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      01-25-2022, 01:15 PM   #89
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Is it now impossible to design a BMW or can it be done

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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I read this interview watched the clips and read a lot of comments in this thread about Herr Dukecís designs. As someone with a design degree and a love of all things automotive I watch the great German Brand of BMW being destroyed infuriating and distressing and this codswallop about ďGood Design isnít about pretty or uglyĒ is a completely ludicrous statement.

Herr Dukecís designs; lack elegance, have jarring lines firing off in all directions, arenít cohesive around the vehicle, and apart from the absurd kidney grilles (heís clearly from the school of thought massive brand labels on your clothes make you look cool) there are very few design features left that bear any relation to BMW heritage.

Anyway I was so annoyed it begged the question in the Early 2020s is it now completely and utterly impossible to design a good looking BMW? The craziest thing about this bizarre new design direction is the engineering and technology under the skin is better than ever, class leading in many ways.

So I have; pondered and sketched and rendered. I have renderings of the 3, the 5, the 7, the IX, and Iím now working on the BMW XM and wondered if I dare show them to you would you be interested Iíve tried to do something new whilst using the BMW cues we know so well. Say yes and Iíll share some of my work if youíre curious, just be kind to a shy designer😉
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      01-25-2022, 01:22 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by JCJ007 View Post
So I have; pondered and sketched and rendered. I have renderings of the 3, the 5, the 7, the IX, and Iím now working on the BMW XM and wondered if I dare show them to you would you be interested Iíve tried to do something new whilst using the BMW cues we know so well. Say yes and Iíll share some of my work if youíre curious, just be kind to a shy designer😉
I'm game. Open minded on BMW design and been around BMW from the "New Class" designs of the 1960's.
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      01-25-2022, 02:32 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
Cool man. I mean that sincerely, despite your earlier snark. BMW deserves to hear from both the people who like and dislike their products. Good for you that they are meeting your needs. Me, I've moved on, although as you can see I'm still a little frustrated at the arrogance that they've approached negative feedback.
His feedback are numbers. Only way to prove him wrong are statistics.

So far he is right...
He's been head of design since 2019, which cars has he designed? Most of BMW sales comes from their 'safe' design cars like their 3, 5 and X series.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the design language of the M4, iX and XM become mainstream in the brand.

Remember, brands like Infiniti continued to have sales growth for a few years when they changed their product line to be less performance oriented….It'll be interesting to see what happens in 2-3 years when his designs are more ingrained across the brand.
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      01-25-2022, 03:18 PM   #92
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He's been head of design since 2019, which cars has he designed? Most of BMW sales comes from their 'safe' design cars like their 3, 5 and X series.
I think I agree with you, generally. But - IIRC from another thread not long back, sales of the 4 series was way up, maybe double or so, where the 3 was flat. It implies to me that people are digging the new grille. I think X4 sales are up as well wit the X3 flat or down a bit. If these things are his influence, I don't know, and course it's only starting. But if he gets credit, good or bad, it seems his work is creating additional sales.

(I don't follow who's who and what they do at BMW or get credit for so I could be off base here)
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      01-25-2022, 03:31 PM   #93
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You can argue whether his designs are beautiful or ugly, but you can’t argue with the fact that they caught everyone’s attention and are being emotionally debated. BMW is in the news and sales are up. The BMW future is bright.
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      01-25-2022, 04:33 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCJ007 View Post
I read this interview watched the clips and read a lot of comments in this thread about Herr Dukecís designs. As someone with a design degree and a love of all things automotive I watch the great German Brand of BMW being destroyed infuriating and distressing and this codswallop about ďGood Design isnít about pretty or uglyĒ is a completely ludicrous statement.

Herr Dukecís designs; lack elegance, have jarring lines firing off in all directions, arenít cohesive around the vehicle, and apart from the absurd kidney grilles (heís clearly from the school of thought massive brand labels on your clothes make you look cool) there are very few design features left that bear any relation to BMW heritage.

Anyway I was so annoyed it begged the question in the Early 2020s is it now completely and utterly impossible to design a good looking BMW? The craziest thing about this bizarre new design direction is the engineering and technology under the skin is better than ever, class leading in many ways.

So I have; pondered and sketched and rendered. I have renderings of the 3, the 5, the 7, the IX, and Iím now working on the BMW XM and wondered if I dare show them to you would you be interested Iíve tried to do something new whilst using the BMW cues we know so well. Say yes and Iíll share some of my work if youíre curious, just be kind to a shy designer😉

Go for it. It has to be better than his!
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      01-25-2022, 04:56 PM   #95
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Meanwhile it’s the highest selling M3 in it’s history. So BMW pissed off a bunch of traditionalist 50 year old men that are emotionally uncomfortable with change. So what?? Look how many new people they brought in. I think the G80 is beautiful. It’s the best looking sport sedan in the market right now in my personal opinion. I bought a BMW because of the G80. Every time I looked at a BMW throughout the last 30 years I always said the same thing to myself. Every freaking grill looks the same on every model. What a boring brand of vehicle. That’s changing now. Awesome.

Last edited by Patton250; 01-25-2022 at 08:10 PM..
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      01-26-2022, 04:57 AM   #96
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Thanks well here goes the first one was some quick sketches of the 3, 5 and 7 I rendered them up in colour to give them some shape my next renderings are better this was a quick look to see what these cars may look like and I am happy to revisit and explore them further at some point. Anyway I wanted to try something new glass roofs a Hoffmiester sharkfin, I have interlinked the kidney grille with the headlamps and repeated the same graphic on the back. The Eagle eyed among you will spot the licence plates are from famous BMWs. I hope you like them. Also i struggled to get the image for you to see.

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      01-26-2022, 08:01 AM   #97
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I like your sketches. BMW won't hire you.
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      01-26-2022, 08:42 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
I like your sketches. BMW won't hire you.
Thank you and whilst that would be nice that wasnít my plan thereís better designs to come watch this space. Anyway they are reviewing crayon drawings from primary schools to train up Dukecís replacement.
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      01-26-2022, 01:08 PM   #99
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Go to 26:00 in this video and listen what he has to say about the iX design. I entirely share his sentiment. Another great design job by BMW!

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      01-28-2022, 10:40 AM   #100
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So let’s show you my version of the IX I again tried some new ideas to see how the IX which under the skin is an engineering tour de force could look better and more like a BMW. I have retained the floating roof and proportions.


Last edited by JCJ007; 01-29-2022 at 06:11 AM..
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      01-28-2022, 11:38 AM   #101
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I have own M3 for 20 years, and the G80 is the first that is insignificant to me. Always looking forward to get the next one, and then it just stopped. I don’t find the grill offensive like most of the complaints, my problem is that this M3 look like no M3. It looks like something less than else.

This guy Dukec is correct - the styling of this car in particular is not pretty or ugly, it is just unremarkable. I want a BMW that looks like a BMW, that makes me turn my head to look at it when I get out. This G80 (and the 3-, and especially the 4-Series) wants to look like something that somebody else is already doing. Nothing original, nothing new. Just bigger, flatter, fatter, and away from BMW style as much as possible. My problem with this Dukec styling is that the guy is doing what other stylists are doing in other cars, and bringing that styling to BMW. This will bring more customers to BMW for sure, customers that were never attracted to BMW styling. That’s pretty much the purpose of hiring this guy. Hopefully, the number of customers like me that find this styling derivative and irrelevant will be less than the new customers coming.
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      01-28-2022, 11:48 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
I have own M3 for 20 years, and the G80 is the first that is insignificant to me. Always looking forward to get the next one, and then it just stopped. I donít find the grill offensive like most of the complaints, my problem is that this M3 look like no M3. It looks like something less than else.

This guy Dukec is correct - the styling of this car in particular is not pretty or ugly, it is just unremarkable. I want a BMW that looks like a BMW, that makes me turn my head to look at it when I get out. This G80 (and the 3-, and especially the 4-Series) wants to look like something that somebody else is already doing. Nothing original, nothing new. Just bigger, flatter, fatter, and away from BMW style as much as possible. My problem with this Dukec styling is that the guy is doing what other stylists are doing in other cars, and bringing that styling to BMW. This will bring more customers to BMW for sure, customers that were never attracted to BMW styling. Thatís pretty much the purpose of hiring this guy. Hopefully, the number of customers like me that find this styling derivative and irrelevant will be less than the new customers coming.
Itís interesting that you and so many others find yourself in the situation where you want the front of your car to look the same for more than 30 straight years. I donít get it. The rest of the driving world disagrees with you. Iíve seen nothing but excitement about the G80 and the sales prove that also. Not to mention technology wise, speed and agility itís far far superior to its predecessors. So all you guys are going to miss out on that over a kidney grille. Itís just weird. Someone had mentioned in a different thread on this very subject that Porsche guys are the same. One little change and they all flip out.
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      01-28-2022, 12:02 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
It’s interesting that you and so many others find yourself in the situation where you want the front of your car to look the same for more than 30 straight years. I don’t get it. The rest of the driving world disagrees with you. I’ve seen nothing but excitement about the G80 and the sales prove that also. Not to mention technology wise, speed and agility it’s far far superior to its predecessors. So all you guys are going to miss out on that over a kidney grille. It’s just weird. Someone had mentioned in a different thread on this very subject that Porsche guys are the same. One little change and they all flip out.
It seems to me that you are missing the point of my opinion - the grill is not the problem, the driving is not the problem, the whole thing is a problem to me. Hopefully, again, customers like me that are not going to buy an M3 this time will be less than the new customers coming in.

And, it is interesting that you notice that "Porsche guys" have the same opinion - that's fundamentally the reason you cannot get a 911 right now without paying thru the gazoo or waiting months/year, old 911 are priced like Ferrari, and Porsche does not mess around with this styling for more than 50 years. The 911 provides Porsche with the highest profit per unit than any other Porsche model, and in the industry overall. They know who they are selling to, they know how particular this customer base is, and they know that this styling adds customers, never subtracts. They know that styling is not "pretty or ugly"; styling is great or not, never irrelevant.
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      01-28-2022, 12:21 PM   #104
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I don't mind change, can't expect the car to look the same for 30 years. But I do like things to evolve. BMW's were always easily recognizable after the changes, and had that "looks great" thing going on as always.

The current stuff feels a bit like "me too". Everyone's doing huge grilles, I suppose we should too. And 3D taillights, so we should too.

The lines stopped flowing and being smooth and sexy and started looking creased and robotic. That's not bad unto itself but it just doesn't seem to work. Take the badges off and is it clearly a BMW or just maybe one.

Opinions are like.... you know.
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      01-28-2022, 12:52 PM   #105
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Verbal diarrhea from "Damage" with stupid analogies...

A man with a big nose was born that way.
An ugly car was designed by him this way.

Yeah Damage, just quit this job if you have guts.

The problem is, once he is out of here, no one will hire a guy with this portfolio...
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      01-28-2022, 01:00 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
It seems to me that you are missing the point of my opinion - the grill is not the problem, the driving is not the problem, the whole thing is a problem to me. Hopefully, again, customers like me that are not going to buy an M3 this time will be less than the new customers coming in.

And, it is interesting that you notice that "Porsche guys" have the same opinion - that's fundamentally the reason you cannot get a 911 right now without paying thru the gazoo or waiting months/year, old 911 are priced like Ferrari, and Porsche does not mess around with this styling for more than 50 years. The 911 provides Porsche with the highest profit per unit than any other Porsche model, and in the industry overall. They know who they are selling to, they know how particular this customer base is, and they know that this styling adds customers, never subtracts. They know that styling is not "pretty or ugly"; styling is great or not, never irrelevant.
Brother itís the grille. You can say itís not but it is. If they had came out with an identical car with the same grille as the M5 or M8 your group wouldíve been all over it. Itís the only thing thatís different about this vehicle with the exception of this vehicle is a hell of a lot faster than its predecessors. I would say just buy an M5 and move on. I can tell you this though BMW is definitely moving on from a design standpoint. I think itís something a car manufacturer should do every 30 to 50 years.

As far as Porsche goes itís in a totally different league than BMW just like Lamborghini or Ferrari. It has its own cult following and has had an extreme amount of help from movies and the media throughout the years. iím a huge Watch Guy so let me use that as a comparison. BMW and Mercedes-Benz are Rolex and Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini are AP and Patek. If AP even thought about changing anything about the Royal Oak itís loyal following would flip out just like whatís happening with the new G80. So 50 years later AP only has one style of watch thatís recognized worldwide. Just like BMW and their one style of grille. Until now of course.
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      01-28-2022, 01:09 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
It’s interesting that you and so many others find yourself in the situation where you want the front of your car to look the same for more than 30 straight years. I don’t get it. The rest of the driving world disagrees with you. I’ve seen nothing but excitement about the G80 and the sales prove that also. Not to mention technology wise, speed and agility it’s far far superior to its predecessors. So all you guys are going to miss out on that over a kidney grille. It’s just weird. Someone had mentioned in a different thread on this very subject that Porsche guys are the same. One little change and they all flip out.
Of course the car is superior. It is newer and more evolved. Too bad that this idiot screwed up and that the design can not match all the engineering that lays under.
Yeah, for me the design is so bad that I miss out all that over a grille. I did pass on this one and gave up my allocation. I bought something else that I like and that represents me and that makes me happy to own.
And is not only the grille; the missing HM kink, the regular 3 series rear door "slapped" on there, hence the terrible connection between the door and that beautiful bulged fender which is absolutely unacceptable, and so on...
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      01-28-2022, 01:19 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Teutonic View Post
Of course the car is superior. It is newer and more evolved. Too bad that this idiot screwed up and that the design can not match all the engineering that lays under.
Yeah, for me the design is so bad that I miss out all that over a grille. I did pass on this one and gave up my allocation. I bought something else that I like and that represents me and that makes me happy to own.
And is not only the grille; the missing HM kink, the regular 3 series rear door "slapped" on there, hence the terrible connection between the door and that beautiful bulged fender which is absolutely unacceptable, and so on...
They canít make everyone happy but sales show they have made a great decision. The car is a massive hit. Thatís obvious now. Always follow the money.
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      01-28-2022, 01:54 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Encanto View Post
I have own M3 for 20 years, and the G80 is the first that is insignificant to me. Always looking forward to get the next one, and then it just stopped. I donít find the grill offensive like most of the complaints, my problem is that this M3 look like no M3. It looks like something less than else.

This guy Dukec is correct - the styling of this car in particular is not pretty or ugly, it is just unremarkable. I want a BMW that looks like a BMW, that makes me turn my head to look at it when I get out. This G80 (and the 3-, and especially the 4-Series) wants to look like something that somebody else is already doing. Nothing original, nothing new. Just bigger, flatter, fatter, and away from BMW style as much as possible. My problem with this Dukec styling is that the guy is doing what other stylists are doing in other cars, and bringing that styling to BMW. This will bring more customers to BMW for sure, customers that were never attracted to BMW styling. Thatís pretty much the purpose of hiring this guy. Hopefully, the number of customers like me that find this styling derivative and irrelevant will be less than the new customers coming.
You used what to me is a key word: fatter. That is what the snout makes the car into. And a fat car does not look like a performance car any more than a 300 pound 6 foot tall human looks like an NBA performer.
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      01-28-2022, 02:29 PM   #110
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Just for those who want to give this model a miss. A striking example in the metal, whether you like it or not.
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