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      04-30-2013, 02:04 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam
Not really. I would probably still have the F20. I want a practical hatchback with rear wheel drive. I would prefer it to be slightly smaller and lighter than it is, but I see no real competitors, maybe except the Toyota GT86.

There goes your cred.
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      04-30-2013, 02:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
Not really. I would probably still have the F20. I want a practical hatchback with rear wheel drive.
I agree...M3 has always been my dream car. However, if I had the money now, I would probably go for the F20 M135i.
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      04-30-2013, 03:44 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
The 128i would also have been on on par concerning in gear accelerations with the torque matching the Golf (350Nm), now the 125i lags significantly (310Nm) and also here it will leave victory to the Golf. So a GTI will feel superior to a 125i once it's rolling. As a daily user, the Golf will reign and feel superior.
So by the same logic, the car to buy is actually the 125d.
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      04-30-2013, 01:46 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by AusF20 View Post
It is simple, BMW is not building cars to take sales away from VW Subaru etc
VW and the other Europeans like Renault are trying to keep ahead of the Koreans and Japanese in the bang for buck sector. VW leads that market because of its quality build and performance.
VW have always been just that bit more in price.
No one puts VW in the same class as Audi, BMW or Mercedes
BMW, Audi and Merc are in a different market sector.
BMW reserves its real power and drive in the M3, M5 etc
The one series is built as a BMW sport hatch with some attitude for 'drivers' at an affordable BMW price. (Luxo-german quality & performance)
VW knows that most Boy racers will always want the fast and furious at a price.
Bang for buck the VW GTi is a good buy, but I will take the BMW thanks
if price was not the issue, we would all have a M5 or a Aston Martin, Ferrari etc etc

There is no evidence that the Golf is the lesser car. When you sit in it and drive it, you'll understand. German testers rank it above the BMW and I will be surprised when the GTI is not ending in lead of the 125i in the upcoming comparo's. I see no objective reasons to belittle the Golf whether it would be a wannabe premium.

Yes, there is less aura around the brand, but that is all marketing BS they pump in our heads to make us spend more money and inflate their margins.
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      04-30-2013, 01:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by elstoof View Post
So by the same logic, the car to buy is actually the 125d.
No, of course not, you ignore too many parameters in your equation.

It's not that the car has a VW badge on it that the Nms and KWs are made of cheap fabric and the ones of BMW are made of silver and gold, hmmm???
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      04-30-2013, 02:51 PM   #28
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What I like about the Golf GTI is that you immediately see that it is no ordinary Golf. With the 125i, the only thing separating it from the 114i (if I'm not mistaken), is the dual pipes.
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      04-30-2013, 03:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
No, of course not, you ignore too many parameters in your equation.
Its you that's ignoring all the parameters when you say that the 125i just needs another 40Nm of torque and it'll be "better" than the GTI.
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      04-30-2013, 03:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bradbury View Post
What I like about the Golf GTI is that you immediately see that it is no ordinary Golf. With the 125i, the only thing separating it from the 114i (if I'm not mistaken), is the dual pipes.
Apart from the 114i not being available in M Sport, that's precisely what I like about my 125i. It's debadged and it takes someone to know what they're looking for to spot the difference, I really don't want or need to have GTI or equivalent badges slapped over it. The Boy Racer look doesn't appeal to me and I don't want some plonker in a VXR revving beside me at the lights when ferrying my family around.
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      04-30-2013, 04:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by elstoof View Post
Apart from the 114i not being available in M Sport
It might not be available as M sport in the UK, but it is in other markets.
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      05-01-2013, 05:38 AM   #32
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Sorry for not checking all the other markets.
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      05-01-2013, 05:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elstoof View Post
Its you that's ignoring all the parameters when you say that the 125i just needs another 40Nm of torque and it'll be "better" than the GTI.

Yes. I'd prefer the 128i over the GTI any day. I will not prefer the 125i over the GTI performance though. Please, don't blame me, it's BMW trying to leave sufficient distance to the M135i.

A 128i would have drawn some of the M135i buyers into the 128i. On the other hand, not offering the 128i will pull a lot of 125i prospects into the Golf as from now. So, as we debate, BMW is running some scenarios to check what to do with this new GTI offering...
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      05-02-2013, 03:40 AM   #34
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Some performance options for 125i might be offered
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      05-03-2013, 10:05 AM   #35
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wow seems great, set it off with the right color/wheels and it seems like a real winner



That E-diff seems like a huge step forward.

Hope it kicks bmw ass tbh in a fair comparison =) anything that could wake bmw up is a good thing. Time for them to get back to essential core-values like producing high-quality products that stands out from the rest rather than producing faulty products under a cascade of empty words/marketing BS
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      05-03-2013, 11:33 AM   #36
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There's not one thing the golf gti offers over my 125d. In fact, I get more torque, cheaper to run, rear wheel drive and BMW pedigree for the same money (gti specced up to same level as me 5d)

The 1 series is a more mature car. If I was 20 I would want the gti for sures but in my 30s 1 series has much more appeal
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      05-03-2013, 12:32 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tawia View Post
There's not one thing the golf gti offers over my 125d. In fact, I get more torque, cheaper to run
It's not very relevant comparing torque and how cheap it is to run when you put a petrol engine up against a diesel. The Golf GTD vs the BMW 120d would be a fair comparison. I'd actually love to see these two put up against each other.
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      05-03-2013, 05:00 PM   #38
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[/QUOTE]
It's not very relevant comparing torque and how cheap it is to run when you put a petrol engine up against a diesel. The Golf GTD vs the BMW 120d would be a fair comparison. I'd actually love to see these two put up against each other.[/QUOTE]
How times have changed eh? Not fair to compare petrol to diesel.. Awesome
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      05-03-2013, 05:23 PM   #39
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A 118d has more torque and is cheaper to run than the 125i. Yeah, it's a fucking diesel! They tend to have a lot of torque and are cheaper to run.
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      05-03-2013, 05:50 PM   #40
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What is the point of comparing engine torque anyway? Power matters. Not only peak power, but the entire power graph. Torque is a meaningless figure for car performance unless you know the RPM, so you can compute the power. Torque is interesting when selecting dimensions inside the gearbox, though.

If you doubt what I say here, think about what the gearbox does to the torque. The power tells you how much torque there is left at the wheels at a given speed, which is what counts. The torque at the engine tells you nothing about how the car will perform.

100 hp at 2000 RPM and 100 hp at 4000 RPM will perform the same way.
100 Nm at 4000 RPM will perform a lot better than 100 Nm at 2000 RPM, since it equals twice as much power.
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      05-03-2013, 07:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
What is the point of comparing engine torque anyway? Power matters. Not only peak power, but the entire power graph. Torque is a meaningless figure for car performance unless you know the RPM, so you can compute the power. Torque is interesting when selecting dimensions inside the gearbox, though.

If you doubt what I say here, think about what the gearbox does to the torque. The power tells you how much torque there is left at the wheels at a given speed, which is what counts. The torque at the engine tells you nothing about how the car will perform.

100 hp at 2000 RPM and 100 hp at 4000 RPM will perform the same way.
100 Nm at 4000 RPM will perform a lot better than 100 Nm at 2000 RPM, since it equals twice as much power.
Endulge me... Put a 125i and a 125d in 3rd gear at 20mph. Now ask full throttle in both. Which one will be arriving first at 60mph??

I'am certain you know the answer...
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      05-03-2013, 07:32 PM   #42
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Ovekam, I couldn't resist to calculate this:

125i, total reduction in 3rd = 5,1221
125d has 4,746
both have a wheel travel of exactly 2 meters per 360degree turn.

so 20mph= 8,9m/s and 60mph=26,67m/s
or 20mph= 534m/min and 60mph = 1600m/min

Consequently,

with this wheel, you need an axle rotation of 267rpm to attain 20mph and 800rpm to attain 60mph for both cars.

125i revolves between: 1367 and 4098 rpm
125d revolves between: 1267 and 3797 rpm

but torque is multiplied with 5,1221 and 4.746 respectively.

So to short cut... the 125d wins hands down. And I guess that it is this experience that prevails.
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      05-03-2013, 07:38 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
What is the point of comparing engine torque anyway? Power matters. Not only peak power, but the entire power graph. Torque is a meaningless figure for car performance unless you know the RPM, so you can compute the power. Torque is interesting when selecting dimensions inside the gearbox, though.

If you doubt what I say here, think about what the gearbox does to the torque. The power tells you how much torque there is left at the wheels at a given speed, which is what counts. The torque at the engine tells you nothing about how the car will perform.

100 hp at 2000 RPM and 100 hp at 4000 RPM will perform the same way.
100 Nm at 4000 RPM will perform a lot better than 100 Nm at 2000 RPM, since it equals twice as much power.
Endulge me... Put a 125i and a 125d in 3rd gear at 20mph. Now ask full throttle in both. Which one will be arriving first at 60mph??

I'am certain you know the answer...
Change back to second gear, bye bye diesel.
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      05-04-2013, 02:23 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
So to short cut... the 125d wins hands down. And I guess that it is this experience that prevails.
And why does it win? Because it has slightly more power in this engine speed range.

As was also pointed out, if you select a more suitable gear for the petrol engine, the diesel car will struggle to keep up.

To make it more clear what matters, consider a race between me on a bicycle, and a motorcycle:

Me on bicycle:
400 Nm @ 0 RPM, 0.5 hp @ 90 RPM. 100 kg

MC
70Nm @ 10000 RPM, 100 hp @ 14000 RPM, 250 kg

I have a clear advantage on weight and torque, but who will win a 60 meter sprint with standing start? Obviously the motorcycle, since it has more power.
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