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      04-25-2013, 03:14 AM   #1
rs-6
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Golf GTI "Performance" vs 125i

Just watched the first review of the new GTI by Autocar. It's absolutely stunning IMO. Especially the Performance-package (and more specific the differential-option) appeals to me.
Not that I regret my choice for the 125i, but I think BMW would definitely make a big mistake if it doesn't come up with extra M Performance parts to at least match what VW is offering. The M Performance chip is going to be offered soon, so that's going to be covered. But there is still no sign of an M Performance differential for the 125i and the M135i, I am certain that there would be a big market for an upgrade like this. The current 'DSC off'-mode is ok, but it certainly cannot match a real differential.

what are your thoughts?

Greetings,

rs-6


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      04-25-2013, 03:57 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rs-6 View Post
Just watched the first review of the new GTI by Autocar. It's absolutely stunning IMO. Especially the Performance-package (and more specific the differential-option) appeals to me.
Not that I regret my choice for the 125i, but I think BMW would definitely make a big mistake if it doesn't come up with extra M Performance parts to at least match what VW is offering. The M Performance chip is going to be offered soon, so that's going to be covered. But there is still no sign of an M Performance differential for the 125i and the M135i, I am certain that there would be a big market for an upgrade like this. The current 'DSC off'-mode is ok, but it certainly cannot match a real differential.

what are your thoughts?

Greetings,

rs-6


looks like a winner to me. if you dont mind the badge then youd have a hard time looking past it for a 125i

in regards to the diff option, dont all the bmws come with an 'e-diff' as standard? I know its not a mechanical one but it electronically slows the inner wheel around a corner. is this what the golf has or does it actually have a full mechanical one?
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      04-25-2013, 04:05 AM   #3
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well, the so-called E-diff on the f20/F21 is ok for an occasional power-slide, but certainly cannot match the track-advantages of an electronically steered mechanical differential (which comes with the Performance-package on the GTI) IMO. It reacts too slow and too random, it somehow reminds me a bit of an older haldex-4WD system

Last edited by rs-6; 04-25-2013 at 04:11 AM..
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      04-25-2013, 04:23 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rs-6 View Post
well, the so-called E-diff on the f20/F21 is ok for an occasional power-slide, but certainly cannot match the track-advantages of an electronically steered mechanical differential (which comes with the Performance-package on the GTI) IMO. It reacts too slow and too random, it somehow reminds me a bit of an older haldex-4WD system
well in that case id take the golf!...
but then you would have the same car as every second person on the road...
so on second thoughts, id take the bmw
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      04-25-2013, 04:26 AM   #5
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It's an electronically controlled mechanical diff apparently, I think the M5 has something similar. First time it's been used in a FWD car by all accounts. EVO had a brief go which you can read on the website and there should be a full review in yesterday's magazine.
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      04-25-2013, 05:47 AM   #6
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That new GTI looks very very strong, so glad VW have gone back to the drawing board with this one because the GTI was slowly dropping out of the picture when stacked up against the competition and having owned two VW's I hold them in a very high regard. That diff alone will turn peoples heads, who are in the market for a hot hatch.

I agree with OP, BMW could offer a few more M performance parts, the vast marjority that they offer are exterior mods which ultimately don't do anything extra for driving experience.

When he mentioned the price being just north of 26k, I bet he wasn't including all the optionals he said help improve the GTI throughout the review.


Put it this way, I've just been on the VW configurator, for a GTI Performance with DSG, Metalic paint, 19'' alloys (which are much nicer) adaptive chassis control and Dynaudio speakers its 32,830.00... Thats a few grand shy of a pretty decently specced M135i nevermind a 125i. Price (especially optional costs) is where VW shoot themselves in the foot tbh

Last edited by Mr Buck; 04-25-2013 at 06:27 AM.. Reason: missed a bit
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      04-25-2013, 09:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rs-6 View Post
The current 'DSC off'-mode is ok, but it certainly cannot match a real differential.

what are your thoughts?
I think BMW should improve the DSC-Off mode by letting it use the Sport engine mapping instead of Comfort. That would be an easy firmware fix for them, and a definite improvement for us.
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      04-25-2013, 01:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
I think BMW should improve the DSC-Off mode by letting it use the Sport engine mapping instead of Comfort. That would be an easy firmware fix for them, and a definite improvement for us.
this, together with adding the oil temperature to the BC
Ovekvam, as you seem to be a sporty driver: what are your thoughts on the current DSC-off mode and a potential M Performance differential?
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      04-25-2013, 03:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rs-6 View Post
this, together with adding the oil temperature to the BC
Ovekvam, as you seem to be a sporty driver: what are your thoughts on the current DSC-off mode and a potential M Performance differential?
That would of course be an improvement, making the car more predictable beyond the limit. A TorSen-type limited slip differential (like the Quaife) would even work fine with the DSC/DTC system.

I am surprised about how well the stock e-diff is working. Our 116i does not have all that much traction issues since it doesn't have all that much power, but I can go earlier on the throttle in corners with this car than I have been used to before. When the e-diff does its thing, you can feel the car rotate slightly into the corner, killing off the power-on understeer you would otherwise expect from the weight shift to the back.

Despite drifting a whole weekend on an ice track, the rear brake pads do not show excessive wear.
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      04-27-2013, 06:35 PM   #10
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Golf GTI is better than the 125i. But to be honest, as from the launch of the Golf VII, every body knew that the new GTI would be a peach, no?
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      04-28-2013, 01:55 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Golf GTI is better than the 125i.
Better at what? Certainly not weight distribution and drive layout, which are the most important key factors for me.
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      04-28-2013, 02:24 AM   #12
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Bigger boot, which is good because once you get enough of your gear filled in there you may balance out the weight distribution a bit

Slightly more seriously, aren't car journo's are usually moaning about Haldex diffs but stick one sideways on a GTI's front axle and suddenly it's a masterpiece.
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      04-28-2013, 08:37 AM   #13
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Well it is the flag ship car of vw, honestly no hatchback when it comes down to money value build etc the Gti takes it. I'm coming form a scirocco to an m135i and honestly they are really different. I disagree with the guy I had the acc option in the Rocco and really I only used it twice in 5 years it was pointless cause once you reach top speeds everything becomes firmer so no need for that. All in all against a 125i I would go for the Gti just cause its cheaper can have loads of options practicality and its the car that always wins that particular bracket. The Gti is more of a first car for someone graduating high school, then you move on to something more sophisticated/better built like bmw or merc.
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      04-29-2013, 02:40 AM   #14
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In terms of features/package/price, we have to admit that the Golf is a winner. However, I would never buy a Golf if I had the money to buy a 125i. You can call me BMW fanboy but, really, I am tired of seeing a Golf in every corner of every street and its exterior is really boring (except from the very nice wheels), don't you think so?
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      04-29-2013, 02:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dim73 View Post
In terms of features/package/price, we have to admit that the Golf is a winner. However, I would never buy a Golf if I had the money to buy a 125i. You can call me BMW fanboy but, really, I am tired of seeing a Golf in every corner of every street and its exterior is really boring (except from the very nice wheels), don't you think so?
For me the GTI wins: faster, better fuel efficiency, lighter, same robustness, a bit more spacious, better equipped, 10% lower priced, maybe a bit dull but not as ugly. BMW should have brought the 128i instead of the 125i to keep in lead of the pack.
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      04-29-2013, 02:53 PM   #16
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Well the golf lacks rwd. I have driven a scirocco 2.0 tsi dsg which was chipped from 200 to 250 hp. Yes its fast, but it has loads of torquesteer and understeer. 3rd gear in corner you cant push the throttle. 1st or 2nd gear and little bit humid or worse, cant use the throttle. Very cold and roads being a bit salty 4th gear on highway and wheelspin. And can go on and on...

No for me a rwd car please. When i picked up my m135i in sam situations as above i could very easily modulate with the throttle to get anywhere.

Anyways the golf gti is fwd too i assume? Then it will be same shit as with the scirocco. 125i for me then please
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      04-29-2013, 03:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
BMW should have brought the 128i instead of the 125i to keep in lead of the pack.
How would a few extra horsepower and torques make such an impact to elevate the BMW above the new GTI? The dynamics would be exactly the same but you'd go a bit quicker to 60. Whoop de doo.

Now a nice differential option on the other hand...
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      04-29-2013, 04:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhold View Post
Well the golf lacks rwd. I have driven a scirocco 2.0 tsi dsg which was chipped from 200 to 250 hp. Yes its fast, but it has loads of torquesteer and understeer. 3rd gear in corner you cant push the throttle. 1st or 2nd gear and little bit humid or worse, cant use the throttle. Very cold and roads being a bit salty 4th gear on highway and wheelspin. And can go on and on...

No for me a rwd car please. When i picked up my m135i in sam situations as above i could very easily modulate with the throttle to get anywhere.

Anyways the golf gti is fwd too i assume? Then it will be same shit as with the scirocco. 125i for me then please
The performance GTI has a diff lock, which apparently makes a HUGE difference. It seems to eliminate torque steer (and the GTI has significant more torque than the 125i) and it seems to enable sling shot accelerations like an AWD. All tests until now, including the German ones, seem to confirm this.

When you ask me, that's impressive for a FWD hothatch. Besides,don't over laud RWD, even with my "sluggish" 520d it's easy to spill torque in the outer rear wheel in 2nd gear. I admit, it doesn't bring torque steer, but it doesn't bring acceleration either. So I can only assume that a 125i and certainly an M135i RWD would massively benefit from a locking diff. Which they haven't...
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      04-29-2013, 04:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elstoof View Post
How would a few extra horsepower and torques make such an impact to elevate the BMW above the new GTI? The dynamics would be exactly the same but you'd go a bit quicker to 60. Whoop de doo.

Now a nice differential option on the other hand...
Yes it would, 0-62 acceleration would have been dealt with in 5,8seconds with a 128i, leaving the GTI massively behind. The Golf can't go faster as it does today, since it's on the limit of what the poor front wheels can bring to the road. the diff lock can't help in a straight line either, it only brings releaf in turns.

The 128i would also have been on on par concerning in gear accelerations with the torque matching the Golf (350Nm), now the 125i lags significantly (310Nm) and also here it will leave victory to the Golf. So a GTI will feel superior to a 125i once it's rolling. As a daily user, the Golf will reign and feel superior.

So why did BMW leave the playground for the Golf now, since they have everything at hand?
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      04-30-2013, 12:10 AM   #20
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Cars like the Civic Type R and Focus RS had limited slip differentials and FWD, and they had problems with darting all over the place on twisty, bumpy roads. Maybe the Golf will have the same issue.
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      04-30-2013, 12:43 AM   #21
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It is simple, BMW is not building cars to take sales away from VW Subaru etc
VW and the other Europeans like Renault are trying to keep ahead of the Koreans and Japanese in the bang for buck sector. VW leads that market because of its quality build and performance.
VW have always been just that bit more in price.
No one puts VW in the same class as Audi, BMW or Mercedes
BMW, Audi and Merc are in a different market sector.
BMW reserves its real power and drive in the M3, M5 etc
The one series is built as a BMW sport hatch with some attitude for 'drivers' at an affordable BMW price. (Luxo-german quality & performance)
VW knows that most Boy racers will always want the fast and furious at a price.
Bang for buck the VW GTi is a good buy, but I will take the BMW thanks
if price was not the issue, we would all have a M5 or a Aston Martin, Ferrari etc etc
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      04-30-2013, 12:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AusF20 View Post
if price was not the issue, we would all have a M5 or a Aston Martin, Ferrari etc etc
Not really. I would probably still have the F20. I want a practical hatchback with rear wheel drive. I would prefer it to be slightly smaller and lighter than it is, but I see no real competitors, maybe except the Toyota GT86.
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