[Bicho]

When will be on the market?

[Bicho]

Any of the new 1 Series - Hatchback getting the N54 or N55? That could be kind of rocket??

[jozeff]

Bicho mate, i've been asking that question almost every month for the last 6 months!!!! I hope SCOTT can shed some light.... ide LOVE a 135i hatchback....

[Cornhusker]

m2 with 4 zylinders is fine, as long as it redlines at 7500, and 350 hp from 6k-7500. A direct injected evo motor. Make it half the m5 motor? 2.2 l with only slightly higher redline and slightly bigger twin scroll than a m5 motor and your there.

[Jake C]

Originally Posted by Cornhusker

m2 with 4 zylinders is fine, as long as it redlines at 7500, and 350 hp from 6k-7500. A direct injected evo motor. Make it half the m5 motor? 2.2 l with only slightly higher redline and slightly bigger twin scroll than a m5 motor and your there.

Hmm fine line. If they push the 4 cylinder past the 335i in HP and TQ then they will have to increase the 335i. My thought is that the M2 or Z2M will carry a M tweaked N20 good for maybe 285HP and 295 Lb/Ft Tq. More than a standard N20 less than an N55.

- J

[pikcachu]

So you say the M2 will have less power than the current 1M or even the 135i?

makes no sense to me...

Originally Posted by Jake C

Hmm fine line. If they push the 4 cylinder past the 335i in HP and TQ then they will have to increase the 335i. My thought is that the M2 or Z2M will carry a M tweaked N20 good for maybe 285HP and 295 Lb/Ft Tq. More than a standard N20 less than an N55.

- J

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Jake C

Hmm fine line. If they push the 4 cylinder past the 335i in HP and TQ then they will have to increase the 335i.

Not really, because this is an M car. The M V8 (S63) makes as much power as the non-M V12 (N74), and the upcoming M 6 cylinder will make more power than the non-M V8 (N63). So, the M I4 can similarly make more power than the non-M I6 (N55).

[Jake C]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Not really, because this is an M car. The M V8 (S63) makes as much power as the non-M V12 (N74), and the upcoming M 6 cylinder will make more power than the non-M V8 (N63). So, the M I4 can similarly make more power than the non-M I6 (N55).

Excellent point. I stand corrected!

- J

[manuelf]

Are there any updated "rumors" regarding engine choice of the upcoming F22 M2?

My thoughts about this:
As there are currently signs (according to this thread) that a F21 M135i is coming with a N55 320hp engine, I now somewhat question the possibility that the upcoming M2 is getting a FI 4cyl engine.
If the base of such an I4 Turbo would be the 2 liter N20, I can't imagine how they manage to achieve getting notable higher output than 320hp out of N20... what is needed imho due to the following aspects:

1. F22 M2 will not be that much lighter than normal F22 N55 due to costs. So it definetly needs at least the same or better more power.

2. The competition (namely Audi, which is pushing the R5-Turbo of TT-RS/RS-3 currently to 380 hp in the upcoming TT-RS+) is putting out way over 350hp in the future and are also investing heavily in making their cars lighter...

So even if BMW is abandoning the idea of putting a 320hp N55 in the F2x platform it doesn't help in permitting to equip the M2 with a ~300 hp engine as the competition doesn't care ....

[mkoesel]

I wonder if VAG will continue with the I5 TFSI past the current generation of cars? They seem to be backing away from the N/A I5 from what I can tell, so will the turbo version continue? I could see them falling back on the I4 2.0 TFSI for future PQ3*-based performance offerings. Just thinking out loud there.

Anyway, AFAIK, the M2 engine situation is no more clear today than it has been in the past. Even the M3/M4 engine is still a topic of debate. Maybe the M 6 cylinder will blow us away as far as hp/L achievements, paving way for a similar I4.

As for the chance of 6 cyl 1/2 series, maybe it will become more clear after they've unveiled the 3-door and the N20-based models in Geneva.

Originally Posted by manuelf

Are there any updated "rumors" regarding engine choice of the upcoming F22 M2?

My thoughts about this:
As there are currently signs (according to this thread) that a F21 M135i is coming with a N55 320hp engine, I now somewhat question the possibility that the upcoming M2 is getting a FI 4cyl engine.
If the base of such an I4 Turbo would be the 2 liter N20, I can't imagine how they manage to achieve getting notable higher output than 320hp out of N20... what is needed imho due to the following aspects:

1. F22 M2 will not be that much lighter than normal F22 N55 due to costs. So it definetly needs at least the same or better more power.

2. The competition (namely Audi, which is pushing the R5-Turbo of TT-RS/RS-3 currently to 380 hp in the upcoming TT-RS+) is putting out way over 350hp in the future and are also investing heavily in making their cars lighter...

So even if BMW is abandoning the idea of putting a 320hp N55 in the F2x platform it doesn't help in permitting to equip the M2 with a ~300 hp engine as the competition doesn't care ....

[Red Bread]

Is it out of the question for BMW to actually do something unique and allow a 320hp 235i to exist at say 3,300 pounds (1,500kg) and an M2 with an N20 with around 306hp and 3,100 pounds (1,400kg)?

Lighter weight through use of carbon, aluminum and deleting some fluff like insulation and the silly carpeted rear fender liners could allow them to do this. While you'd need to add a limited slip, you could leave the brakes and drivetrain alone, as they'd be dealing with less weight.

I suppose the real challenge would be convincing paper jockeys that a less powerful car could be better than a more powerful one. I won't hold my breath for this, but would be in line for one if they went this route.

[John_01]

I thought it was obvious - All proper BMWs should have inline six cylinder engines!

230i with 2.5 litre inline six cylinder turbo.
M2 with 3.0 litre inline six cylinder turbo.
M3 with 3.3 litre inline six cylinder turbo.

This is what was done historically, and there is no problem applying the same scheme with todays turbo charged engines in a performance context.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I wonder if VAG will continue with the I5 TFSI past the current generation of cars? They seem to be backing away from the N/A I5 from what I can tell, so will the turbo version continue? I could see them falling back on the I4 2.0 TFSI for future PQ3*-based performance offerings. Just thinking out loud there.

This is news to me. I had the impression Audi is quite happy with the 2.5 TFSI - they got positive feedback. Additionally they showed their Quattro concept car in Paris with an 408 hp version of the 5cyl 2.5TFSI...
Their current 2.0 I4 TFSI maxes out at 280hp currently in the Audi TT-S. I dont know whether this engine is able to go beyond 300hp?
I expect only with major changes, which cost money! So - why not stick with the 5cyl. engine?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Anyway, AFAIK, the M2 engine situation is no more clear today than it has been in the past. Even the M3/M4 engine is still a topic of debate. Maybe the M 6 cylinder will blow us away as far as hp/L achievements, paving way for a similar I4.

For the upcoming I6 S55 for the M3/M4 we are not in the dark I think compared to the M2 engine....
S55 will be an I6 N55 reinforced block with new Forced induction technology.
Performance about 450hp. That means "only" 150hp per liter displacement, which is quite conservative... An N20 based I4 for the M2 with the same hp/l performance would just reach 300hp... which is not enough to keep up with the current straight line performance of the 1 M Coupe....

Originally Posted by mkoesel

As for the chance of 6 cyl 1/2 series, maybe it will become more clear after they've unveiled the 3-door and the N20-based models in Geneva.

Yep - so we will have to wait....

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Is it out of the question for BMW to actually do something unique and allow a 320hp 235i to exist at say 3,300 pounds (1,500kg) and an M2 with an N20 with around 306hp and 3,100 pounds (1,400kg)?

Theoretically possible.... but it will do harm for the marketing of the M2 for sure! Of course: There are people which are most interested in driving/handling dynamics of an M2 ... but lots of buyers would be detracted if the M lead model of a product line has lower hp numbers and only the same straight line performance than the top standard/Non-M model!

And it would be the first time in BMW M-History, that a M-follow up model has less hp than its predecessor!

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Lighter weight through use of carbon, aluminum and deleting some fluff like insulation and the silly carpeted rear fender liners could allow them to do this. While you'd need to add a limited slip, you could leave the brakes and drivetrain alone, as they'd be dealing with less weight.

Keep in mind, that the main goal for the M model below the M3 was "making M more affordable to younger buyers". So BMW is very cost limited here. They can not put a lot carbon into this entry model and still have the same price tag for this entry sportscar segment! Moreover the high-volume CFRP production currently starts with the I3 in 2013. Having this technology available (with lower costs) for wider usage in other normal (non BMW i) models will take some time till these new processes worked out....
In the end this means: Getting an M2 80kg lighter than an F20 135i is difficult enough... but that is not enough to make up for a weak 300hp I4 in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I suppose the real challenge would be convincing paper jockeys that a less powerful car could be better than a more powerful one. I won't hold my breath for this, but would be in line for one if they went this route.

This is a BIG challenge. This could only be successful if the M2 - although having 2 cyl. less and 20hp less - beats the F20 M135i clearly not only in driving dynamics but also in straight line.... but in straight line, this would be almost impossible with 20 hp less, 50 NM less and only 50-80kg less weight... not to speak about the current 1M Coupe with 340hp+ and 500NM overboost!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by manuelf

This is news to me. I had the impression Audi is quite happy with the 2.5 TFSI - they got positive feedback. Additionally they showed their Quattro concept car in Paris with an 408 hp version of the 5cyl 2.5TFSI...
Their current 2.0 I4 TFSI maxes out at 280hp currently in the Audi TT-S. I dont know whether this engine is able to go beyond 300hp?
I expect only with major changes, which cost money! So - why not stick with the 5cyl. engine?

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/18/v...th-turbo-four/

Not sure if this applies to all markets or just US or North America. Also, of course, this is just rumor for now.

The 400+hp I5 TFSI is likely to stay a prototype IMHO, or at the most it will be used only in a high end vehicle such as a production version of the Quattro concept.

I think the I4 2.0 TFSI is very capable of 300hp+ with some R&D. Will VAG go this route? I don't know.

For the upcoming I6 S55 for the M3/M4 we are not in the dark I think compared to the M2 engine....
S55 will be an I6 N55 reinforced block with new Forced induction technology.
Performance about 450hp. That means "only" 150hp per liter displacement, which is quite conservative... An N20 based I4 for the M2 with the same hp/l performance would just reach 300hp... which is not enough to keep up with the current straight line performance of the 1 M Coupe....

As far as I know, there is nothing nearly that firm known about the six cylinder turbocharged M engine yet. There is a lot of speculation, yes, and I tend to agree that it will be something like what you describe. But we don't know.

As for the four cylinder turbocharged M engine, there is a little more room to play with displacement from what I know about the block. So, it could be 2.2L, or perhaps even a little more. That could yield 330hp to 350hp which would be just about right.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/18/v...th-turbo-four/

Not sure if this applies to all markets or just US or North America. Also, of course, this is just rumor for now.

The 400+hp I5 TFSI is likely to stay a prototype IMHO, or at the most it will be used only in a high end vehicle such as a production version of the Quattro concept.

I think the I4 2.0 TFSI is very capable of 300hp+ with some R&D. Will VAG go this route? I don't know.

OK - regarding the NA I5 it makes obviously sense for VAG to switch to a FI I4. This is general downsizing...
But for the FI I5? What will Audi tell its customers of an TT-RS+ when they switch to the successor? Will FI-technology in 3-4 years be that sophisticated to pump out 380hp+ from a 2.2/2.3 liter I4 without being laggy/bad responsive as hell?
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

As far as I know, there is nothing nearly that firm known about the six cylinder turbocharged M engine yet. There is a lot of speculation, yes, and I tend to agree that it will be something like what you describe. But we don't know.

As for the four cylinder turbocharged M engine, there is a little more room to play with displacement from what I know about the block. So, it could be 2.2L, or perhaps even a little more. That could yield 330hp to 350hp which would be just about right.

OK - if there is room for changed bore/stroke like you expect... then we would end up at something like 155hp/l - this is a value I can trust in ....
Nevertheless it is technically a huge effort/challenge for the M to develop such an engine which will obviously be compared with the current N54 3 liter Bi-Turbo, which produces the same power with ease...
Do they expect such high sales volume for the M2, that this development pays back?

[NTTY]

Scott said 2M is expected to produce 343HP. The 135/235 should produce 320-326HP.
Cheers

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by manuelf

OK - regarding the NA I5 it makes obviously sense for VAG to switch to a FI I4. This is general downsizing...
But for the FI I5? What will Audi tell its customers of an TT-RS+ when they switch to the successor? Will FI-technology in 3-4 years be that sophisticated to pump out 380hp+ from a 2.2/2.3 liter I4 without being laggy/bad responsive as hell?

As far as I know, there are no current or announced products that use the I5 TFSI with any more than 340hp. Could that change? Sure, but I would not necessarily count on it. Yes, it can handle more power with a tune. And so can a lot of other engines. That doesn't mean they reach production.

My guess is that keeping the I5 architecture around merely for high performance applications is not the most cost effective solution. After all, it essentially redundant given the high-output 3.0 TFSI V6 in the S4 - an engine that beneifts from being shared in other forms across a wide variety of Audi products, including non-specialized performance models that sell in high volume. The I5 may offer a slight weight advantage, and may also have packaging advantages for some applications. But these features may not be enough to justify its continued existence.

OK - if there is room for changed bore/stroke like you expect... then we would end up at something like 155hp/l - this is a value I can trust in ....
Nevertheless it is technically a huge effort/challenge for the M to develop such an engine which will obviously be compared with the current N54 3 liter Bi-Turbo, which produces the same power with ease...
Do they expect such high sales volume for the M2, that this development pays back?

I don't think the new M I4 will cost any more than any other M engine, nor any more than the competitors engine. They may even be able to bump it up to 2.5L (I don't know that for sure, I'd have to look more closely at the block and bore size of the current N20), thereby giving up nothing to Audi even if they do decide to stick with the I5.

[SCOTT26]

The 2er twins are in the FIZ underground parking facility about to hit the streets , X5 too. Keep a look out!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The 2er twins are in the FIZ underground parking facility about to hit the streets , X5 too. Keep a look out!

Thanks for the heads up SCOTT. It will be exciting to see these surface, even if they are cloaked in cladding.

So, bimmerpost says we get to see it in June:

http://www.bimmerpost.com/future-bmw/

June 2012
BMW 1-Series Coupe (F22)
Official Internet Reveal

Do you agree with that timeframe? And if not, can you at least confirm that the 2 will hit before the 4 (opposite of last generation - E82 came after E92)?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Thanks for the heads up SCOTT. It will be exciting to see these surface, even if they are cloaked in cladding.

So, bimmerpost says we get to see it in June:

http://www.bimmerpost.com/future-bmw/

June 2012
BMW 1-Series Coupe (F22)
Official Internet Reveal

Do you agree with that timeframe? And if not, can you at least confirm that the 2 will hit before the 4 (opposite of last generation - E82 came after E92)?

I am not in Detroit but a colleague sent a picture of one of the Chevrolet Concept cars which looks more 1er than Chevy.
Which shows how inspirational the E82 is as an entry level car.

They are completely covered in the "Swirl effect camouflage" so details are not evident when you see them bar the outline with has a bit more dynasim over the E82. Proportions are still compact and in keeping with the 2002 inspiration.

I think you are talking about 2013 for the Coupe and Cabrio. They have only begun (or about to) start public testing.
GCF have the first X5 pictures.

[mkoesel]

Thanks SCOTT. Sounds like 2013 will be the year of the coupe for BMW. Good times for us enthusiasts. Of course, then we begin the long wait for the M models.

I believe the Chevrolet you speak of is the Code 130R Concept. And, yes, I definitely agree there is a lot of E82 in it.