[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Perhaps I wasn't clear. It is a cost saving measure for both BMW and consumers long term. Short term, for BMW, it likely cost them more than physical buttons, due to R&D, but over time of sales, will net them a positive cost saving measure, and therefore, also consumers.

The logical fallacy here is that people are assuming BMW is taking that cost saving and not passing on ANY of the savings to the consumers, leaving them with a lesser solution for the same cost, when that is not true. Maybe in the short term it is not saving anything, because in the short term it also isn't saving BMW much because of the R&D costs, but it also will mean, hopefully, just like all the other cars doing this, a stabilization of car prices, where they won't continue to increase dramatically over the next few years.

I repeat...you know this how?

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I repeat...you know this how?

Educated guess based on my experience in IT, with programming, and agile development. Those menu’s don’t make themselves you know. Again, requires programmers (I think the latest iterations of iDrive are based on a Linux kernel, I could be wrong though). Also requires UI/UX devs, QA, mechanical engineers to work with the actual devs, etc.

Software development costs a lot of money, because it costs a lot of labor development. Especially since iDrive 8 was their first real attempt at a purely embedded climate control menu without physical buttons, likely took them a bit of time to nail down this iteration. Costs could be lower to develop going forward now that they have a starting point they can iterate on.

All this is speculative, but is based on established software development principles. Maybe it did cost BMW less than a physical climate control row even in the short term, because I don’t know how much development of that costs, but I doubt it.

Feel free to disagree or offer counter opinions. That said, I have given my reasoning as to why I think it does cost BMW more money in the short term with this new climate menu than physical buttons. What is your counter reasoning for why I may be wrong? Do you have software development industry knowledge that says contrary? Or car manufacturing industry knowledge that I admit, I am lacking in, because I am not a mechanical engineer, just an IT developer.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Educated guess based on my experience in IT, with programming, and agile development. Those menu’s don’t make themselves you know. Again, requires programmers (I think the latest iterations of iDrive are based on a Linux kernel, I could be wrong though). Also requires UI/UX devs, QA, mechanical engineers to work with the actual devs, etc.

Software development costs a lot of money, because it costs a lot of labor development. Especially since iDrive 8 was their first real attempt at a purely embedded climate control menu without physical buttons, likely took them a bit of time to nail down this iteration. Costs could be lower to develop going forward now that they have a starting point they can iterate on.

All this is speculative, but is based on established software development principles. Maybe it did cost BMW less than a physical climate control row even in the short term, because I don’t know how much development of that costs, but I doubt it.

Feel free to disagree or offer counter opinions. That said, I have given my reasoning as to why I think it does cost BMW more money in the short term with this new climate menu than physical buttons. What is your counter reasoning for why I may be wrong? Do you have software development industry knowledge that says contrary? Or car manufacturing industry knowledge that I admit, I am lacking in, because I am not a mechanical engineer, just an IT developer.

I never said you were wrong. I simply asked how you knew. Personally, I have no idea of the development costs vs. the costs of quality buttons/switches. My thought is that in a luxury car there should be physical switches/buttons for those features that you are most likely to need to adjust as you drive. The AC and radio come immediately to mind.

But BMW sells more than 2 million cars a year. If it is saving $10 on switches and buttons, it is saving $20 million a year. I have no idea how that compares to software development costs (nor do I have any idea of the cost of switches/buttons) but both are probably substantial.

But, ultimately, I don't care about the BMW costs. I care about the car it is trying to sell to me and whether it meets my needs and expectations at a price I am wiling to pay.

[Mavus]

there are recurring and non-recurring costs.

non-recurring is as you folks discussed design and development, unit testing, system integration testing, acceptance testing and all documentation to freeze design and configuration of s/w and h/w.

recurring is parts and labor. supplier selection, parts procurement, quality, transportation, storage, inventory mgmt etc, production, spares etc.

BMW is global co. so think about designing and procuring hvac controller and wiring, and then shipping it to various factories such as Mexico and South Africa. If you can delete hvac ctrl you don't need to worry about recurring costs for that unit. Then multiply by the no. of units to be produced over the life of that model or multiple models.

It is a cost saving measure to simplify production. I would argue that non-recurring costs are insignificant.

Another good example is common center console for switches and shifter that is now being deleted. These consoles are designed with configuration flexibility to accommodate various series models from 8 -2 series. It is production cost decrease due to common parts and instl process.

This CEO talked about his priority of decreasing the no. of parts in each model when he started therefore decreasing manuf cost and increasing margins.

I personally think the layout of id7 like F series is about right balance for most drivers and do not want ipads on dash. There has to be tactile feedback for most common functions.

[StradaRedlands]

Even on the E90, I dislike how the AC button is way over on the far right and flush with the other buttons. Can't be intuitively pushed without having to look at it.

I've mentioned this before, but I think E30 layout was best. Three mixing sliders, a temp dial, a fan speed dial (hate fan speed buttons!), a vent button, an AC button.

Now get off of my lawn!

[ramparts]

There's also a concerted effort to nudge people towards EVs.

Notice like the gear shifter going on the LCI 3, because you don't need it in an ev

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by M4_ZMT

I can't stand the removal of physical climate controls! For me it's safer feeling knowing exactly where to press and being able to mostly keep your eyes on the road. With a touchscreen I worry that without that tactile feedback it would be more distracting.

I would at least want the fan speed option always showing as well on the bottom, and to turn on heated seats should be something accessible by a physical key or permanent bottom screen bar as well. I think I could get used to it if they made it a bit more functional on the bottom area where there is just temp adjustment now...but not a fan of even the climate menu when you go into it. Just looks like a bunch of circles and hard to know what you're doing, again, while having to take eyes off the road. It's surprising to me that BMW, known for their ergonomics made this choice, but there is no doubt how cool it does look and futuristic it has made their cabin feel. Not to mention the graphics and display quality is great.

I think with some fine tuning, I could maybe do it....but for now I am glad I have a 2022 M4 with the iDrive 7 system and physical climate controls.

EDIT: Seeing the new X1, U11, WEIRDLY since they ditched the controller completely, iDrive 8 seems more compelling as a completely touch based system, lol- I do like the volume roller/mute in the center.

This post sounds all over the place, but I do see merits in both.

Yeah I don't like the removal of the control as well, the whole centre console in the FWD based ones is odd. And they have a small version of the curved display

[Wolf 335]

Volume and climate should always be a turing knob, always! Please.

[ramparts]

The steering wheel is going away next in place of a touchscreen

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by ramparts

The steering wheel is going away next in place of a touchscreen

Elon will go BMW one better and tell the world that one can steer a Tesla with one's mind!

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

Elon will go BMW one better and tell the world that one can steer a Tesla with one's mind!

If ever there was a man at the top of an elaborate pyramid scheme. It would be him.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Mavus

there are recurring and non-recurring costs.

non-recurring is as you folks discussed design and development, unit testing, system integration testing, acceptance testing and all documentation to freeze design and configuration of s/w and h/w.

recurring is parts and labor. supplier selection, parts procurement, quality, transportation, storage, inventory mgmt etc, production, spares etc.

BMW is global co. so think about designing and procuring hvac controller and wiring, and then shipping it to various factories such as Mexico and South Africa. If you can delete hvac ctrl you don't need to worry about recurring costs for that unit. Then multiply by the no. of units to be produced over the life of that model or multiple models.

It is a cost saving measure to simplify production. I would argue that non-recurring costs are insignificant.

Another good example is common center console for switches and shifter that is now being deleted. These consoles are designed with configuration flexibility to accommodate various series models from 8 -2 series. It is production cost decrease due to common parts and instl process.

This CEO talked about his priority of decreasing the no. of parts in each model when he started therefore decreasing manuf cost and increasing margins.

I personally think the layout of id7 like F series is about right balance for most drivers and do not want ipads on dash. There has to be tactile feedback for most common functions.

This guy gets it

[sikotic]

Usually most BMW complaints I see are enthusiasts on this forum, but now on YouTube, on nearly every single ID8 M340i video, there are tons of complaints about the screen/lack of buttons/tons of confusing apps etc..

The only complaint about Id7 was the screen going from analog to digital, and maybe the tachometers going the wrong way.

Who knows, maybe the buttons do find their way back. I'm also guessing that we see a new BMW screen implemented within the next 2 years

[G30M]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

I've mentioned this before, but I think E30 layout was best. Three mixing sliders, a temp dial, a fan speed dial (hate fan speed buttons!), a vent button, an AC button.

Now get off of my lawn!

the more knobs and dials the better! just one question -

where's the cassette tape player?

need the hole to put this in -

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by G99M5

the more knobs and dials the better! just one question -

where's the cassette tape player?

need the hole to put this in -

Oh yeah, that's how you hook up your Discman!!!

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by sikotic

Usually most BMW complaints I see are enthusiasts on this forum, but now on YouTube, on nearly every single ID8 M340i video, there are tons of complaints about the screen/lack of buttons/tons of confusing apps etc..

The only complaint about Id7 was the screen going from analog to digital, and maybe the tachometers going the wrong way.

Who knows, maybe the buttons do find their way back. I'm also guessing that we see a new BMW screen implemented within the next 2 years

People have to learn new tech. The more complex tech becomes, the more technologically able each person needs to be. Some adapt better than others. Supposedly, if you hit up on the idrive controller, it is the equivalent of scrolling down at the top of the screen and will show you all your shortcuts instantly to click on. Most reviewers don’t seem to know that…

[chris719]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Educated guess based on my experience in IT, with programming, and agile development. Those menu’s don’t make themselves you know. Again, requires programmers (I think the latest iterations of iDrive are based on a Linux kernel, I could be wrong though). Also requires UI/UX devs, QA, mechanical engineers to work with the actual devs, etc.

Software development costs a lot of money, because it costs a lot of labor development. Especially since iDrive 8 was their first real attempt at a purely embedded climate control menu without physical buttons, likely took them a bit of time to nail down this iteration. Costs could be lower to develop going forward now that they have a starting point they can iterate on.

All this is speculative, but is based on established software development principles. Maybe it did cost BMW less than a physical climate control row even in the short term, because I don’t know how much development of that costs, but I doubt it.

Feel free to disagree or offer counter opinions. That said, I have given my reasoning as to why I think it does cost BMW more money in the short term with this new climate menu than physical buttons. What is your counter reasoning for why I may be wrong? Do you have software development industry knowledge that says contrary? Or car manufacturing industry knowledge that I admit, I am lacking in, because I am not a mechanical engineer, just an IT developer.

The software development cost is almost zero because they have an existing team employed designing the rest of that software and firmware. It’s probably a feature that took half of a 2 week sprint to implement. The cost of the buttons is also cheap when spread across the entire line but I assume they have to pay for molds, tactile switch, and wiring and/or a small PCB. Over 1M units I am going to assume the cost of the physical buttons swamp the dev and test costs. If those guys weren’t implementing HVAC controls they probably would have spent their time implementing lower priority features that no one cares about.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by chris719

The software development cost is almost zero because they have an existing team employed designing the rest of that software and firmware. It’s probably a feature that took half of a 2 week sprint to implement. The cost of the buttons is also cheap when spread across the entire line but I assume they have to pay for molds, tactile switch, and wiring and/or a small PCB. Over 1M units I am going to assume the cost of the physical buttons swamp the dev and test costs. If those guys weren’t implementing HVAC controls they probably would have spent their time implementing lower priority features that no one cares about.

We won‘t ever know how long it took. That said, I would be impressed if they had made the climate menu in a single 2 week sprint. It is an entirely new feature to idrive (not just a reskin/rework of idrive 7), and while in a perfect agile world, you are probably correct in saying it cost nothing. The problem is, agile often isn‘t perfect. Features change, scope changes, timeline changes, teams change. Just because a developer should be able to do something in a small timeframe, doesn‘t mean that actually happens, and it doesn‘t even have to be at the fault of the developer.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don‘t think I will have a problem with this climate menu, we will find out once I receive the vehicle. The important part is I am keeping an open mind.

Some people will love it, some will hate it. The point is, not everyone is going to love it, and not everyone is going to hate it. This is an enthusiast forum, ofc its going to be biased towards hating it because this forum‘s demographic is skewed toward car enthusiast, physical buttons, analog clusters, manual transmissions, etc… Unfortunately, not everyone that drives a BMW is a car enthusiast (I wish). Probably not even the majority anymore. Therefore they are catering to those. That isn‘t BMWs problem, or car enthusiast problem. It is just reality.

[OriginalFake]

As someone who actually has a car with iDrive 8, I can tell you that I've gone into the climate menu two times in two weeks and one of those times was when I picked up the car and was playing with it. With full auto climate on, I have no reason to mess with things. It even turns on the heated seats if it's cold enough to need them.

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by OriginalFake

As someone who actually has a car with iDrive 8, I can tell you that I've gone into the climate menu two times in two weeks and one of those times was when I picked up the car and was playing with it. With full auto climate on, I have no reason to mess with things. It even turns on the heated seats if it's cold enough to need them.

I think it will depend on the time of year and where you are.

Take the UK for example, I'm currently having to change the temperature/ seats / steering wheel daily because it can't make its mind up on the weather !

It's gone from 18C to 3C to 13C back to 7C and now it's 9C

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

We won‘t ever know how long it took. That said, I would be impressed if they had made the climate menu in a single 2 week sprint. It is an entirely new feature to idrive (not just a reskin/rework of idrive 7), and while in a perfect agile world, you are probably correct in saying it cost nothing. The problem is, agile often isn‘t perfect. Features change, scope changes, timeline changes, teams change. Just because a developer should be able to do something in a small timeframe, doesn‘t mean that actually happens, and it doesn‘t even have to be at the fault of the developer.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don‘t think I will have a problem with this climate menu, we will find out once I receive the vehicle. The important part is I am keeping an open mind.

Some people will love it, some will hate it. The point is, not everyone is going to love it, and not everyone is going to hate it. This is an enthusiast forum, ofc its going to be biased towards hating it because this forum‘s demographic is skewed toward car enthusiast, physical buttons, analog clusters, manual transmissions, etc… Unfortunately, not everyone that drives a BMW is a car enthusiast (I wish). Probably not even the majority anymore. Therefore they are catering to those. That isn‘t BMWs problem, or car enthusiast problem. It is just reality.

And time will tell. Cadillac once luxuriated in the role of "the standard for the world". Then it started cost cutting, sharing parts with Chevrolet, etc. and slipped and slipped.

Cadillac is trying to come back now (the Lyriq is a nice looking vehicle) but it is a lot harder to come back then it is to fall.

It will take years before we find out if the current BMW design ethos was a sales success.

While I love driving a BMW, I now have deposits down on a Lucid Air and a Cadillac Lyriq.

[ramparts]

Look here at the new rolls Royce.

It's idrive 8 ( with a RR skin ), but , look lower! Buttons ! And it's integrated into the dash and not stuck on !

So it is possible to have both.
BMW just hate us