[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Wanting the best high performance winter tires and using max performance summer tires in the winter is an oxymoron.

If your performance car must navigate snow and ice, I agree.

But if your performance car will only need to navigate cold temperatures or a cold rain, I don't think it's an oxymoron at all, because I've been doing it for many years, on various RWD performance cars. Never had a problem.

Hec, Doc doesn't even plan on driving his M2 in a cold rain much, merely navigating cold, dry pavement. Thus, my recommendation to Doc is to not switch out his summer tires initially, and let winter come and see if his summer tires feel "unsafe" in the colder temps. If they do, then he can always order A/S or winter performance tires later.

For me, I'd always let my summer tires get warmed up a bit after a cold night or in really cold temperatures (below freezing), and then I'd drive my performance car quite normally. And the tires gripped almost like it was summer. My recent experience over the last 10 years or so has been with Michelins Pilot Super Sports (now the PS4S), and they've been great. Never take them off the car, in any weather. But of course, if there's snow or ice, my performance cars are never driven. Though, even if I had winter tires, I still wouldn't want to risk driving my fun, performance car in the snow or ice, not among the other drivers out there navigating those same slippery conditions.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

If your performance car must navigate snow and ice, I agree.

But if your performance car will only need to navigate cold temperatures or a cold rain, I don't think it's an oxymoron at all, because I've been doing it for many years, on various RWD performance cars. Never had a problem.

Hec, Doc doesn't even plan on driving his M2 in a cold rain much, merely navigating cold, dry pavement. Thus, my recommendation to Doc is to not switch out his summer tires initially, and let winter come and see if his summer tires feel "unsafe" in the colder temps. If they do, then he can always order A/S or winter performance tires later.

For me, I'd always let my summer tires get warmed up a bit after a cold night or in really cold temperatures (below freezing), and then I'd drive my performance car quite normally. And the tires gripped almost like it was summer. My recent experience over the last 10 years or so has been with Michelins Pilot Super Sports (now the PS4S), and they've been great. Never take them off the car, in any weather. But of course, if there's snow or ice, my performance cars are never driven. Though, even if I had winter tires, I still wouldn't want to risk driving my fun, performance car in the snow or ice, not among the other drivers out there navigating those same slippery conditions.

Never having a problem doesn’t mean it’s the best high performance tire in the cold. Even Michelin warns against using PS4S in cold temperatures.

Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Never having a problem doesn’t mean it’s the best high performance tire in the cold. Even Michelin warns against using PS4S in cold temperatures.

Yep, that's Michelin covering themselves, for lawsuit prevention. I get it. Car manufacturers and companies who provide parts for cars will always "warn" us against doing certain things, to avoid having to cover mishaps under warranty. I'm sure every car manufacturer would warn us not to use spacers, or lower their cars with aftermarket parts, or use an aftermarket intake, etc., else some warranty will be voided. Some wheel companies void warranties if you use spacers.

I'm simply offering my input after 10 winters of driving on summer Michelin Pilot Super Sports in the cold (even at 0 degrees F) that it never felt dangerous, and I never had excessive tire wear, and the tires always rebounded to perform well the following summer. And sometimes, the car wasn't even kept in the garage, it would get kicked out into the driveway under a cover because I was housing other cars.

So unless your high-performance car is your only car, and you know you'll have it to drive in the snow or in icy conditions, I would try out your summer tires first on those cold, dry pavements. And if you have Michelin PS4s, I highly recommend trying them out in the winter first. Again, even if I only had one car which was a high-performance vehicle, and had the best winter tires, I still wouldn't be driving my beloved, prized possession in treacherous conditions like snow or on ice. I'd stay home, rent a car for a week, or use a ridesharing app. Why risk it? All it takes is one person around you who didn't buy snow tires to ruin your month (and could total your car). You could likely rent a Prius or Corolla for a week for $200 while the weather moderates and save yourself the headache.

[whyzee125]

Seriously, just get the Conti DWS. An EXCELLENT tire with very little compromise. Great ride quality, quiet, good grip, doesn't flat spot, and looks nice. That is the tire you want.

[RM7]

There's also a big difference between air temp, pavement temp and tire temp. There's a significant amount of independence in each of these parameters.

[ptack]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

If your performance car must navigate snow and ice, I agree.

But if your performance car will only need to navigate cold temperatures or a cold rain, I don't think it's an oxymoron at all, because I've been doing it for many years, on various RWD performance cars. Never had a problem.

Hec, Doc doesn't even plan on driving his M2 in a cold rain much, merely navigating cold, dry pavement. Thus, my recommendation to Doc is to not switch out his summer tires initially, and let winter come and see if his summer tires feel "unsafe" in the colder temps. If they do, then he can always order A/S or winter performance tires later.

For me, I'd always let my summer tires get warmed up a bit after a cold night or in really cold temperatures (below freezing), and then I'd drive my performance car quite normally. And the tires gripped almost like it was summer. My recent experience over the last 10 years or so has been with Michelins Pilot Super Sports (now the PS4S), and they've been great. Never take them off the car, in any weather. But of course, if there's snow or ice, my performance cars are never driven. Though, even if I had winter tires, I still wouldn't want to risk driving my fun, performance car in the snow or ice, not among the other drivers out there navigating those same slippery conditions.

Ditto here - Last year I kept my Michelin PSSs on my 135i all winter, but only drove it when the roads were dry and had no major issues. I used the SUV otherwise. I also have a 2nd set of winter wheels with Michelin Alpins on that I can put on the 135i if I need to drive in snow or ice - and it does so very well.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Yep, that's Michelin covering themselves, for lawsuit prevention. I get it.

Except it's not only that. There have been many examples of PSS and PS4S cracking on the shoulder in low temperatures and needing to be replaced. Particularly the more aggressive compound versions used on Corvettes. They cracked parked outside in the south on dealer lots...

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by chris719

Except it's not only that. There have been many examples of PSS and PS4S cracking on the shoulder in low temperatures and needing to be replaced. Particularly the more aggressive compound versions used on Corvettes. They cracked parked outside in the south on dealer lots...

OK.

And if someone doesn't want to risk using summer tires in the winter because of these isolated cases, I understand...they can simply get all-season or snow tires for their performance vehicles in the winter.

I'm just offering my 20+ years of experience of driving summer tires in the winter on dry or wet pavement, and not having any issues (with the last 10 years all being high-performance Michelin Pilot Sports), no issues with cracking, excessive tread wear, or sliding. Again, I have always driven my sports/sporty cars all through the winter, only pausing during snow and ice storms (and waiting for rain to clear the salt). Otherwise, I just get in and drive my cars, often on long trips. Never a problem with my tires...as long as you know to avoid snow and ice, and to be careful of any possible ice patches when the temperatures drop below freezing. Basically, drive with some sense.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

OK.

And if someone doesn't want to risk using summer tires in the winter because of these isolated cases, I understand...they can simply get all-season or snow tires for their performance vehicles in the winter.

I'm just offering my 20+ years of experience of driving summer tires in the winter on dry or wet pavement, and not having any issues (with the last 10 years all being high-performance Michelin Pilot Sports), no issues with cracking, excessive tread wear, or sliding. Again, I have always driven my sports/sporty cars all through the winter, only pausing during snow and ice storms (and waiting for rain to clear the salt). Otherwise, I just get in and drive my cars, often on long trips. Never a problem with my tires...as long as you know to avoid snow and ice, and to be careful of any possible ice patches when the temperatures drop below freezing. Basically, drive with some sense.

It's not safe, period. Look at the data, if it rains or a squall comes through on your long trips, you are in trouble.

[Alfisti]

I have a bridge to sell anyone who says summer rubber is better than a dedicated all season in colder temps. I have Pirelli PZERO's on my 997 and if i go for a ride on a cloudy, late afternoon you can feel the fuckers are not happy. God help you if it rains and is "fall hoodie" cold.

Once warmed up they are fine but stone cold...... dreaming.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I have a bridge to sell anyone who says summer rubber is better than a dedicated all season in colder temps. I have Pirelli PZERO's on my 997 and if i go for a ride on a cloudy, late afternoon you can feel the fuckers are not happy. God help you if it rains and is "fall hoodie" cold.

Once warmed up they are fine but stone cold...... dreaming.

On my old G35 Coupe, I almost couldn't get out of a flat driveway with a light coating of frost with the stock RE050A summer tires.

[Alfisti]

With the engine over the back the rears warm up pretty easy but the light front end floats like a boat in proper cold weather.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I have a bridge to sell anyone who says summer rubber is better than a dedicated all season in colder temps. I have Pirelli PZERO's on my 997 and if i go for a ride on a cloudy, late afternoon you can feel the fuckers are not happy. God help you if it rains and is "fall hoodie" cold.

Once warmed up they are fine but stone cold...... dreaming.

I think the source of much of the disagreement in this thread on the summer tires is that it strongly depends on the exact tire we are talking about. Some of the summer tires seem to remain pliable at colder temps than others. The problem is that no one knows this info except the manufacturer. Even if I say my PS4S is fine, it doesn't even mean all PS4S will be fine given the many OEM versions that have different compounds. The Corvette PS4S is much more like a Cup 2 than what the generic PS4S is. That's why I just prefer to say it's a bad idea to drive on summer tires below freezing, without having to dive into exactly what tire it is.

[RM7]

If you are going from a relatively warm garage, to a sunny road, even if the air temp is cooler, your tires may not cool to that air temp and friction may keep them a little higher. The problem with this is if it's colder, there's more shade, etc., your tires may cool and your traction may get less and less as you drive. This is a stupid thing to do in the cold.

[DrFerry]

Why are summer tires called 'summer tires' and why are winter tires called 'winter tires'?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

What prompted my post was really the driving I do during the winter that is from around 25°F - 45°F, but on dry pavement. These are the sorts of days I've found unpleasant driving in summer tires. There are enough of these days that I'd like to be able to use my M2 and enjoy it a bit. Ive had a several cars with summer only tires and have experienced the loss of grip that occurs on cold days first hand numerous times. I've also driven through it long enough to get some heat into the tires and restore much of the performance, but my current circumstances are now that many of my trips are short enough that I'd never warm up the tires much. That's what prompted the question. I ran PS All Season 4s on my M240i, but that's a different beast so comparisons could be difficult to make. I do have a neighbor who has also runs that tire in his M8 and he's happy with them.

So, winter tires that are snow oriented are not my particular interest, but circum-freezing capable tires are.

Many thanks to all those that have chimed in so far.

You and I are in the same boat in terms of the climates we live and driving needs. I've owned my M235 since new for nearly 7 years now. I've driven it in 6 Kansas City winters now. Kansas City winters are from approximately late November until mid March. Temps range from 0 to 50 degrees with typical winter temps in the upper 20s to upper 30s. We get about 18" to 24" of snow with most events being less than 4". Snow is typically removed from the main roads and highways in 8 hours or so. Side roads typically have some snow for 2 to 3 days after the event. Slush, pockets of ice, black ice, and freezing rain are common in the winter.

The area I live in is hilly and topography changes across the city range from 800' to 1,600' above sea level.

My M235 6MT makes around 380whp/400wtq and it spend it's evening in a garage.

My car came with PSS and I got Michelin Alpin PA4s for my first winter because people swore I needed winter tires. Those tires were quite amazing in the snow, BUT in all other circumstances, they pretty much were terrible and borderline dangerous. On cold wet pavement, the braking was terrible and would engage the ABS very quickly. On cold dry pavement, basically the same issue in panic stops. The tires were loud and handled like wet porkchop. When temps got into the upper 40s, the tires were total crap. Since rubber is so pliable, they wore quickly and were completely done in 14K miles and about 4 winter seasons. The only reason I'd ever have tires like that again is if I live somewhere with snow on the roads almost all winter. For where I live, the PA4s were pointless and I hated driving on them in the winter.

I replaced the PA4s with Michelin PS All Season 4s. These tires are by far the best all season performance tires I've ever experienced in 33+ year of driving. The tires are magic, IMO. They are real grippy in 40-70 degree weather (~80% of the grip of my prior PSS and current PS4S) and do exceptionally good in 15-40 degree weather including the dry and wet handling and braking. They are quiet, wear really well, and look good too. They are miles ahead of the PA4s except in snowy driving, but even then they aren't bad. I've never been stuck and that includes hills. These tires are also a bit better than the Conti DWS06 I had on my prior 2012 WRX as a winter set. DWS06s weren't as good in the snow and didn't handle remotely as well in the dry or wet as the PS All Season 4s.

I've had all sorts of performance all seasons throughout the years and the PS All Season 4s are by far the best I've ever had. They're also the most expensive

I'll also add some fuel to the fire that I ran my PS4s in 20 degree temps, cold and wet road conditions, last year and didn't swap the PS All Season 4s on until the first of the year. Yeah, the PS4s become super stiff in the cold, but the braking and handling is still better than Alpin PA4. LOL
.

[________]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I have a bridge to sell anyone who says summer rubber is better than a dedicated all season in colder temps. I have Pirelli PZERO's on my 997 and if i go for a ride on a cloudy, late afternoon you can feel the fuckers are not happy. God help you if it rains and is "fall hoodie" cold.

Once warmed up they are fine but stone cold...... dreaming.

Sorry to catch an unintended joke here but it seems you already bought a bridge if you think all seasons are “dedicated”.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Yep, that's Michelin covering themselves, for lawsuit prevention. I get it. Car manufacturers and companies who provide parts for cars will always "warn" us against doing certain things, to avoid having to cover mishaps under warranty. I'm sure every car manufacturer would warn us not to use spacers, or lower their cars with aftermarket parts, or use an aftermarket intake, etc., else some warranty will be voided. Some wheel companies void warranties if you use spacers.

I'm simply offering my input after 10 winters of driving on summer Michelin Pilot Super Sports in the cold (even at 0 degrees F) that it never felt dangerous, and I never had excessive tire wear, and the tires always rebounded to perform well the following summer. And sometimes, the car wasn't even kept in the garage, it would get kicked out into the driveway under a cover because I was housing other cars.

So unless your high-performance car is your only car, and you know you'll have it to drive in the snow or in icy conditions, I would try out your summer tires first on those cold, dry pavements. And if you have Michelin PS4s, I highly recommend trying them out in the winter first. Again, even if I only had one car which was a high-performance vehicle, and had the best winter tires, I still wouldn't be driving my beloved, prized possession in treacherous conditions like snow or on ice. I'd stay home, rent a car for a week, or use a ridesharing app. Why risk it? All it takes is one person around you who didn't buy snow tires to ruin your month (and could total your car). You could likely rent a Prius or Corolla for a week for $200 while the weather moderates and save yourself the headache.

i've had MPSS in zero degree temps on my gtr and f80 and did fine as well.

are people trying to performance drive in zero degree temps or something? take corners like they would in the summer ? or tailgate people at 70mph and slam the brakes ? i guess a dedicated winter tire would be better for those applications. but driving fast in cold temps is stupid regardless of tire.

an mpss will still get you A to B if you drive like a normal person

[RM7]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The area I live in is hilly and topography changes across the city range from 800' to 1,600' above sea level.

Where is it 1600'?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

My car came with PSS and I got Michelin Alpin PA4s for my first winter because people swore I needed winter tires. Those tires were quite amazing in the snow, BUT in all other circumstances, they pretty much were terrible and borderline dangerous. On cold wet pavement, the braking was terrible and would engage the ABS very quickly. On cold dry pavement, basically the same issue in panic stops. The tires were loud and handled like wet porkchop. When temps got into the upper 40s, the tires were total crap. Since rubber is so pliable, they wore quickly and were completely done in 14K miles and about 4 winter seasons.

Must have been something wrong with your PA4 (old mfg date?) or setup. I have both of those tires on my M2C in stock sizes on a different set of OEM wheels and I feel the PA4 is excellent and better than PSS in wet (rain) and close enough to it in the dry when it is cold. No problem at all in the mid 40s, behaves great. I swapped them on in the mid 40s and drove on them up to the 50s. The TireRack data seems to agree with my experience. I have used 7 different tires from the Performance Winter category. They have compounds very similar to all season, just a tweaked tread design and more sipes in the blocks. I've actually driven on Bridgestone LM001 as late as early June and it was surprisingly fine. I won't dispute that the AS4 is probably better outside of snow, but my experience with PA4 is not at all like yours.

This exact comparison has been done:

[Red Bread]

Tire compound cracking is absolutely an issue on summer tires being stored and especially driven in cold temps. It's a bigger issue in 80 and 200tw tires, but some 240 and 300tw tires are still at risk in colder temps.

[IMG]https://www.stingrayforums.com/attac...to-3-jpg.3137/[/IMG]

[H2O_Doc]

I have two sets of wheels, so I could do Pilot Sport AS4s and if I don't like them or don't find enough utility in them, sell the set.

I think I might have mentioned elsewhere, a good friend of mine runs the AS4s on his M8 (year round).

Maybe do 255F/275R?