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      05-13-2021, 12:34 PM   #1
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Talking No-6MT-Supra insta-triggered

The choice to make this car non-manual was the stupid cherry on top of the stupid cake.

The M2CS 6MT is the new Supra.
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      05-13-2021, 12:43 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
The choice to make this car non-manual was the stupid cherry on top of the stupid cake.

The M2CS 6MT is the new Supra.
Yep, the 9% of buyers who would have opted for a manual are SOL. Maybe they should have made it a wagon, too...
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      05-13-2021, 12:57 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
Yep, the 9% of buyers who would have opted for a manual are SOL. Maybe they should have made it a wagon, too...
You're guessing, don't play it off like knowledge.

And those 9% are my people anyway, so shove off lol .
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      05-13-2021, 01:11 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
Yep, the 9% of buyers who would have opted for a manual are SOL. Maybe they should have made it a wagon, too...
I do think that there would be a higher manual take rate than 9% in North America for this car at least as it seems that when pricing gets over $60k USD is when the manual transmission take rate starts dwindling. M2 is almost 50% I believe and it's why VW still offers a 6 speed manual in North American Golf R's.
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      05-13-2021, 01:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I do think that there would be a higher manual take rate than 9% in North America for this car at least as it seems that when pricing gets over $60k USD is when the manual transmission take rate starts dwindling. M2 is almost 50% I believe and it's why VW still offers a 6 speed manual in North American Golf R's.
Yes, rich, fat Americans like auto/DCT. But you know what they like even more? Rare. Make the manual, just make it in limited numbers and watch the prices soar. It's not like the standard M2 6MT box couldn't have been made to work relatively easily, it's that Toyota is using the car as a cash cow.

#Illwalkfirst
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      05-13-2021, 01:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Yes, rich, fat Americans like auto/DCT. But you know what they like even more? Rare. Make the manual, just make it in limited numbers and watch the prices soar. It's not like the standard M2 6MT box couldn't have been made to work relatively easily, it's that Toyota is using the car as a cash cow.

#Illwalkfirst
To be fair the G29 doesn't have a manual either, so I don't think it's purely Toyota's decision not to offer it. Having said that, I am personally suffering from ZF8 fatigue as it's just in so many cars these days. A manual just makes sense in a car like this and a DCT would be the optimal automatic offering IMO - both would make the Supra much more special but, again, I don't think that's up to Toyota.
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      05-13-2021, 01:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Yes, rich, fat Americans like auto/DCT. But you know what they like even more? Rare. Make the manual, just make it in limited numbers and watch the prices soar. It's not like the standard M2 6MT box couldn't have been made to work relatively easily, it's that Toyota is using the car as a cash cow.

#Illwalkfirst
Rich worldwide like auto/DCT (Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc). "America's take rate for the 6-speed manual GT3 is an astonishing 70%. Not only that, but the global manual take rate for the GT3 doesn't even come close, at just 30%." https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/28/...%20to%2025%25.

They sold 6k Supra's last year in the U.S. at 10% isn't a lot and they also know that some part of the 10% that want a manual will also take an automatic. Then most aren't willing to special order, plants don't like to special build and you would never find one at a dealer.

Also, with the reusing an exiting manual, this comes with issues like fitting it to the car, 3 pedals, changes to the interior, electronics, testing, and I think government regulations. This rare car would have to come with a much bigger price tag to pay for the changes, then more complaining.

If they thought there was good profit in a manual they would have done it. Manuals are popular on forums, not so much with new car buyers.
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      05-13-2021, 01:53 PM   #8
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THis obsession with a clutch. The modern auto that gives you total control (other than red lining) to change gears yourself is really good enough surely, you can always be in the gear you want, isn't that the point?
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      05-13-2021, 01:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Yes, rich, fat Americans like auto/DCT. But you know what they like even more? Rare. Make the manual, just make it in limited numbers and watch the prices soar. It's not like the standard M2 6MT box couldn't have been made to work relatively easily, it's that Toyota is using the car as a cash cow.

#Illwalkfirst
To be fair the G29 doesn't have a manual either, so I don't think it's purely Toyota's decision not to offer it. Having said that, I am personally suffering from ZF8 fatigue as it's just in so many cars these days. A manual just makes sense in a car like this and a DCT would be the optimal automatic offering IMO - both would make the Supra much more special but, again, I don't think that's up to Toyota.
I think the EU market G29 Z4 comes with a stick but on lower end 20i trims. Either way, stick shift was a missed opportunity for the Supra. The whole Supra in general this generation was a missed opportunity, the M2 is more Supra than the Supra is.
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      05-13-2021, 02:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I think the EU market G29 Z4 comes with a stick but on lower end 20i trims. Either way, stick shift was a missed opportunity for the Supra. The whole Supra in general this generation was a missed opportunity, the M2 is more Supra than the Supra is.
Oh interesting, I didn't know that - I was looking at the M40i. I'm still not sold on the Supra personally, I am starting to understand why some people were disappointed that it wasn't a ground up project.
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      05-13-2021, 03:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I do think that there would be a higher manual take rate than 9% in North America for this car at least as it seems that when pricing gets over $60k USD is when the manual transmission take rate starts dwindling. M2 is almost 50% I believe and it's why VW still offers a 6 speed manual in North American Golf R's.
I don't disagree.

Another issue is that even if they offered the manual, let's not pretend it's at all good. BMW's 6MT shifter and feel overall is as average as it gets, whereas the ATs are the best on the market.
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      05-13-2021, 03:28 PM   #12
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When I went to the Toyota dealership last Saturday to deal with the oil consumption issue I was told they had a manual Supra protoype in the back (I tried to sneak a peek but was stopped.)

This to say that I would be shocked if the 2022 Supra doesnt offer a manual as an option. I remember US take rate being 50% for the US and I assume higher for the M2.

I 1000% agree with your statement though, as a previous F82 6MT owner I wouldn't go back to the manual and rather have the 8zf

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Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I don't disagree.

Another issue is that even if they offered the manual, let's not pretend it's at all good. BMW's 6MT shifter and feel overall is as average as it gets, whereas the ATs are the best on the market.
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      05-13-2021, 03:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
I don't disagree.

Another issue is that even if they offered the manual, let's not pretend it's at all good. BMW's 6MT shifter and feel overall is as average as it gets, whereas the ATs are the best on the market.
At least on my E92, I can deal (or have they changed it over the last 12 years?) but the clutch feel... well, there isn't any. I'm guessing that hasn't been fixed either.
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      05-13-2021, 04:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
THis obsession with a clutch. The modern auto that gives you total control (other than red lining) to change gears yourself is really good enough surely, you can always be in the gear you want, isn't that the point?

Not even close. Can't even see it from there. If you don't understand the desire for a clutch - then you never will. I have not NOT had a manual in my stable for over 20 years and god willing - I hope I never will be without one.

Something about your ass being the only anchor point while EVERY limb you have is working in concert to control this beast you have unleashed on the road and holding it to it's absolute edge. I'd take a slow manual over a faster auto any day. It's not about speed, it's about the feel. It's not for everyone, but for those that feel it - there is no alternative.
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      05-13-2021, 05:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
They sold 6k Supra's last year in the U.S....

If they thought there was good profit in a manual they would have done it. Manuals are popular on forums, not so much with new car buyers.
1. You can't make up numbers you don't have.
2. It's not about profit. Where are you getting profit? The car should have been offered in both a manual, and auto/DCT, as all sporty-natured cars should. Besides, again, you're making up numbers, as you have no idea what the real cost in time/effort/net net it would be to the manufacturer. And again I'll tell you regardless, it would have been worth it.

Toyota BOMBED the new Supra every possible way they could, period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
THis obsession with a clutch. The modern auto that gives you total control (other than red lining) to change gears yourself is really good enough surely, you can always be in the gear you want, isn't that the point?
No, that's not the point. Here, do this, take an auto to The Dragon, then a 6MT. You'll soon know the point exactly.
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      05-13-2021, 07:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
THis obsession with a clutch. The modern auto that gives you total control (other than red lining) to change gears yourself is really good enough surely, you can always be in the gear you want, isn't that the point?
If this is your argument, then you don't get the point of driving a manual.
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      05-13-2021, 08:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Besides, again, you're making up numbers, as you have no idea what the real cost in time/effort/net net it would be to the manufacturer. And again I'll tell you regardless, it would have been worth it.
You should send a note to everyone running finance at Toyota. I think you could be on to something they may have missed.
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      05-13-2021, 08:37 PM   #18
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You should send a note to everyone running finance at Toyota. I think you could be on to something they may have missed.
It's patently obvious to pretty much everyone except you that they missed literally everything.
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      05-14-2021, 06:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
The choice to make this car non-manual was the stupid cherry on top of the stupid cake.

The M2CS 6MT is the new Supra.
Yep, the 9% of buyers who would have opted for a manual are SOL. Maybe they should have made it a wagon, too...
Lol, 9%???
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      05-14-2021, 07:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
1. You can't make up numbers you don't have.
2. It's not about profit. Where are you getting profit? The car should have been offered in both a manual, and auto/DCT, as all sporty-natured cars should. Besides, again, you're making up numbers, as you have no idea what the real cost in time/effort/net net it would be to the manufacturer. And again I'll tell you regardless, it would have been worth it.

Toyota BOMBED the new Supra every possible way they could, period.


No, that's not the point. Here, do this, take an auto to The Dragon, then a 6MT. You'll soon know the point exactly.
6k sold last year in the U.S- https://carsalesbase.com/us-toyota-supra/

I put the 10% take rate but guessing it is high, what percentage do you think required a manual or went somewhere else?

No idea what you are talking about with the "it's not about profit" as for BMW and Toyota everything is looked at with this idea behind it. It's the reason they went into partnership, reason they don't have a manual, reason they reused parts off other cars and the list goes on.

The only point you seam to have is that you really wanted them to make a manual which is ok. I have a manual and also like it but also realize people aren't buying them like they used to and that's why car companies aren't offering them.
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      05-14-2021, 07:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
No idea what you are talking about with the "it's not about profit" as for BMW and Toyota everything is looked at with this idea behind it. It's the reason they went into partnership, reason they don't have a manual, reason they reused parts off other cars and the list goes on.

The only point you seam to have is that you really wanted them to make a manual which is ok. I have a manual and also like it but also realize people aren't buying them like they used to and that's why car companies aren't offering them.
This exactly, both BMW and Toyota are for profit companies, and in the end, cost savings is EVERYTHING.
I'd imagine it to be an agreement between BMW and Toyota that a manual will not be offered. These companies spend millions on R&D, they make decisions based on facts, not emotional factors

Also, you can partly also blame enthusiastic car buyers for this, Toyota dealers are not Porsche dealers and are not built to cater to the enthusiast buyers, a Toyota dealer shift off the shelf Corolla/Camry/Sienna/Highlander/Rav4 like hot cakes, no Toyota dealer sale will want to waste the time to put in the custom order for some enthusiast who has the worst demands, would complain if the car had a minor swirl mark from the teenager detailer who washed the car, when he could have sold and earned more from selling other cars in that same time frame.
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      05-14-2021, 07:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
6k sold last year in the U.S- https://carsalesbase.com/us-toyota-supra/
David, this is where you make your first mistake. We simply have no idea how many would have sold if a manual were offered, it's literally speculation. I'm sure the actuaries that work for Toyota are pretty astute, so I'm guessing, as you have, the numbers would have been low, but AGAIN, that isn't the point. This is a sporty-natured car, and for now, and for history, more buyers would have chose it, and the brand had both been offered.


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No idea what you are talking about with the "it's not about profit" as for BMW and Toyota everything is looked at with this idea behind it.
There is direct profit, and indirect profit. Ever looked at the numbers on halo cars? They ALL lose money, and that's precisely the point. The Supra never was, and isn't supposed to be a Camry, but it IS the closest thing Toyota has to a halo car.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
This exactly...
No, not that exactly. See my point above.

You guys are looking at the Supra the wrong way IMO (that "O" stands for opinion), especially given how solvent Toyota is as a company.

A lot of companies are making dreamy cars these days, and Toyota should have been one of them.
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