[x622]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

close, but no cigar.

The "tu quoque" fallacy revolves around the argument that the person making the statement about something bad displays the same behaviour (which doesn't take away that the behaviour is bad, that's the logical part in it).
That is clearly not the case here.
Wiki explains it better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
It would have been a tu quoque argument if I had said that your driving around a track is just as sloppy.
But in reality we have no idea what it takes to drive this fast around the nordschleife. Probably none of us here do.
I bet most of us haven't even driven there...



I guess bachelors' wives and maidens' children are well taught.


Saddest part about this video is when Misha makes a comparison to other cars that are now either phased out or gone...
The hot hatch is a dying breed

It's literally an ad hominem, good job using wikipedia.

Does honda pay you or do you have some special affinity for a multi-billion dollar corporation that doesn't give a shit about you?

[chassis]

Sloppy lap. And congrats to the participants on the record.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by x622

good job using wikipedia.

Yeah...I had to spell it out for you....

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by g21

I watched the incumbent record's video and the Megane was also sliding all over the place, but man the sound of that car was amazing, and it was much more agile - what a car! (no idea if they were cheating but it was amazing)

To me it's actually quite amaizing that it took so long (for Honda in this case) to break that Megane record.
In those 4 years things like advancement in tyre technology alone I would have expected giving that 4 sec difference.
But comparisons with track times in the past might be difficult. In the meantime the nordschleife got an all new track surface and curbs (about 1,5 years ago). I have no idea how that has impacted lap times.

But for sure the Megane RS in all it's iterations is a very good car for the Nordschleife, you see them a lot there, it's very popular. Too bad the current one is the last one and I guess that will be phased out very soon as that model is already from 2017.
But a last iteration (special edition) of the Megane RS has just been opened for orders (last month); the Mégane RS "Ultime".
Although I don't know if it's as hardcore as the Trophy-R
It has the cupchassis and LSD but I don't know if it has the backseat delete, carbon hood, Ohlins etc. Probably not as the Trophy-R was considerable more expensive (the Trophy-R was also more limited)

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by g21

wait ... it looks like you might be smelling the right direction ...

"It has been confirmed that the Civic in the video is a lightweight variant known as the S-Grade, a model not offered in any right-hand drive markets. It is some 47kg lighter than a standard Type R thanks to no satnav, no air conditioning, no parking sensors, and forged alloys."

This is the first I'm reading of a different set of wheels and actual weight savings figure disclosed. Not sure how credible that source is. In an Autoblog article from April 21, according to Honda:

"In total, the S grade deletes the air conditioning, parking sensors, rear cargo cover, cargo net hooks, auto-dimming mirror, vanity mirror lights and navigation hardware. It also reportedly swaps the auto-folding/electrically-adjustable mirrors to manual folding/adjustment and deletes the mirror heating capability. We'll note that a number of those features are already not available on U.S.-spec Type Rs — such as the auto-folding mirrors and parking sensors — but instead come on the regular Euro models. Honda also tells us that the powertrain, chassis and suspension running gear is all identical to a regular Euro-spec Type R. All of the poundage saved from these feature deletions will of course lead to a lower curb weight and a better lap time. Unfortunately, Honda doesn't have a figure to share with us as for exactly how much weight the S grade shaves off."

The removal of those items doesn't sound like much more than ~20 lbs of hardware. It's like chasing nickels around the dollar. I don't see a material get from removing these bits. Standing by for the actual weight savings figures.

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2023/04...-grade-report/

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by RM7

Race one at autoX or a track event and come back and discuss. I have. This car is the real deal (in its weight/power/size class).

Originally Posted by RM7

It's amazing considering AWD cars like the STI are at 8:06, 8:10 (the heavily modified one that was sub 7 was a built race car, not the same thing)

This is bang on; however, I don't think a qualifier or explanatory comma is necessary. Anyone who pushes back on the legitimacy of this car is simply not in the know. This is one of few mass produced vehicles that actually lives up to the hype. The reviews, print or otherwise, are correct. The car is everything they say it is. And yes...I own one, no conjecture here.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

This is bang on; however, I don't think a qualifier or explanatory comma is necessary. Anyone who pushes back on the legitimacy of this car is simply not in the know. This is one of few mass produced vehicles that actually lives up to the hype. The reviews, print or otherwise, are correct. The car is everything they say it is. And yes...I own one, no conjecture here.

Unfortunately people like to bash on things just for the sake of it. Forum life I suppose.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

This is the first I'm reading of a different set of wheels and actual weight savings figure disclosed. Not sure how credible that source is. In an Autoblog article from April 21, according to Honda:

"In total, the S grade deletes the air conditioning, parking sensors, rear cargo cover, cargo net hooks, auto-dimming mirror, vanity mirror lights and navigation hardware. It also reportedly swaps the auto-folding/electrically-adjustable mirrors to manual folding/adjustment and deletes the mirror heating capability. We'll note that a number of those features are already not available on U.S.-spec Type Rs — such as the auto-folding mirrors and parking sensors — but instead come on the regular Euro models. Honda also tells us that the powertrain, chassis and suspension running gear is all identical to a regular Euro-spec Type R. All of the poundage saved from these feature deletions will of course lead to a lower curb weight and a better lap time. Unfortunately, Honda doesn't have a figure to share with us as for exactly how much weight the S grade shaves off."

The removal of those items doesn't sound like much more than ~20 lbs of hardware. It's like chasing nickels around the dollar. I don't see a material get from removing these bits. Standing by for the actual weight savings figures.

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2023/04...-grade-report/

good point, this guy seems to have more information than anyone else
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/131...ing-lap-record

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

This is the first I'm reading of a different set of wheels and actual weight savings figure disclosed. Not sure how credible that source is. In an Autoblog article from April 21, according to Honda:

"In total, the S grade deletes the air conditioning, parking sensors, rear cargo cover, cargo net hooks, auto-dimming mirror, vanity mirror lights and navigation hardware. It also reportedly swaps the auto-folding/electrically-adjustable mirrors to manual folding/adjustment and deletes the mirror heating capability. We'll note that a number of those features are already not available on U.S.-spec Type Rs — such as the auto-folding mirrors and parking sensors — but instead come on the regular Euro models. Honda also tells us that the powertrain, chassis and suspension running gear is all identical to a regular Euro-spec Type R. All of the poundage saved from these feature deletions will of course lead to a lower curb weight and a better lap time. Unfortunately, Honda doesn't have a figure to share with us as for exactly how much weight the S grade shaves off."

The removal of those items doesn't sound like much more than ~20 lbs of hardware. It's like chasing nickels around the dollar. I don't see a material get from removing these bits. Standing by for the actual weight savings figures.

Source: https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2023/04...-grade-report/

but the boost, just keep an eye on the boost, 1.5-1.8 in 4th-6th gear, when stock maxes out at 1.4 (and usually hangs around 1.2)

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by g21

but the boost, just keep an eye on the boost, 1.5-1.8 in 4th-6th gear, when stock maxes out at 1.4 (and usually hangs around 1.2)

I've heard this theory peddled and I saw the video. Max boost, at least for the USDM FL5, is 25.2 psi per a press release last fall. If my formula is correct that's ~1.75 bar. I also wouldn't get too hung up on the boost numbers you see in the video. It's impossible to make declarative statements about the boost curve by watching a video. The Bosch ECU will modulate boost pressure based on several factors, including, but not limited to throttle input, altitude, ambient temperature, gear, RPM. This Type R S Grade variant very well may run more boost, have different gearing, etc. but that remains to be proven. The subtext is: I need more information to stand on a specific position.

[G30M]

thanks, if that's the spec there is no cheating.

not sure why other people's cars don't show that much boost. maybe they didn't max out the throttle

[heavyD^2]

It's a cheater car just like the FK8 ring car. If the stock car could make close to that time they would run it. Everybody knows the FK9 just like the FK8 is extremely capable FWD performance car. That's not the argument here. The argument is that Honda isn't making these records with stock CTR's. I'm not sure how anyone could even debate that. Given that the Limited Edition FK8 Type R was had 46kg in weight reduction and retained AC this car is likely far lighter than even that car relative to the stock car. Nobody can buy this S grade car right now and when they claimed the record made no mention about the special trim. It's only once people discovered something was up that this never heard of before S trim came out from Honda which to me is purposely misleading as the masses that just read the headlines think a stock CTR can make that time when it can't.

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

It's a cheater car just like the FK8 ring car. If the stock car could make close to that time they would run it. Everybody knows the FK9 just like the FK8 is extremely capable FWD performance car. That's not the argument here. The argument is that Honda isn't making these records with stock CTR's. I'm not sure how anyone could even debate that. Given that the Limited Edition FK8 Type R was had 46kg in weight reduction and retained AC this car is likely far lighter than even that car relative to the stock car. Nobody can buy this S grade car right now and when they claimed the record made no mention about the special trim. It's only once people discovered something was up that this never heard of before S trim came out from Honda which to me is purposely misleading as the masses that just read the headlines think a stock CTR can make that time when it can't.

This is the status quo. And for the record, I'm not saying I agree with it but many manufacturers do what Honda has done to some degree. The reason for this is there is no oversight for Nürburgring lap times. Lamborghini faced scruntiny over that dodgy video of the record lap time for the Huracán Performante. Nissan was challenged about 10 years ago with the times from the NISMO GT-R. Porsche has had to defend lap times from one a couple of their GT cars. This happens quite often and there's a bit of gamesmanship involved. It's fun to chat about but I'm not too worried about these times. I'll never take my car to the Nürburgring and even if I did, I don't have the skill to safely drive my car at the limit.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Unfortunately people like to bash on things just for the sake of it. Forum life I suppose.

I don't think anyone is bashing the car. From all accounts it is quite good.

But claiming you beat the record when using a special edition version only available from LHD European dealers, while using tires only available from US/Asia dealers...is a little disingenuous.

To be technical, the Megane still holds the record for a vehicle/tire config an actual costumer can buy from a dealership.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I don't think anyone is bashing the car. From all accounts it is quite good.

But claiming you beat the record when using a special edition version only available from LHD European dealers, while using tires only available from US/Asia dealers...is a little disingenuous.

To be technical, the Megane still holds the record for a vehicle/tire config an actual costumer can buy from a dealership.

It was more a general comment about bashing cars, and there is a lot of it. I never said people were bashing it here, I said "forum life". I frequent a lot of different forums, and there are so many people that bash this car (and others), I guess just to get noticed/reactions. The CTR would run circles around many of those that post negative comments. Anyways, not trying to get this all off-topicy.