BMW 1-Series Forum (F20) 135i - 1Addicts.com > Second Generation 1 Series Forum > 2012 BMW 1-Series Sporthatch (F20) Discussion > Rumor: BMW Mulling 1 Series Sedan M Model to Take on CLA45 AMG and S3 Sedan
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      11-28-2012, 12:56 PM   #45
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      11-28-2012, 01:04 PM   #46
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Absolutely no qualms about a future M going 4 cyl but a few caveats must apply.

1. Definitive weight reduction ( approx. 150/200 kg) ((assuming 4cyl/300hp))
2. RWD

Given BMW's "second strategy" where the future 1 series hatch & sedan are going to become FWD on a shared platform, UKL, with the Mini brand then so be it. From a profitability and scalability point of view it is probably justified. Many will detest the idea and there are likely to be many more that will, most likely, not care either way.

BMW need to be absolutely clear on what will be FWD and RWD in the future. For the sake of the brand I hope that the future 2,3,4,5,6,7 series all remain primarily RWD, whether that is in standard trim or an ///M model.

How long before we see a FWD ///M and where RWD will only be available on ///M's !?
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      11-28-2012, 01:12 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AusF20
I like it
The good news from this is that there will be a 300hp+ upgrade M chip available for the existing 125i power plant in the not too distant future
Since my pick up is next week, i hope your right with this one
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      11-28-2012, 01:13 PM   #48
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If there is any truth to this report, I guess it would actually refer to an M Performance M135i sedan (naturally xDrive, not FWD). The power given makes sense as the M135i hatch is @320ps. But I can't see a full-blown M model based upon the 1er sedan... because it would closely compete against the 340ps M2 GranCoupé that Scott26 confirmed to us, and 2 M models so close from each other just doesn't make sense. (On the contrary, I presume there will be a big enough status and price difference between M3 sedan and M4 GranCoupé to justify both coexisting)

So I'd say that either we will get a 320ps M135i M Performance sedan + a 340ps hardcore M2 GranCoupé, or this report is wrong because it actually refers to only the second model, the M2 GranCoupé, not to a 1er sedan M.

Last edited by advantage20; 11-28-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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      11-28-2012, 01:16 PM   #49
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It makes sense to produce a 1er sedan now because the 3er has, relatively, grown in size a lot. But what I don't understand is that why BMW is making the same mistake regarding their model designation. I see BMW is adding the FWD to the 1er family along with the already 1er badged cars.. They already have the 3/5 doors and 1er GT. and if rumors of a 1er sedan are true, then you have the sedan which I am sure then, a 1er touring will be introduced. These are a lot for a 1 nomenclature. Add all 9875641636 FWD models to the RWD 1ers (except for the GT) then 1er badge is too crowded for normal people to tell the difference. I suggest that BMW comes up with a different nomenclature for the FWD family other than the 1 series. Off course that will go away if BMW is going to make all 1ers FWD eventually.

Hopefully SCOTT can give us more insight.
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      11-28-2012, 01:18 PM   #50
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Looks promising.... bring it
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      11-28-2012, 01:34 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
It makes sense to produce a 1er sedan now because the 3er has, relatively, grown in size a lot. But what I don't understand is that why BMW is making the same mistake regarding their model designation. I see BMW is adding the FWD to the 1er family along with the already 1er badged cars.. They already have the 3/5 doors and 1er GT. and if rumors of a 1er sedan are true, then you have the sedan which I am sure then, a 1er touring will be introduced. These are a lot for a 1 nomenclature. Add all 9875641636 FWD models to the RWD 1ers (except for the GT) then 1er badge is too crowded for normal people to tell the difference. I suggest that BMW comes up with a different nomenclature for the FWD family other than the 1 series. Off course that will go away if BMW is going to make all 1ers FWD eventually.

Hopefully SCOTT can give us more insight.

I think ALL 1-Series derivatives will be FWD in the future. The current 3 and 5 door versions are probably the last RWD 1-series we gonna see. The next generation will be all FWD.
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      11-28-2012, 01:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Are you trying to argue that the S63 isn't easily tuned? If anything, the switch to FI on S series engines is making tuning potential much easier and cheaper than on the previous n/a motors.
Not at all. I'm arguing that the S63 is more than just an N63 with a different tune, and thus that even in the new FI era you can't turn a regular series engine into an M engine with a simple tune. At least that's how it's been thus far with the sole exception of the 1M, and I hope that's how it continues. The 1M is a great car, but its engine doesn't feel as special as full-on M engines; I think they just got away with it because the N54 is such a great engine in the first place, but still not up to full M standards.
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      11-28-2012, 01:49 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
Add all 9875641636 FWD models to the RWD 1ers (except for the GT) then 1er badge is too crowded for normal people to tell the difference.
Exactly
It will be easy for BMW to market 1er hatch, 1er sedan (and 1er Touring if it will exist) as these will probably share the same front and not need any specific designation on the trunk.

But add to that the new 'specific' models: 1er mini-van (Active Sports Tourer), 1er break/van (F.A.S.T), 1er City Urbanic... Wait, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few

If they stick to including all this bunch of models into the 1er range, it makes sense but they will then definitely have to not only clearly associate each of these 'specific' models to their respective designation on the configurator, press releases, commercials... but also clearly badge the vehicles themselves. Or people will just get nuts seeing for example the 114i badge on the trunk of potentially a dozen different rear ends!

So if for instance the stock Concept Active Tourer will keep this designation and be badged as "1 Series Active Tourer", then if we take a 114i I think it should have the 114i badge on the rear side of the trunk and the Active Tourer badge not on the left side (like the 5er GT) but also on the right side, immediately next to the series/engine designation, so that the model is immediately identified:





The left-side of the trunk may then be used for the xDrive badge on the concerned models.

The same reasoning would apply to the other 'specific' models of the 1er range: 1er City Urbanic, 1er F.A.S.T (which I guess will be labeled as 1er GT)...

Last edited by advantage20; 11-28-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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      11-28-2012, 01:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Not at all. I'm arguing that the S63 is more than just an N63 with a different tune, and thus that even in the new FI era you can't turn a regular series engine into an M engine with a simple tune. At least that's how it's been thus far with the sole exception of the 1M, and I hope that's how it continues. The 1M is a great car, but its engine doesn't feel as special as full-on M engines; I think they just got away with it because the N54 is such a great engine in the first place, but still not up to full M standards.
Oh, I agree with all of that. I think this car will have a lot more interesting than just an N20 with more boost. I've had a few I6 BMW's and one I4 and am excited to see the trend towards more fours for the US market and the potential for another S series four banger.
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      11-28-2012, 02:11 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
If there is any truth to this report, I guess it would actually refer to an M Performance M135i sedan (naturally xDrive, not FWD). The power given makes sense as the M135i hatch is @320ps. But I can't see a full-blown M model based upon the 1er sedan... because it would closely compete against the 340ps M2 GranCoupé that Scott26 confirmed to us, and 2 M models so close from each other just doesn't make sense. (On the contrary, I presume there will be a big enough status and price difference between M3 sedan and M4 GranCoupé to justify both coexisting)

So I'd say that either we will get a 320ps M135i M Performance sedan + a 340ps hardcore M2 GranCoupé, or this report is wrong because it actually refers to only the second model, the M2 GranCoupé, not to a 1er sedan M.

100% agree.. This is really confusing stuff now

What is most confusing is that BMW would make the M135 / M235 / M135 Sedan all powered by the Turbo Six, and then slap a 4 cylinder on the M2, M2 GC ? How would that make any sense? I just don't get that they can market the more expensive M models with less cylinders, no more power, obvisouly less torque and more turbo lag that the M Perf model counterparts which we know already have the 6 Turbo (M135 Hatch)

Can anyone explain this to me?
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      11-28-2012, 02:29 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
100% agree.. This is really confusing stuff now

What is most confusing is that BMW would make the M135 / M235 / M135 Sedan all powered by the Turbo Six, and then slap a 4 cylinder on the M2, M2 GC ? How would that make any sense? I just don't get that they can market the more expensive M models with less cylinders, no more power, obvisouly less torque and more turbo lag that the M Perf model counterparts which we know already have the 6 Turbo (M135 Hatch)

Can anyone explain this to me?
You got it, you'll be asked to pay more for a 4 cylinders than for 6

It makes sense that the M6 gets an 8 cylinders, the M4 a 6 cylinder and the M2 a 4 cylinders, status-wise and CO² emissions-wise. But indeed it apparently doesn't make sense to have the lower market M135i get the inline-6 while the hardcore M2 get 2 less cylinders...

I guess they will justify this difference as follows: the M135i is a GT oriented (sporty indeed but more cruising oriented than brutal driving) compact car, significantly sporty but otherwise a practical everyday car (hatch), sufficiently comfortable and very pleasant to drive around due to its very onctuous engine (large 3.0 displacement, not excessively high turbo boost...); while the M2 will be marketed as a hardcore, lightweight (4 cylinders) compact coupé (not as practical as the hatch), with better weight ratio (lighter engine), driving much more raw and not as onctuous as the inline-6 (less displacement, big turbo pressure...) and naturally less comfortable (so clearly a hardcore small supercar more than a GT), but ultimately the exclusivity, lightweight and higher performance numbers of the M2 (not difficult technically) will justify it having 2 less cylinders, and M enthusiasts will accept it as so, thinking that the drawbacks of an inline-4 vs the previous 1M inline-6 and vs the current M135i inline-6 are all good

Last edited by advantage20; 11-28-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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      11-28-2012, 02:39 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
You got it, you'll be asked to pay more for a 4 cylinders than for 6

It makes sense that the M6 gets an 8 cylinders, the M4 a 6 cylinder and the M2 a 4 cylinders, status-wise and CO² emissions-wise. But indeed it apparently doesn't make sense to have the lower market M135i get the inline-6 while the hardcore M2 get 2 less cylinders...

I guess they will justify this difference as follows: the M135i is a GT oriented (sporty indeed but more cruising oriented than brutal driving) compact car, significantly sporty but otherwise a practical everyday car (hatch), sufficiently comfortable and very pleasant to drive around due to its very onctuous engine (large 3.0 displacement, not excessively high turbo boost...); while the M2 will be marketed as a hardcore, lightweight (4 cylinders) compact coupé (not as practical as the hatch), with better weight ratio (lighter engine), driving much more raw and not as onctuous as the inline-6 (less displacement, big turbo pressure...) and naturally less comfortable (so clearly a hardcore small supercar more than a GT), but ultimately the exclusivity, lightweight and higher performance numbers of the M2 (not difficult technically) will justify it having 2 less cylinders, and M enthusiasts will accept it as so, thinking that the drawbacks of an inline-4 vs the previous 1M inline-6 and vs the current M135i inline-6 are all good
Maybe, maybe this makes sense for a M135 hatch vs. an M2 Coupe
but there is no way in hell BMW can justify or market a M135 Sedan with 6 cylinders alongside an M2 GC with 4 cylinders (both being 4 door cars)

Another point is Throttle response and turbo lag. The next gen M3 and M4 are rumored to have Tri-turbo and BMW is trying very hard to keep the throttle response and not induce massive turbo lag on these new M turbo motors. They so far have successed somewhat with the M5/M6 X5M X6M motors

With this new M2, there is no way in hell that they can get 340 Hp out of the 2.0 Turbo four and preserve good throttle response with minimal turbo lag. Heck they can barely achieve that with the Turbo six that makes less Hp

Thoughts?

Last edited by Ramos; 11-28-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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      11-28-2012, 02:47 PM   #58
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M really stands for money these days for BMW.
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      11-28-2012, 03:16 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW-RaceR View Post
Front headlights look the be quite simular the normal 1-series. But yet, something with the car/render/headlights makes it look so much better! It looks really good!
i agree 100%. i think that render looks a million times better than the current 1.
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      11-28-2012, 04:14 PM   #60
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This article is BS. The only car to see will be the M235i M Performance GranCoupé and the M2 GranCoupé. No "M1 Sedan" be it the current F2X or the next 1 Series Generation. What is likely to be however is 1 Series M Performance Tourer, and all those other pseudo ///M vans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Maybe, maybe this makes sense for a M135 hatch vs. an M2 Coupe
but there is no way in hell BMW can justify or market a M135 Sedan with 6 cylinders alongside an M2 GC with 4 cylinders (both being 4 door cars)

Another point is Throttle response and turbo lag. The next gen M3 and M4 are rumored to have Tri-turbo and BMW is trying very hard to keep the throttle response and not induce massive turbo lag on these new M turbo motors. They so far have successed somewhat with the M5/M6 X5M X6M motors

With this new M2, there is no way in hell that they can get 340 Hp out of the 2.0 Turbo four and preserve good throttle response with minimal turbo lag. Heck they can barely achieve that with the Turbo six that makes less Hp

Thoughts?
If they "successed" with the M5/M6, why can't they with a 4 banger M2? BMW 1.5l I4 makes 170 PS, Mercedes AMG 2.0l I4 makes 350 PS, Ford EcoBoost 1.0l I3 makes 150 PS, Mitsubishi EVO X 2.0l I4 makes 400 PS. Funny you can't believe BMW will be able to make that when you are convinced by what BMW has now.
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      11-28-2012, 04:21 PM   #61
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I feel like this news is leaking at a strategic time, as I just yesterday saw spy pics of Audi's A1 with pretty much no camouflage track testing. I don't doubt a model like this is coming, but it just seems to be getting really confusing all of a sudden. We got news saying the 2er GC will be the small "sedan," now we're hearing this, with the possibility if a new fwd 1er M sedan? I think some of this leaked news is just to keep hype up and keep everyone (including competitors) guessing. It'll be interesting to see what happens, though. I do agree with it not making sense to make a new 1er M sedan with less cylinders and power than the M135i hatch. Even though that's not available here in the US, we enthusiasts (who would likely be buying such cars), are well informed enough to know if we're being hosed.
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      11-28-2012, 04:32 PM   #62
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Back to the Future...

...this takes us back to the roots of M3: the E30. I'll take one...and follow on with an EVO version...
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      11-28-2012, 04:38 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faust View Post
I don't quite get it. Scott26 never mentioned a RWD sedan on the current platform. Instead he mentioned a FWD sedan of the next generation 1-Series and a RWD 2-Series Gran Coupe. Which platform this will be based on? And what is the point to arrive around 2015 since in theory there will also be a 2-Series Gran Coupe M AND a FWD 1-Series sedan? Confusing stuff.
There will not be both a FWD and RWD 1 Series sedan. It is one or the other. The 2 Series Gran Coupe, on the other hand, will be RWD for certain.

I am more inclined to believe that the 1 Series sedan itself will be FWD, as SCOTT suggested in his recent post. We already know that, starting next generation, 1 Series hatchback models will move to the FWD platform shared with all other future 1 Series models. It seems most likely to me that the current F20/F21 (and E84 X1) are going to be the last of the RWD 1 Series vehicles. Everthing else coming out from now on in this class will probably use UKL.

The good news for those who really want a RWD three-box, four-door vehicle smaller than a 3 Series (I may be one of those people myself at some point), there will be the 2GC. And, plus, there will in all likelihood be an M model and six cylinder models as well. Of course, it will be priced higher than the 1 Series sedan, however. Still, I expect an M2 GC to be no more expensive than an M335i (or M340i) which to me makes it a more attractive proposition than the larger offering.
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      11-28-2012, 04:47 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
I really can't see BMW developing a FWD ///M car. That just doesn't make sense.
I would not be surprised at all if they do eventually. But, for now at least, I would expect the M2 to be the entry M product (I refer to M-proper products here, not M Performance Vehicle offerings). Sometime further down the road when the 1 Series hatchbacks switch to UKL, I'll bet M Division will jump in the game against the A45 and RS3, and probably also employ AWD as those two do.
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      11-28-2012, 05:30 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Don't hold your breath. Even M engines that are based on regular series counterparts (which in the past was most of them, actually) were reworked substantially to safely produce that much power before being put into an M car. It's not just a matter of adjusting boost and a few maps.
it was for the 1M
Yep!
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      11-28-2012, 05:44 PM   #66
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If it looks like that with rwd, I'd definitely buy it.
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