[R N M]

Originally Posted by spooni

You're probably right. A few 20 min test drives really can't be enough to grasp the experience of any car really. I passed up a manual T about a year ago, for 91k. Wish I would of just stretched my budget at the time

I still need to go out and drive a few other competitors, but that base manual .2 was the best one I've driven. The trans in that car was sublime! I can only imagine the T taking the up a few notches.

I also tested a few 911s and depending on the options they drive differently imo. I wanted the sportiest setup and felt the T was perfect as it comes with Sport PASM suspension, sport exhaust and other cool features. I preferred it over C2S which was hard to find with all sport options. I also HIGHLY recommend rear wheel steering- it really is a game changer, not only handling but high speed stability.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by spooni

You're probably right. A few 20 min test drives really can't be enough to grasp the experience of any car really. I passed up a manual T about a year ago, for 91k. Wish I would of just stretched my budget at the time

I still need to go out and drive a few other competitors, but that base manual .2 was the best one I've driven. The trans in that car was sublime! I can only imagine the T taking the up a few notches.

An guy I know has a Black on Black 911T. He did a Germany delivery and spent some time on the Ring before shipping it to Canada. I didn't get any seat time, but we had my car and his parked next to one another and he said, (joking I suspect) that he'd trade me. His car is sweet.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by R N M

I have 991.2 T in PDK though.
A short test drive will not make you appreciate the value of a 911.

911 = true sports car with ZERO compromises.
It has the perfect seating position, great build quality, reliability, strong brand prestige, huge aftermarket support, huge enthusiast community.
Also things like storage space and rear seats. I fit both my kids in the back with no issues.

Driving these cars is such a pleasure - perfect visibility, suspension doesn’t beat you up, handling is amazing. My car has RAS(rear wheel steer) - i can take the same corners going about 10-20mph more than my F80. No body roll and then you can step on throttle right away as it puts the power down with no issue. The 991.2 cars are easy to mod to get another 100hp with ECU tune. The 3.0 flat 6 is great engine and sounds amazing if u have sport exhaust.

There is really no other sports car in the $100-125k range that i would pick over a used 911.

BTW i have tested most of the competition - MB AMG-GT, AM Vantage, Lexus LC, Audi R8, Maserati GranTurismo. I think the V8s sound great and each of those cars are great in their own way. But if you prefer the total package with direct inputs for steering, throttle, braking, great manual or PDK well then 911 is the only choice.

Well the rear engine actually IS a compromise, that’s why it needs that rear wheel steering, active suspension, ever-widening chassis and tires and the other compensating features to remain relevant. You can overcome a lot with exotic engineering and money, but with that same time and money invested into something like the Cayman layout, it’s even better, with no compromise. It also gets harder and harder to stay on top as everyone else catches up with more conventional layouts that perform better per the money and time invested.

Do your kids have legs?

[R N M]

Originally Posted by RM7

Well the rear engine actually IS a compromise, that’s why it needs that rear wheel steering, active suspension, ever-widening chassis and tires and the other compensating features to remain relevant. You can overcome a lot with exotic engineering and money, but with that same time and money invested into something like the Cayman layout, it’s even better, with no compromise. It also gets harder and harder to stay on top as everyone else catches up with more conventional layouts that perform better per the money and time invested.

Do your kids have legs?

A base 911 even without SPASM and RAS handles better than 99% of sport cars.
The rear engine design allows it to put down the power in RWD configuration. The driving inputs are unmatched if you want the most direct feel and you can beat on the car at the track without worrying it will fall apart. Try doing that in AM Vantage.

The Cayman is a 2 seater with cramped interior, while 911 has spacious cabin that can fit almost any body type. My kids are 9 and 5, sit in the back with plenty of room using booster seats. Porsche even sells special kid seats for toddlers. Cayman is a great car but doesn’t offer as much versatility as a 911.

Please tell me which car can do everything 911 does?

[Equilibrandt]

At 100k, you're pretty close to a few lightly-used M2 CSs.

This thread makes it clear that everyone's calculus about what a 'car' is 'worth' is quite different. Is a P-Car twice the cost of your //M? Is it twice as good? Is that not how the math works? Impossible to tell until you get seat time.

I've always wanted a GT3 or Turbo... but at current prices, it'd be asinine for me to not spring for a sub 120k GT4, an M2CS, even a C7/C8 if it felt right.

+1 to living in California and seeing 99.911% of P-Car owners driving them purely for aesthetics or as an investment hedge. Shame most of them won't see redline ever in their life. But Porsche catering to that exact wealthy clientele is probably half the reason why P-Cars are doing opposite-depreciation curves.

[Humdizzle]

mid engine is better for performance in most scenarios.. if rear bias was better we'd see the 918 and carrera gt running rear engine layouts instead of mid. Rear engine does off some improvements though in acceleration and braking.

having extra seats is usually a performance drawback. but this helps porsche sell more 911s. helping offset the cost of the GT cars. If porsche didn't sell a base 911 with rear seats and just did a GT3 and GT2.. the cost would be on par with ferrari/lambo supercars.

And to be fair porsche has been slowly moving the engine forward each gen. The weight distribution for a 992 GT3 is 40/60, and a ferrari F8 is 42/58, a cayman is 45/55.

[Wheelwright]

In my opinion Cayman GTS 4.0 is a better car than most 911s, because it has a more classic, analog Porsche feeling, which is quickly going away. It has a more driver-oriented interior, because unlike 911 you can see all the dials in the gauge-cluster clearly (in 911 they crammed 5 gauges so the outer ones are obscured by the steering wheel rim). And it has more physical buttons than 911, which means tactile, satisfying, and direct connection between the driver and the machine (I cannot stand this cheap feeling when pressing capacitive buttons in the 911 where the entire plastic panel gives way, which is akin to operating a bargain-price washing machine). Also in the Cayman there is almost no black piano trim, which scratches easily and is a dirt magnet. And as a driver's car Cayman also wins, because its engine is inside the cabin so you can hear it better, not to mention this central position gives it more balanced and safer handling. And it has a superior mechanical gearbox (6-speed versus the gimmicky 7-speed in the 911), so in conclusion unless you move up to something like 911 GT3 I consider Cayman to be a bargain compared to most 911s, which still manages to trounce them.

[Equilibrandt]

And if visceral is what you're looking for and you're cool forgoing some of the creature comforts, I'd try to get a drive in a 2023 Lotus Emira.. hydraulic steering over electronic; I'm sure it'll be quite a visceral car to drive! Not to mention you can get a manual w/ a Toyota 6cyl or a DCT with an AMG turbo 4 cyl (365 hp!).

[R N M]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

In my opinion Cayman GTS 4.0 is a better car than most 911s, because it has a more classic, analog Porsche feeling, which is quickly going away. It has a more driver-oriented interior, because unlike 911 you can see all the dials in the gauge-cluster clearly (in 911 they crammed 5 gauges so the outer ones are obscured by the steering wheel rim). And it has more physical buttons than 911, which means tactile, satisfying, and direct connection between the driver and the machine (I cannot stand this cheap feeling when pressing capacitive buttons in the 911 where the entire plastic panel gives way, which is akin to operating a bargain-price washing machine). Also in the Cayman there is almost no black piano trim, which scratches easily and is a dirt magnet. And as a driver's car Cayman also wins, because its engine is inside the cabin so you can hear it better, not to mention this central position gives it more balanced and safer handling. And it has a superior mechanical gearbox (6-speed versus the gimmicky 7-speed in the 911), so in conclusion unless you move up to something like 911 GT3 I consider Cayman to be a bargain compared to most 911s, which still manages to trounce them.

Again if you offer most people a choice of 911 or Cayman, most select the 911. The sales #s illustrate this even though 911 is much more expensive.

The mid-engined Cayman is a great car but for driving in all types of situations, its hard to beat the 3l flat 6 turbo 911s. The Cayman 4.0 GTS variants are extremely hard to get unfortunately.

The current gen Cayman is using 991.2 911 gen interior parts still. I prefer them as well compared to new 992 layout with all digital stuff.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

In my opinion Cayman GTS 4.0 is a better car than most 911s, because it has a more classic, analog Porsche feeling, which is quickly going away. It has a more driver-oriented interior, because unlike 911 you can see all the dials in the gauge-cluster clearly (in 911 they crammed 5 gauges so the outer ones are obscured by the steering wheel rim). And it has more physical buttons than 911, which means tactile, satisfying, and direct connection between the driver and the machine (I cannot stand this cheap feeling when pressing capacitive buttons in the 911 where the entire plastic panel gives way, which is akin to operating a bargain-price washing machine). Also in the Cayman there is almost no black piano trim, which scratches easily and is a dirt magnet. And as a driver's car Cayman also wins, because its engine is inside the cabin so you can hear it better, not to mention this central position gives it more balanced and safer handling. And it has a superior mechanical gearbox (6-speed versus the gimmicky 7-speed in the 911), so in conclusion unless you move up to something like 911 GT3 I consider Cayman to be a bargain compared to most 911s, which still manages to trounce them.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone compare a 911 to "operating a bargain-price washing machine".

[spooni]

Saw this the other day at my local Porsche dealer… this is peak idiot car market. USED, and $339k?

I'm sorry. I know this may be the "going" rate for a 992 GT3, but holy Moses.

[p0p]

I had the luck of getting invited to a Porsche track event where we got to drive all of the Porsches.

We did:
Carrera S (992)and the Panamera GTS on the race track
Cayman S Autocross
Both SUV street

To my surprise I like the Panamera GTS the most fallowed by the 718, but totally different driving style.

The 911 just lacked the power, but an awesome car.
I have also been on the race track in a 991 GT3 and that is out of this world on the race track. but as you said their prices is... well forget about it.

As others have said the 718 (or GTS) will be an awesome car for HPDE

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by spooni

Saw this the other day at my local Porsche dealer… this is peak idiot car market. USED, and $339k?

I'm sorry. I know this may be the "going" rate for a 992 GT3, but holy Moses.

It’s a great deal. Good color, too. Take it!

[Fined]

I'm fairly enamored with my 997.2 Carrera GTS. I think I'll be keeping it even if I add other cars, even other 911. I did drive several 991.1 and 991.2 and felt they were good but a little too polished for my taste. The GTS is benefiting from some tweaks as I own it over the years to get the real nature uncovered.

There are so many combinations of options that actually do make a difference to how the car drives I think there is some combo of options and equipment that would make most serious drivers satisfied.

I did own a Cayman S at the same time as my Carrera GTS and I found the Cayman to be less entertaining so I replaced it with an M2 that I like a bit more.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by spooni

I've been enamored with the idea of owning a 911 for sometime now. It seems like the natural progression coming from E9X, or a great stablemate.

I drove a 991.1 C2S PDK a few years ago and was left completely underwhelmed. The PDK is nice, but lacks the drama the E9X 7 speed box gives. Very linear power curve but didn't feel fast. This car was for sale at $62k at the time(late 2020), now that same car would be 80. Insane.

Since then I've driven a couple 991s, and a 992 C2S. The only car that gave my willy a tickle was a base C2 manual 991.2. Now with the P car market going to the moon, I don't see the value in these cars with this market(paying retail for a 4-5 year 911 is just madness IMHO).. I've always lusted after the GT cars(mainly the 997 and 991.2 manual), but holy moses, the prices on those have gone MAD.

However, I'm hoping to get into a 991.2 Carrera T manual at some point, realistically in the next 2-3 years. Hoping the values come down a bit. Otherwise I'm looking into a different sports car or GT car for a weekend cruiser, and occasion HPDE companion.

What do y'all think? What would you buy with a $100k budget? Overpriced 911, V8 R8 manual, Aston?

I drove a mate's '87 Carrera with G50 box with hydraulic actuated clutch was the bees knees and nice investment too.

[p0p]

Originally Posted by spooni

Saw this the other day at my local Porsche dealer… this is peak idiot car market. USED, and $339k?

I'm sorry. I know this may be the "going" rate for a 992 GT3, but holy Moses.

Pics don't do it justice until you see it in person.

My business partner got an allocation to build one and just received it. He paid about 170k, but sadly is going to get sold for around 300k

he even got the shark blue

[spooni]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

It’s a great deal. Good color, too. Take it!

That car isn't worth 300k. No way Jose.

That's 720S money.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by spooni

That car isn't worth 300k. No way Jose.

That's 720S money.

it just depends what you're after. lots of cars offer what a 720s does: 570s, 488, F8, 992 turbo.

nobody offers a manual + NA engine

[Alfisti]

I just took my new to me 997.2 for a spin. Tyres are less than half tread so a bit sketchy but damn, i forgot how "harsh" these cars are compared to modern cars or even the 991. It's loud, bumpy and you feel every mechanical piece at work. This is for better or worse, depends what you are looking for but winding it out in 3rd gear is quite the pleasing experience as it has JUUUUUST enough power to make you smile but not so much that "oh fuck i'm at 140 in 2nd gear so better slow down".

Each to his own, I may well decide after a couple years that I was something more civilised and want to run 2 cars, not 3, but if you want a sports car that feels like it was cut from a piece of granite...... 'tis good fun. For under $60K USD (all in with taxes etc) and 40,000 miles it was similarly priced to a newer Mustang or a E92 M3 in excellent shape. It was more, don't get me wrong, but not by a monumental amount.

In saying that, the dude above with kids 9 and 5, must be amputees. Mine are 10 and 6 and keep in mind they are not allowed in the front seat 'till age 13 here so my eldest is too tall to sit behind me and the youngest is horribly squished behind me and I am driving with knees on my chin. I am 6ft and looking to lose another 35 pounds but still, it's tight as a fishes arse. I will actually have the seat behind me removed for the 6 yr old so i can install his child seat and gain 3 inches or so.

[x622]

Originally Posted by spooni

That car isn't worth 300k. No way Jose.

That's 720S money.

Lmao, 720s aren't 300k. I looked at 720s too, build quality is shit and all I have around me is Scottsdale Mclaren, which are abject douchebags.



https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ngId=631841580

This very lil' mac has been sitting at this dealer for 9 months.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I just took my new to me 997.2 for a spin. Tyres are less than half tread so a bit sketchy but damn, i forgot how "harsh" these cars are compared to modern cars or even the 991. It's loud, bumpy and you feel every mechanical piece at work. This is for better or worse, depends what you are looking for but winding it out in 3rd gear is quite the pleasing experience as it has JUUUUUST enough power to make you smile but not so much that "oh fuck i'm at 140 in 2nd gear so better slow down".

Each to his own, I may well decide after a couple years that I was something more civilised and want to run 2 cars, not 3, but if you want a sports car that feels like it was cut from a piece of granite...... 'tis good fun. For under $60K USD (all in with taxes etc) and 40,000 miles it was similarly priced to a newer Mustang or a E92 M3 in excellent shape. It was more, don't get me wrong, but not by a monumental amount.

In saying that, the dude above with kids 9 and 5, must be amputees. Mine are 10 and 6 and keep in mind they are not allowed in the front seat 'till age 13 here so my eldest is too tall to sit behind me and the youngest is horribly squished behind me and I am driving with knees on my chin. I am 6ft and looking to lose another 35 pounds but still, it's tight as a fishes arse. I will actually have the seat behind me removed for the 6 yr old so i can install his child seat and gain 3 inches or so.

I'd agree with this. My 993 isn't nearly as comfortable as the newer versions but it does what fit the bill for me. Having said that I had it in Toronto a few times last year and the roads there are complete shit. I'm out north of Kingston now and the roads are pretty decent. I absolutely hated driving it in T.O.

[Alfisti]

I think a 997 is a bit more civilised than the 993 but yeah the roads are abysmal. Just absolute shite.