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      02-11-2021, 07:31 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Motorradist View Post
People are shitting on BMW for "catering" to the chinese market, but you know what, they're buying new cars. We aren't.
So true, and we shouldn’t blame a company going where the profits are but at least we still have other choices even today, so no worries.
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      02-11-2021, 07:39 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ADEe92 View Post
He did point out that the decline began in earnest in 2015. Doug makes some good points, and walking around the dealer last service I have to admit my e92 is probably the last BMW I'll buy after driving them for 20+ years - nothing appeals. I'll just keep driving the 320d (and keep my warmed over e30 as the fun car) until either electric cars become affordable, or hydrogen ends up winning - hydrogen may happen yet in Australia given our proximity to Japan / South Korea, and their commitment to hydrogen to hit their emissions targets.

The "M-car" argument is bit moot - the entire range used to be entertaining to drive. BMW began pimping out the 'M' brand in the early 1980s when you could buy an e21 "Motorsport" from the dealer, with M badges, Recaros and a couple of stripes - basically the forerunner to the M-Performance packages you get now. You could also get e36 318i coupes kitted out with full M3 body kits from the factory etc. It's nothing new.

They're not necessarily done - they've seemed 'lost' before. The Bangle cars were slammed back in the day, but they've dated better than a lot of other cars of the early 2000s and are now seen as 'peak BMW', go figure!
I’m with you on the e92, had one in black and it was a thing of sleek beauty. Many would come up to me to acknowledge this! As I said above I should have never sold it, but when I saw the lines of the F80CP I became child like again and needed to have it with its stunning good looks and performance numbers. But oh woe is me to come to find out, it had lost a BMW soul.
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      02-11-2021, 04:25 PM   #91
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TTesla certainly has the panache these day of "oh, you have a Tesla!?" Something that BMW once certainly had, but is now faded into the background to a degree.
If someone tells me they just bought a Telsa I usually go 'Nice! Did you get a good paint job or do you need to send it back? Panel gaps look alright? Did you double check to make sure your roof won't fall off?'

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      02-12-2021, 12:53 PM   #92
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Automakers scared of Tesla? What a load of hogwash. Tesla is two quarters away from bankruptcy.
Not if it will be propped up by the govt
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      02-12-2021, 04:20 PM   #93
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Apparently a lot of Tesla’s assembly and paint issues have been addressed in the latest iteration of the model 3 and model Y. Search on Sandy Munro - he said the example he saw was equivalent to anything from Europe (referring to Audi, BMW and Mercedes).
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      02-14-2021, 10:56 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
This dead horse has been beaten to no end.
Failed analogy. The horse isn't dead yet. They're still making new versions.
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      02-14-2021, 11:03 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
Funny how everybody is hating on BMW for focusing on SUV's and comfort when every single luxury brand is doing the same. That is what sells, it is a business at the end of the day.

No other brand still builds manual sports coupes and sedans. BMW does.
No one is hating BMW for building SUVs or making money. They're hating on BMW for their arrogance, their insulting nature, their horrific designs, their ditching of BMW design themes, and being tone deaf to their customers. Read this thread and others carefully because the problem is very deep and it really goes to the core of the individuals that are in charge of the company. Some would call it disgusting.
I believe BMW builds a good vehicle... there's even a chance I actually buy an M340i or M550i this year, but I have to admit I'm no longer a "fan" of the brand. For example I wouldn't buy any clothing or accessories with a BMW logo because I no longer find the brand's identity attractive. I even canceled my BMW CCA account after decades of membership.

This isn't sustainable BMW.
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      02-14-2021, 11:30 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
I believe BMW builds a good vehicle... there's even a chance I actually buy an M340i or M550i this year, but I have to admit I'm no longer a "fan" of the brand. For example I wouldn't buy any clothing or accessories with a BMW logo because I no longer find the brand's identity attractive. I even canceled my BMW CCA account after decades of membership.

This isn't sustainable BMW.
Now they will go bankrupt because you did this...
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      02-14-2021, 02:20 PM   #97
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I guess looks and design are very subjective.

The new grills in the 3/4 series are... I dunno.

But I have to be honest, the more I look at them, the more they grow on me.

I guess I give props to BMW simply for being bold enough to even try it. I see comments about BMW being arrogant, but like it or not, that level of arrogance in their design throughout the years is part of the reason we are even here posting on boards like this to begin with.

I’m sure there’s other younger enthusiasts like me on the boards, but I’ve also noticed that a lot of posters here are of the older generation. I’m 33, and again, the new designs grow on me.

I was taken back by the X7 grille. But I want to purchase one because SUVs in that class are about road presence. And I quite like the looks of it.

My wife loves the new looks of the M4. My kids (12 and 10) talk about that they like the looks of the M4 simply because it’s different.

Now, here’s the part where some of you whine about things like performance. Here’s the part where I remind that you 99% of buyers in any market of vehicles aren’t gonna come close to using that level of performance. It’s like the dudes buying Ford raptors, and yet the majority of raptor drivers use it as pavement queens.

BMW isn’t gonna cater to “real” enthusiasts simply because they would’ve went bankrupt long ago doing that. They are gonna continue catering to the dudes who wanna stunt and the women wanting a BMW simply because it’s a BMW. They are who pays the bills, whether that upsets the “real” car guys or not.

I love my M6. I love the performance and all that.

I also love the fact that I can drive downtown and stunt my ass off simply because it’s a beautiful car. Y’all can get upset about that all you want, but the reality will be that BMW stays in business from far more people like me than the opposite.

This Doug dude...I get he has a following and I respect that. But just speaking for myself, His videos are beyond bland, and his taste in what’s considered a good looking car is very different than mine. He’s like a lot of other dudes: whines about pushing new things simply because he’s a bland guy himself.
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      02-14-2021, 02:32 PM   #98
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and by the way, I'm personally glad they drop more "lite" models.

i love the performance of the M8 Coupe...buuuut, I have to be real: when in god's name will i ever get close to using it in the real world?

I rather get the M850i gran coupe. it's 30k cheaper AND i get the sunroof to go with it. I love the all around rides, and the M850i represents that balance for me. road trips, looks, luxury, and more than enough power and performance.
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      02-14-2021, 05:27 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Its not literal, on top of the world is a figure of speech. Cadillac was once the standard in the US, now look, I think the point is pretty clear. What the future holds is unknown.
Ironically, BMW today is like Cadillac in the '70s and '80s. A once great marque, reduced to begging for scraps from buyers who can't, or aren't interested in driving. And today's Cadillac is the BMW of the '70s and '80s.

At that time, BMWs were purchased by 'in the know' enthusiasts interested in superior driving dynamics. Most people in N America were unfamiliar with the brand. You had to justify driving a BMW instead of a familiar, heavy metal monster from Detroit. At some point in the last 15 - 20 years, BMW became known more as a social prestige brand and has lost its claim to driving dynamics. But most of today's BMW buyers are more concerned with looking awesome at the mall rather than rowing a 6-speed or balancing traction in a high-speed curve.

On the other hand, Cadillac now has no social prestige, yet drives circles around most any BMW. Cadillac builds cars for drivers - naturally aspirated, enough power, superior handling to most any BMW, manual transmissions, RWD, you get the gist.

Looking forward to my next drivers car, a Caddy, a C8 Vette, or maybe a Cayman. Sadly, BMW doesn't have anything that makes the cut....
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      02-14-2021, 06:15 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by tetsuo111 View Post
...On the other hand, Cadillac now has no social prestige, yet drives circles around most any BMW.
"Cadillac drives circles around BMW".....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo111 View Post
Cadillac builds cars for drivers - naturally aspirated, enough power, superior handling to most any BMW, manual transmissions, RWD, you get the gist.
Do Caddys still have the body roll that would make you feel like a small boat on stormy seas?
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      02-14-2021, 06:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by YolkyPalky View Post
"Cadillac drives circles around BMW".....

Do Caddys still have the body roll that would make you feel like a small boat on stormy seas?
This really shouldn't be surprising anymore. For years the Cadillac ATS-V and CTS-V were hailed as better driver's cars than their M3 and M5 competition. They do after all ride on the fantastic Alpha Chassis that underpins the Camaro.
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      02-14-2021, 07:27 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
This really shouldn't be surprising anymore. For years the Cadillac ATS-V and CTS-V were hailed as better driver's cars than their M3 and M5 competition. They do after all ride on the fantastic Alpha Chassis that underpins the Camaro.
“For years the Cadillac ATS-V and CTS-V were hailed as better driver's cars than their M3 and M5 competition”
- said no one.
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      02-14-2021, 07:39 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by YolkyPalky View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
This really shouldn't be surprising anymore. For years the Cadillac ATS-V and CTS-V were hailed as better driver's cars than their M3 and M5 competition. They do after all ride on the fantastic Alpha Chassis that underpins the Camaro.
“For years the Cadillac ATS-V and CTS-V were hailed as better driver's cars than their M3 and M5 competition”
- said no one.
Ignorance is bliss...
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      02-15-2021, 12:42 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
I believe BMW builds a good vehicle... there's even a chance I actually buy an M340i or M550i this year, but I have to admit I'm no longer a "fan" of the brand. For example I wouldn't buy any clothing or accessories with a BMW logo because I no longer find the brand's identity attractive. I even canceled my BMW CCA account after decades of membership.

This isn't sustainable BMW.
Agree 100%. I know this probably won't be well received here, but I want to share my story as a former BMW fanatic who still has a flag with the BMW roundel of yore pinned up in my garage. You know...the one over there <<<

I'm 40 years old (nearly 41), and buy and sell cars more often than good sense would allow, whose first passion for cars was with BMW.

I came from a family without means - mother a parochial school teacher, father in insurance - though both extremely thrifty and savvy with money. My father never gave a hoot for cars, but we had a neighbor that was a BMW fan, and probably germinated the seed of my initial BMW mania. He had a E30 325i that he was constantly wrenching on in his garage. In a household with nothing but cheap domestic cars (one of which was a company car - my father's Chevy Corsica), the neighbor's mount was something mysterious and - quite literally - foreign. Growing up, I watched as BMW took title after title in various racing circles, eager to drive one myself one day. After graduating from college in 2002 and taking a job in the DC area, I found my coveted BMW still out of reach and settled for a used 2000 Audi S4. New to the northern VA area, I made friends with the local BMW club, and was soon rubbing elbows with a bunch of young fellows that had taken HELOCs on their pre-housing bubble Loudon County condos, unwisely purchasing new E46 M3s with the substantial proceeds (ouch!) Country drive after country drive, I always showed up with my inferior Audi mount, wanting to be a true member of that club.

Eventually, good fortune allowed me to follow my dream and buy a used 2004 stripper E46 M3 with SMG2 transmission. It was Alpine White with M Alcantara seats (a very rare option!) and few options to keep the weight down. The owner was a rich fellow selling for basically wholesale price, and I flew to Tennessee to pick it up. It was my unicorn, and it was finally mine. Life was good.

Afterward, I owned many BMWs: a 2003 E46 330i ZHP, a 2005 E46 M3 Dinan S2, a 1998 E36 M3 Coupe completely track prepped with more mods than I can count, a 2009 E92 335i (European delivery from the Welt), 2009 E90 M3 sedan, a 2011 135i with more mods and BMW performance parts than you can shake a stick at, and (with kids) a 2013 BMW X5 35i.

I can still tell you how to index a VANOS spline gear into the head cam of an E36 courtesy of my money shifting mishap with my E36 at VIR, after which I had to rebuild the entire head. Whether it was installing aftermarket suspension bits or just adding minimalist cosmetics, I've spent my share of dollars modding and working on BMWs.

In the mid-late 2010s, I reached an odd place. The E90/92 M3 felt gutless on the street since I had to wind it out so far to make power, and the F80 that was coming was out of my price range.

Seeing many advantages, I switched to a 2013 Audi S4 in 2015, and loved it. It had the same all-rounded street car appeal that BMW used to have: fantastic torque, great interior, nimble, fantastic sound system, practical... But eventually I replaced it with a 2018 Audi S5 in fall of 2017. This car was fantastic visually and from an interior perspective, but the engine lacked character, and the transmission was one of the worst I'd ever driven.

Then it's 2019, and I'm seeing a car manufacturer offering a car with 90% of the luxury features that I have in my current car, solid looks, the ability to drive itself (eventually), and a 3.2 second 0-60 time for $65k! It almost seemed too good to be true. Soon enough I went to test drive one, and found they only had a lesser (non-performance) version available for drive. Well, even THAT one just about knocked my socks off from a dead stop. I'm sure you can guess by now I'm talking about the Tesla Model 3, and I'm now driving the Long Range variant. The EV torque was just something that I'd never experienced; the closest I could come to describing the sensation of the near-constant acceleration was of a plane in take-off. I bit into the hype that is electric vehicles with a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance, putting an order on one that day.

Shortly after the Tesla quarterly earnings call a few weeks ago that opened the door for orders to a refreshed Model S, I placed an order for a 2021 Model S. With 3 kids, it'll be a good switch for the family with the extra cargo space and breathing room in the back. And in a post-COVID world, the reality is that I don't drive the back roads to work as much, so highway driving is a larger part of my usage.

You might ask why I no longer crave that visceral feel of rowing gears, and the feedback of the tires in the wheel, struggling to grip the pavement when I'm dropping into and fighting the carousel at Summit Point main. It's not that I don't, but I'll be the first to admit that my priorities with young kids and a job that dominates my time have changed from what they once were. I don't go to the track 5-7 times a year like I used to (this WILL change eventually), and 70% of my driving is taking the family to the vacation home.

Soon after I put down the money for the new S, however, it occurred to me that I'd never spent near this much on a new car. What else could I afford if I were willing to drop this kind of coin? I looked a BMW, Audi, and Porsche, and though the prospects were enticing in some ways (particularly with how finely crafted the interiors were), ultimately, they seemed unsatisfying. Even a well-optioned S7 or loaded M3 (I'm sorry, but those looks!) were no contest for the speed, feature set, and overall aesthetic of the new Model S (my neighbor owns a '20 Model S and I've driven it several times, so I'm pretty familiar with the platform). Honestly, and I realize this is purely subjective, seeing the color options on the new M3 just made me realize how little I know of what BMW has become. There must have been a dozen options for interior seating colors, and all but one of them looked so bizarre it made me wonder what the hell the designers were thinking to make them anything but Individual options.

Add to this the growing ability of Tesla to offload more driving functions to the car when you need to (yes, full self driving it's still years away, in reality, but it's still a very useful feature as it currently stands), and I just can't see buying a car from my former go-to brands unless there are some serious changes made.

To be honest, if I were to buy an ICE at all, it'd probably be to replace the minty fresh 2004 Honda S2000 I sold back in 2015. This, ultimately, is how I see ICE surviving - pursuing its purist roots. In 5-10 years EVs will be a MASSIVE segment of the marketplace. They're cheaper (and more importantly, easier) to maintain and fuel, and ranges are getting to the point where range anxiety will be a thing of the past for everyone but folks in Wyoming. ICE, ultimately, will not be able to compete for the mainstream car segment, or frankly, anything even peripheral to it - as BMW has often done with its sport sedans.

ICE should be going in the opposite direction - don't make MORE features, make less. Lighten cars. Bring back manual transmissions. Eliminate gadgets. Make them fun to drive again. Give drivers a reason to care that a car is about more than how easily you can make it go stupidly fast; because I gotta be honest, EVs have already NAILED that, and their lead will only widen in the future.

Just my 2c.
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      02-15-2021, 08:16 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YolkyPalky View Post
“For years the Cadillac ATS-V and CTS-V were hailed as better driver's cars than their M3 and M5 competition”
- said no one.
try:

Last place is now becoming too familiar to Cadillac’s ATS-V. As before, it proved su*perior to the German sedans in ride and handling. Cutting up through the mountains that surround Death Valley, the ATS-V is a hero. Cadillac’s magnetorheological dampers balance both wheel control and comfort better than the AMG and the M car. The steering feel earned top marks, there’s big grip from the Michelins, and the brake pedal balances effort and travel, providing the right bite when you misjudge a corner and dive in too deep. We didn’t find a road in our travels that the ATS-V couldn’t master. So why didn’t it finish higher?
We call the 3.6-liter twin-turbo V-6 to the witness stand.

Car and Driver 2017.
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      02-15-2021, 11:08 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by tetsuo111 View Post
Ironically, BMW today is like Cadillac in the '70s and '80s. A once great marque, reduced to begging for scraps from buyers who can't, or aren't interested in driving. And today's Cadillac is the BMW of the '70s and '80s.

At that time, BMWs were purchased by 'in the know' enthusiasts interested in superior driving dynamics. Most people in N America were unfamiliar with the brand. You had to justify driving a BMW instead of a familiar, heavy metal monster from Detroit. At some point in the last 15 - 20 years, BMW became known more as a social prestige brand and has lost its claim to driving dynamics. But most of today's BMW buyers are more concerned with looking awesome at the mall rather than rowing a 6-speed or balancing traction in a high-speed curve.

On the other hand, Cadillac now has no social prestige, yet drives circles around most any BMW. Cadillac builds cars for drivers - naturally aspirated, enough power, superior handling to most any BMW, manual transmissions, RWD, you get the gist.

Looking forward to my next drivers car, a Caddy, a C8 Vette, or maybe a Cayman. Sadly, BMW doesn't have anything that makes the cut....
Agree. Mercedes is headed in a similar direction. These companies have either lost what they had, or gave it up willingly in search of something new. What they lost was the enthusiastic support of a customer base developed in the 1980s and 1990s. The 2010s and beyond are a different era for carmakers.

I argue that BMW and Mercedes have questionably sufficient resources to be as successful in the next 30 years, as they have been in the past 30 years. The shift to electric vehicles, and increased competition as always, are strong factors.

The majors (VW, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota) have what it takes to go the distance in the next era. The Koreans seem hungry enough to invest, and the Hyundai global enterprise is substantial. The niche German brands, BMW and Mercedes, could get pushed into novelty status alongside Tesla, once the majors get their EV businesses into full swing.
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      02-15-2021, 11:55 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Agree. Mercedes is headed in a similar direction. These companies have either lost what they had, or gave it up willingly in search of something new. What they lost was the enthusiastic support of a customer base developed in the 1980s and 1990s. The 2010s and beyond are a different era for carmakers.

I argue that BMW and Mercedes have questionably sufficient resources to be as successful in the next 30 years, as they have been in the past 30 years. The shift to electric vehicles, and increased competition as always, are strong factors.

The majors (VW, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota) have what it takes to go the distance in the next era. The Koreans seem hungry enough to invest, and the Hyundai global enterprise is substantial. The niche German brands, BMW and Mercedes, could get pushed into novelty status alongside Tesla, once the majors get their EV businesses into full swing.
It seems like enthusiasm for cars from the world in general isn't what it used to be. There used to be tons of coupes available but now seems that 98% of cars sales are sedans and SUVs. Almost all of what were previously the enthusiast car companies have diluted their model lineup to include "cars for the people". I understand it from a business perspective as it should lead to more sales with people now being able to buy $35k BMWs, but it's taken the panache out of a lot of the brands and has led a lot of their long time die hard fanboi loyal customer base to dilute elsewhere as well.
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chassis976.00

      02-15-2021, 01:02 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by YolkyPalky View Post
"Cadillac drives circles around BMW".....



Do Caddys still have the body roll that would make you feel like a small boat on stormy seas?
Good doggy. You sound like the new BMW target audience.
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      02-15-2021, 01:12 PM   #109
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Good doggy. You sound like the new BMW target audience.
Apparently the same people now.
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      02-15-2021, 04:33 PM   #110
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Quote:
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Do Caddys still have the body roll that would make you feel like a small boat on stormy seas?
Yup. They gotta lull grandpa to sleep somehow
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