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      08-22-2019, 09:05 PM   #133
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I don't see it the same way as the OP, citing the G01 X3 xdrive30i compared with the X253 GLC300 as an example.
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      08-22-2019, 09:21 PM   #134
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My problem with the entire premise of this post is comparing BMW to Porsche.

I'm sorry but the much more appropriate comparison in the VW Group is Audi...
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      08-22-2019, 10:55 PM   #135
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I'm keeping my E90 for a long time. It's 11 years old, and I still love it. After having a G20 loaner for 3 days, the driving dynamics don't come close to my E90. My 2014 Honda Accord Sport feels similar to the G20. In fact, I test drove a 2019 Accord Sport, and it felt nicer than the G20

Last edited by ny325; 08-22-2019 at 11:08 PM..
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      08-23-2019, 06:31 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ny325 View Post
I'm keeping my E90 for a long time. It's 11 years old, and I still love it. After having a G20 loaner for 3 days, the driving dynamics don't come close to my E90. My 2014 Honda Accord Sport feels similar to the G20. In fact, I test drove a 2019 Accord Sport, and it felt nicer than the G20
Hmmm ok.
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      08-23-2019, 07:24 AM   #137
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... I never started a thread, how did this thread come to exist? The first post here is a bit... out of context without the thread I wrote it in.
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      08-23-2019, 08:25 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
That’s how BMW marketed the 1er, as the true heir to the 2002/E30, but I think the 3 series unfortunately still outsold it 10 to 1, IIRC.
You missed my point. Those cars were not Retro versions of the E30. The 5th gen '05 Mustang looked like correct progression of the design from the 1st generation.
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      08-23-2019, 08:37 AM   #139
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Porsche is a niche player. For example they have sold approx 35k vehicles in the US as of July 2019 of which mostly were suv's.

BMW sold approx 40k vehicles in Jan-Feb alone.

IMO Porsche vs BMW is an apples to oranges comparison. Compare BMW to Audi, Benz, Lexus, Infinity, Aura, etc.
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      08-23-2019, 08:37 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
... I never started a thread, how did this thread come to exist? The first post here is a bit... out of context without the thread I wrote it in.
probably mod saw it become its own topic and just pull it out
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      08-23-2019, 08:57 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Porsche is a niche player. For example they have sold approx 35k vehicles in the US as of July 2019 of which mostly were suv's.

BMW sold approx 40k vehicles in Jan-Feb alone.

IMO Porsche vs BMW is an apples to oranges comparison. Compare BMW to Audi, Benz, Lexus, Infinity, Aura, etc.
This. Porsche accounts for a small percentage in the grand scheme of things.

I think as drivers, a lot of it has to do with how modern vehicles have all become the same. All look the same because of aerodynamics, mpg and safety standards. To build anything remotely different than the "norm" is also insanely expensive and becomes priced out of the range of many enthusiasts.

I've had more interest lately in finding an older "fun" car like an E30 or E46 in manual than anything newer. The excitement to cost ratio of a lot of newer cars simply doesn't make sense. How much more fun can you realistically have on the street with a 300hp car vs. a 600hp car?
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      08-23-2019, 10:14 AM   #142
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It's time BMW spin off ///M as its own brand, and concentrate on making cars in that specific brand to appeal to enthusiasts, and leave the BMW brand to be the German "Toyota."

This way, we can continue to enjoy ///M cars that are not diluted by the plethora of compromises BMW had to make to make cars that appeal to the masses, and BMW don't have to listen to the "purists" old school whiners about how they've lost their way.

This way they can continue to charge a premium for the ///M cars, but keep cost low because sharing of platforms (and parts), but build out ///M cars for every niche and keep their enthusiast focus. Make cars like the M340i the base M, then an M3 would be like Porsche's upper trim S level 911s, and Competition and CS package to round out the top end to go up agains the GTxes.

And you can dumb down the run of the mill 3 series as much as you want to keep it cheap and competitive against the likes of Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics, but still keep the brand competitive advantage.
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      08-23-2019, 10:18 AM   #143
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so you want M to become like Alpina except not Alpina (Alpina is a lot more highway cruiser than M)?
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      08-23-2019, 10:30 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
so you want M to become like Alpina except not Alpina (Alpina is a lot more highway cruiser than M)?
No.

Think the VW and Porsche relationship, where BMW is VW and M is Porsche.
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      08-23-2019, 10:58 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
No.

Think the VW and Porsche relationship, where BMW is VW and M is Porsche.
And which entity in this new BMW conglomerate would cover the Audi/Mercedes market?
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      08-23-2019, 11:09 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
It's time BMW spin off ///M as its own brand, and concentrate on making cars in that specific brand to appeal to enthusiasts, and leave the BMW brand to be the German "Toyota."

This way, we can continue to enjoy ///M cars that are not diluted by the plethora of compromises BMW had to make to make cars that appeal to the masses, and BMW don't have to listen to the "purists" old school whiners about how they've lost their way.

This way they can continue to charge a premium for the ///M cars, but keep cost low because sharing of platforms (and parts), but build out ///M cars for every niche and keep their enthusiast focus. Make cars like the M340i the base M, then an M3 would be like Porsche's upper trim S level 911s, and Competition and CS package to round out the top end to go up agains the GTxes.

And you can dumb down the run of the mill 3 series as much as you want to keep it cheap and competitive against the likes of Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics, but still keep the brand competitive advantage.
Why? When it works fine as it is.

I don't think a basic 518 is anything like an M535i, or an M5.... sorry I'm back in 1985.

It worked almost 30 years ago, works today, so where is the problem?
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      08-23-2019, 11:15 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And which entity in this new BMW conglomerate would cover the Audi/Mercedes market?
If any BMW marketing guys are reading some of this thread, they will know for certain the 'enthusiast' is not in touch with the 'real' competitive marketplace.
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      08-23-2019, 11:44 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
If any BMW marketing guys are reading some of this thread, they will know for certain the 'enthusiast' is not in touch with the 'real' competitive marketplace.
This is why car forums are the worst place to get any perspective on how a car brand is actually doing. Automotive forums are mostly comprised of brand fans emotionally attached to the past. The Subaru forums have been complaining to this day "No hatch, no sale for me!" with the current generation of sedan only WRX/STI. If you polled NASIOC you would swear the current sedan only WRX/STI is a massive failure despite the reality that this current sedan only generation has sold more than any other generation of WRX/STI by a considerable margin.
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      08-23-2019, 12:04 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
This is why car forums are the worst place to get any perspective on how a car brand is actually doing. Automotive forums are mostly comprised of brand fans emotionally attached to the past. The Subaru forums have been complaining to this day "No hatch, no sale for me!" with the current generation of sedan only WRX/STI. If you polled NASIOC you would swear the current sedan only WRX/STI is a massive failure despite the reality that this current sedan only generation has sold more than any other generation of WRX/STI by a considerable margin.
Agree forums are not a good measure of success. Besides the 'laments' for the past, come on a forum to judge 'reliability' and you wouldn't touch any brand/marque with a bargepole.

I get the desire for a more raw experience, the love of classic designs, the nostalgic feelings. But being realistic, we are in a different place than a few years past. It has been mentioned that manufacturers are under legislative constraints, emissions, safety, etc. Then there are the user demands, they have changed over time as well.

Read a few user reviews, (even on this forum) and users will comment more about such things as Carplay and how it is integrated, than the driving dynamics. Says it all, doesn't it.
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      08-23-2019, 12:07 PM   #150
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yup I want to say top complain in the G30 thread is wireless carplay..., follow by no android auto..., follow by lane keep assist not as good as Tesla...
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      08-23-2019, 12:08 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
No.

Think the VW and Porsche relationship, where BMW is VW and M is Porsche.
BMW is no where as big as VW though, if they do that I can only see M being even more niche and smaller (since I would imagine it would go even more hardcore)
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      08-23-2019, 12:11 PM   #152
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lol people buy cars for the clout. so why would they care about dynamics
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      08-23-2019, 12:24 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
yup I want to say top complain in the G30 thread is wireless carplay..., follow by no android auto..., follow by lane keep assist not as good as Tesla...
At the moment Tesla is not a concern for any automaker, it will become as time goes one perhaps. Tesla produces 250-300k vehicles annually, BMW produces 2.50 million vehicles annually. Toyota/VW produces 10 million, and Ford F-150 alone sells 1.2-1.5 million. Sales globally are down for all automakers in 2019, US being the heaviest hitter for most OEM's.
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      08-23-2019, 12:26 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
What if the built them like the i3, instead? CF monocoque, LED headlights, CarPlay. Emissions and CO2 reduced by making the car lighter, driving dynamics improved by making the car lighter, etc.
Cost would absolutely go through the roof with this idea.
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