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Originally Posted by snareman

I never claimed they didn't or wouldn't sell well. It's just not the design I'd have preferred or that I fell in love with BMW for.

Exactly. Change is fine, but - maybe make it nicely proportioned, or flow? Maybe make it look like a BMW?

iX for example. I guess if you're used to the SUV's you could reason out the headlights as BMW. The short front overhang. So maybe it's not totally like some other brand, now that I'm typing this out. But generally speaking - is there anything to love here? I don't see it. And the funny thing is with my advancing age and income I'm probably the target market.

Apparently the design team thought "nice looking car" and it was confirmed with some marketing studies. But I just don't get it. I'd always thought these wouldn't be mutually exclusive groups, but maybe they are.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by snareman

People here say, "You want BMW to remain stagnant with their designs?" as if those that like the classic kidneys are clearly wrong. There is something about BMW's design that got us all interested in the first place, likely in the days (2 years ago) of still old school kidneys. Sure the shape of them has evolved some over the years from the baby grills in the early 2000's to the larger more recent 3/4 series (pre-2021). I'm of the camp that if it's not broken, don't revolutionize it. I'm not anti the new grilles per se (see my sig - I bought one of the new M4), but it's not the design I'd have chosen.

Remember some of the designs are new interpretations of much older designs within the BMW heritage.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by snareman

I never claimed they didn't or wouldn't sell well. It's just not the design I'd have preferred or that I fell in love with BMW for.

So you fell in love with a grille style and not a brand. Got it. Pretty common around here.

To me thats like being a huge New York Giants fan but changing your mind about them because they changed the logo on their helmets from GIANTS to NY.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Patton250

So you fell in love with a grille style and not a brand. Got it. Pretty common around here.

To me thats like being a huge New York Giants fan but changing your mind about them because they changed the logo on their helmets from GIANTS to NY.

The brand is sum total of many things, but the grille style was one of the things that many of us identify as part it.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Remember some of the designs are new interpretations of much older designs within the BMW heritage.

This is more what they should have made as an M if they wanted a modern take on that tradition, perhaps just slightly tamed down.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by snareman

The brand is sum total of many things, but the grille style was one of the things that many of us identify as part it.

I would believe that but basically the car stayed the same with the exception of the front and that seems to be the most concerning factor to many of the diehard traditionalists. They are not complaining about the faster engine and better handling or the laser lights and ventilated seats. They’re not even complaining about the improved suspension. It’s all about the grille. As an outsider myself I have an only owned one BMW and that was an X3. I always thought every BMW looked the same for the last 25 years. At least the front anyway. I thought it was awesome to see them change something. That’s what brought me in. I almost bought the M5 but I like the grille of the M3 better. I still love the M5 also and its grille I just like the new grille more. But remember I am an outsider to BMW so therefore I’m not negatively affected by change. That and of course that when this car is tuned it’s faster than any stock non tuned ICE Porsche. Lol. Let that sink in.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I would believe that but basically the car stayed the same with the exception of the front and that seems to be the most concerning factor to many of the diehard traditionalists. They are not complaining about the faster engine and better handling or the laser lights and ventilated seats. They’re not even complaining about the improved suspension. It’s all about the grille. As an outsider myself I have an only owned one BMW and that was an X3. I always thought every BMW looked the same for the last 25 years. At least the front anyway. I thought it was awesome to see them change something. That’s what brought me in. I almost bought the M5 but I like the grille of the M3 better. I still love the M5 also and its grille I just like the new grille more. But remember I am an outsider to BMW so therefore I’m not negatively affected by change. That and of course that when this car is tuned it’s faster than any stock non tuned ICE Porsche. Lol. Let that sink in.

Except that the entire car changed. The interior is night and day different and a vast improvement in both styling and of course tech. Getting into an F82 interior almost feels like stepping back into the 70's in comparison. The sides and rear are different. Angel eyes gone. Hoffmeister gone. Svelte M mirrors gone. I'm not a stalwart on that those, but they were styling cues that BMW enthusiasts and some general public knew the brand for. Although BMW has clearly shifted their focus away from enthusiasts to gain broader sales which I can't fault them for since they are in the business to make money. And, as I've said, I'm not anti the grilles per se (remember I did buy the car), they just aren't what I'd have chosen for the design. They do look much better in person than in pictures. As I mentioned, there are design features about a brand that draw people to it. Everyone else was going to giant grilles (don't get me started on that Lexus cow catcher monstrosity) and I was happy that BMW was resisting the large grille group think, until they weren't. I'm glad it's bringing people to the brand and that it's working out for them with sales, and I get that designs are going to change, but obviously not all change is necessary for the better in everyone's eyes. I guess that's why we have choices.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by snareman

Except that the entire car changed. The interior is night and day different and a vast improvement in both styling and of course tech. Getting into an F82 interior almost feels like stepping back into the 70's in comparison. The sides and rear are different. Angel eyes gone. Hoffmeister gone. Svelte M mirrors gone. I'm not a stalwart on that those, but they were styling cues that BMW enthusiasts and some general public knew the brand for. Although BMW has clearly shifted their focus away from enthusiasts to gain broader sales which I can't fault them for since they are in the business to make money. And, as I've said, I'm not anti the grilles per se (remember I did buy the car), they just aren't what I'd have chosen for the design. They do look much better in person than in pictures. As I mentioned, there are design features about a brand that draw people to it. Everyone else was going to giant grilles (don't get me started on that Lexus cow catcher monstrosity) and I was happy that BMW was resisting the large grille group think, until they weren't. I'm glad it's bringing people to the brand and that it's working out for them with sales, and I get that designs are going to change, but obviously not all change is necessary for the better in everyone's eyes. I guess that's why we have choices.

Thank you for the discourse. I really like everything you said. I appreciate your view on this as well.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Thank you for the discourse. I really like everything you said. I appreciate your view on this as well.

Good chatting with you as well.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I would believe that but basically the car stayed the same with the exception of the front and that seems to be the most concerning factor to many of the diehard traditionalists. They are not complaining about the faster engine and better handling or the laser lights and ventilated seats. They’re not even complaining about the improved suspension. It’s all about the grille. As an outsider myself I have an only owned one BMW and that was an X3. I always thought every BMW looked the same for the last 25 years. At least the front anyway. I thought it was awesome to see them change something. That’s what brought me in. I almost bought the M5 but I like the grille of the M3 better. I still love the M5 also and its grille I just like the new grille more. But remember I am an outsider to BMW so therefore I’m not negatively affected by change. That and of course that when this car is tuned it’s faster than any stock non tuned ICE Porsche. Lol. Let that sink in.

You can't cry people's focus "it's all about the grille" when BMW made it so by making it the gigantic center of the face. That's like a woman having augmentation surgery from 34B to 34DDD and then complaining y'all only comment on her breasts!

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

You can't cry people's focus "it's all about the grille" when BMW made it so by making it the gigantic center of the face. That's like a woman having augmentation surgery from 34B to 34DDD and then complaining y'all only comment on her breasts!

Brother I would bet a significant amount of money, I mean 90% of my wealth that if I could go back in time and put the F80 grille on the G80 but change absolutely nothing else then there would not have been any crying whatsoever from anyone on it. I mean probably a couple of small criticisms here and there but nothing like the outcry we have seen from traditionalists. Of course there's no way to ever prove this but that's how I feel about it.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Patton250

So you fell in love with a grille style and not a brand. Got it. Pretty common around here.

To me thats like being a huge New York Giants fan but changing your mind about them because they changed the logo on their helmets from GIANTS to NY.

One follows a sports team for personal reasons: because it is one's hometown team; because it has a player one likes; etc. Most of us don't follow a vehicle manufacturer in the same way. So if a design no longer suits a customer, the customer should look elsewhere. Customers don't owe loyalty to a manufacturer; the manufacturer should owe loyalty to its best customers.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

One follows a sports team for personal reasons: because it is one's hometown team; because it has a player one likes; etc. Most of us don't follow a vehicle manufacturer in the same way. So if a design no longer suits a customer, the customer should look elsewhere. Customers don't owe loyalty to a manufacturer; the manufacturer should owe loyalty to its best customers.

I completely agree with you 100%. However obviously all the people that have been complaining and saying BMW is stupid have been completely wrong. At least going by Sales I mean. They were catastrophically wrong. At this point in time you have to admit it's kind of funny.

[james11]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Seems BMW made the right decision going with the new design. Traditionalists tend to slow progress. BMW M is nowhere near as exclusive as Porsche so they can’t afford to have traditionalist dictate design change. The sales numbers prove that.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/01/13/b...rd-sales-2021/

Design itself is hardly single factor behind buying decision. BMWs have many pros, which in this case outweight poor design. We will never know what would happen if they would try evolutionary appraoch. Yes, it grows on people, but it's not 'wow' car.
Simply speaking It's not a marriage out of love, but practicality.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by james11

Design itself is hardly single factor behind buying decision. BMWs have many pros, which in this case outweight poor design. We will never know what would happen if they would try evolutionary appraoch. Yes, it grows on people, but it's not 'wow' car.
Simply speaking It's not a marriage out of love, but practicality.

Yeah man. That's what most people do. They go to a car lot and say, " Holy crap that car is ugly let's buy it"

And that's how sales records are broken

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Yeah man. That's what most people do. They go to a car lot and say, " Holy crap that car is ugly let's buy it"

And that's how sales records are broken

To be fair, BMW no matter how ugly it is to many, the people at M and their generic car engineers still knows how to build genuinely good cars including the new M3/M4, free of the designer's BS. Let's also not forget, no matter the looks, BMW still is highly desired because BMW, its that simple. (FYI, I am not so much a grille hater, but their indecision hater, they literally are going 100 different direction across their range, IF it is what Dukec thinks will work, then please have the balls to do so across the entire range, i'd probably at least respect him for sticking to his guns)

And mostly the sales records are driven by the pedestrian X5 and X3, neither of which have the controversial design elements, designed BEFORE Dukec's time and by Anders Thøgersen and Calvin Luk respectively, and are not as sales driven by divisive enthusiasts. Lumping the pignose design as the only reason sales records have been broken is just scratching the surface.

[james11]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Yeah man. That's what most people do. They go to a car lot and say, " Holy crap that car is ugly let's buy it"

And that's how sales records are broken

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
But seriously, it's not single decision factor. You don't see this face when you're driving

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by kyriian

To be fair, BMW no matter how ugly it is to many (FYI, I am not so much a grille hater, but their indecision hater, they literally are going 10 different direction across their range), one of them is that the people at M and their car engineers still knows how to build genuinely good cars, free of the designer's BS.

And mostly the sales records are from the pedestrian X5 and X3, neither of which are controversial at all.

Your post is reasonable. I don’t know why I keep falling into these things it just drives me crazy. We have a percentage of traditionalist here that love BMW genuinely and have been following M cars since their inception. They think because instead of BMW taking a 10% design change they took a 40% design change that everyone is unhappy about it because they are. They are wrong. Sales prove that. I’m tired of people saying the car is ugly when what they really mean is in their opinion BMW went overboard as far as how much they changed it from the last generation. People don’t give a crap and that’s obvious by how many are selling. People don’t buy things they think are ugly. Ever. Never ever ever. I’m embarrassed that anyone would even make a statement like that. Don’t get me wrong I’m sure there are some BMW shops whose owners are traditionalists that don’t like the new design but are buying it so they can make aftermarket parts for it. That’s not what I’m talking about. You can tell from this very forum that everyone who has bought it loves it. They love the way it drives and they love the way it looks. This conversation is kind of silly at this point and I feel like an idiot for participating in it.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Your post is reasonable. I don’t know why I keep falling into these things it just drives me crazy. We have a percentage of traditionalist here that love BMW genuinely and have been following M cars since their inception. They think because instead of BMW taking a 10% design change they took a 40% design change that everyone is unhappy about it because they are. They are wrong. Sales prove that. I’m tired of people saying the car is ugly when what they really mean is in their opinion BMW went overboard as far as how much they changed it from the last generation. People don’t give a crap and that’s obvious by how many are selling. People don’t buy things they think are ugly. Ever. Never ever ever. I’m embarrassed that anyone would even make a statement like that. Don’t get me wrong I’m sure there are some BMW shops whose owners are traditionalists that don’t like the new design but are buying it so they can make aftermarket parts for it. That’s not what I’m talking about. You can tell from this very forum that everyone who has bought it loves it. They love the way it drives and they love the way it looks. This conversation is kind of silly at this point and I feel like an idiot for participating in it.

I think that's what they are saying. People are complaining that BMW went overboard with change from the last generation and designed a car that they don't find attractive. I suppose they could have gone overboard and designed a car that everyone liked, but they apparently didn't as evidenced by this thread. I know, you can't please everyone...

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by snareman

I think that's what they are saying. People are complaining that BMW went overboard with change from the last generation and designed a car that they don't find attractive. I suppose they could have gone overboard and designed a car that everyone liked, but they apparently didn't as evidenced by this thread. I know, you can't please everyone...

If it had looked like it’s predecessor I wouldn’t of bought it. Two friends of mine who bought the G80 wouldn’t of bought it either. So there’s that. Besides not finding attractive and being upset about a massive change are two different things. The only people that say the car is not attractive are those who upset about it being changed. This is why this whole thing has become absurd to me. Find one person out there that has no dog in this hunt i.e. they don’t give two craps about BMW and ask him what they think of the car they will say it’s bad ass looking. Every single one of them will say that. Ask other car enthusiast that don’t give a crap about BMW what they think and they say it looks bad ass also. The only people that don’t like it I don’t want to upset that it doesn’t have the same grille is it sad for 30 years. It really is that simple.

Still though I think it would be hilarious if like all the people who are upset voted for representative to go to Germany and tell the design engineers how dumb they are. It would be hilarious to watch that design engineer pull out the sales figures and show the representative. What an embarrassing moment that would be. There was a great commercial during the Super Bowl where this guy all throughout time is telling inventors of products that eventually kicked ass that their ideas were stupid. This new M3 design is one of those moments.

Here is the commercial right here. It’s actually the very first one. That dude is the representative for all the new G80 haters. they had some great commercials this year. Enjoy.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Cant buy good taste

[RM7]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

See attached. The design drawing looks modern, fresh and aggressive. Instead the final result was a flat front fascia that lacks any presence.

And FFS, stop drawing 25" wheels with 2mm of suspension travel on these concept cars. It just looks ridiculous.