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      01-25-2022, 01:22 PM   #23
ipso_facto
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Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
See my issue is leaving without feeling guilt, abandonment, so on. So the few times I was able to leave, she kept texting calling, in a non adversarial fashion, I love you and I need you and so on. Each time I felt guilty and came back.

I need to resolve my own issues.

Restraining order is out of the question unfortunately in this circumstance. Her actions are non adversarial, just manipulative and I cannot bring myself to take a step of this magnitude towards a person I love or that I am not adversarial with. Just not made that way.
You are still being controlled and manipulated, albeit the fact it is not an iron fist holding you back, rather one that is clad in silk.

Does your wife have a close family and / or friends she can turn to? The reason I ask, is because it sounds like she is dependent on you, beyond the remit of a normal marital relationship.
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      01-25-2022, 01:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
Thanks for the feedback gents (and ladies?). This is a very complex situation that spans 11 years of relationship time and includes, cultural, religious, reproductive issues that would make the heads of the people of this forum explode.

I have not found the advise of psychologists effective so far, so was hoping to find a professional by reference or directly on this forum. I am looking to delve into WHY I think the way I think, the only responses I get are "oh this is very hard for you". No real questions asked, no attempts made to discover or explore things like guilt, dependency and so on.

The long and the short of it is, we have been in the process of divorce for 2 years (impacted by Covid), we are not using attorneys, have executed a separation agreement (no arguing over assets). Nevertheless, my wife refuses to allow me to leave (including physically holding me, flying to where I am, sending me thousands of texts a day with different numbers), despite my many failures in the relationship, and my refusal to adopt her religion, give her children and so on. Divorce is wrong to her on a religious basis. On her part, her significant failures have not been enough for me to leave. Time is running out, either I file the remaining paperwork or the court tosses my action.

We are both content (not super happy) and very financially secure. We are friends. And maybe that's enough. She still loves me and is in love with me. I love her more as a friend. We both deserve better.

We're both still here.
Do you know why divorce is so expensive?

Because it's worth it.
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      01-25-2022, 01:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rebekahb View Post
Whew, there's a lot to unpack here. You are sacrificing your happiness to keep her sanity in check. You've been in a relationship for a long time and from what you've written it seems like you're a pretty compassionate guy. She sees and knows that and is using that to manipulate you into staying. With you being caring and compassionate you are going to feel guilt especially with the way she acts when/if you leave. You would have to put your big boy pants on and grow a vagina (they are stronger than balls). Obviously, that's been a struggle if this is spanning 2 years. Life is to short to stay because it's easy. Hard things in life give us growth. Staying stuck is always easier.
That's what the people closest to me are saying as well. However, there is another dimension to all of this. I have an injury that has sadly impacts my executive reasoning and memory and thereby capped my ability to perform at work, every day, I have to work 10x as hard as others for where I am. I have a great job, leadership opportunities, excellent compensation, but I know I'm tapped. Every day I have crippling anxiety about being laid off, having enough to retire and so forth.
Together my wife and I are much more financially secure than apart, though neither of us has any debt, just fewer assets if we divorce.
In short, there is an element to this marriage being one of convenience, in the sense that it greatly alleviates my stress about the future.
Also having said that, yes I am compassionate and introspective, but she and I have both done what I think is irreparable damage, in addition to the differences about kids and religion.

Believe me you would not perceive me as well as you do if you understood the magnitudes of my failures, really being one failure over and over that most people would not forgive, and that I myself did not in the past. I've even told my wife we should split up on that basis alone, but she remains steadfast.

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Originally Posted by cmyx6go View Post
You have to go. Don't stay because you feel guilty. You have a right to be happy. I made that mistake long ago and stayed with my husband WAY to long because I felt bad for him. I basically put him before me. When I finally did leave, it got ugly - he made it ugly. You need to come first. Plus, you're doing it the right way. You should not feel guilty for being straight with her.

Good luck to you.
Right now, my wife cooks, cleans, works, does everything. But we are at a point where I think the collective damage that has been done is beyond reversal.
I feel there is something missing. Content is the perfect word, I'll be OK. But I did see life outside this marriage in the past 2 years and I was excited by what I saw.

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Originally Posted by cmyx6go View Post
The women have spoken.
Indeed.
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      01-25-2022, 01:37 PM   #26
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^^^^ What he said. Life is short. "My wife refuses to allow me to leave" is not a good basis for a successful relationship.
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      01-25-2022, 01:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipso_facto View Post
You are still being controlled and manipulated, albeit the fact it is not an iron fist holding you back, rather one that is clad in silk.

Does your wife have a close family and / or friends she can turn to? The reason I ask, is because it sounds like she is dependent on you, beyond the remit of a normal marital relationship.
One of our biggest issues. Her parents are strong Christians. Their only advice is God will help, we will pray.
She is introverted. Doesn't speak to anyone but her parents.
I've tried talking to her parents. It all goes back to God.
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      01-25-2022, 01:51 PM   #28
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No kids man, this is easy I hate to say it.
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      01-25-2022, 01:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
Every day I have crippling anxiety about being laid off, having enough to retire and so forth.
Together my wife and I are much more financially secure than apart, though neither of us has any debt, just fewer assets if we divorce.
In short, there is an element to this marriage being one of convenience, in the sense that it greatly alleviates my stress about the future.
I hear ya.
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      01-25-2022, 02:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
One of our biggest issues. Her parents are strong Christians. Their only advice is God will help, we will pray.
She is introverted. Doesn't speak to anyone but her parents.
I've tried talking to her parents. It all goes back to God.
I understand .. the “God will help” mantra does not provide any substantive assistance - to either of you.

Do you think counselling will genuinely help your relationship, or do you think it is a stalling tactic (subliminally or openly)?

Also, is there any way that your wife can make some friends - through her church or another Christian group, locally?

The reason I ask this, is because it would benefit her and you, that she could be influenced by another view point. That is one of the roles of having and being a friend, right? It sounds like she has an incredibly unusual level of introversion and dependence, on yourself and her parents. With the greatest respect, it sounds like you are a mental and emotional crutch to her.

In order to bring the relationship to an end, she has to be shown an alternative. Currently, it seems that the ending of your marriage is an abyss, from your wife’s perspective. Thus, she needs to picture a fulfilling and meaningful future, to help her feel secure.
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      01-25-2022, 03:12 PM   #31
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The relationship is done. Period. You don't need relationship/marital counseling.

You need counseling for YOU. Your own insecurity is the only reason this is going on 2 years later. I'm not sure what you mean about needing to file more paperwork or the court will throw it out. When my ex-wife asked for a divorce, I moved out in less than 3 weeks.

If you file for divorce and the other party refuses to sign/acknowledge the paperwork, you can bring an affidavit to the court showing they were served and refused, you can proceed with the divorce.

Is it safe to say the reason you don't know this is because you haven't filed for divorce?
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      01-25-2022, 03:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipso_facto View Post
I understand .. the “God will help” mantra does not provide any substantive assistance - to either of you.

Do you think counselling will genuinely help your relationship, or do you think it is a stalling tactic (subliminally or openly)?

Also, is there any way that your wife can make some friends - through her church or another Christian group, locally?

The reason I ask this, is because it would benefit her and you, that she could be influenced by another view point. That is one of the roles of having and being a friend, right? It sounds like she has an incredibly unusual level of introversion and dependence, on yourself and her parents. With the greatest respect, it sounds like you are a mental and emotional crutch to her.

In order to bring the relationship to an end, she has to be shown an alternative. Currently, it seems that the ending of your marriage is an abyss, from your wife’s perspective. Thus, she needs to picture a fulfilling and meaningful future, to help her feel secure.
We did try to go through a Christian counselor too. The feedback was practical rather than faith-based, e.g. if you are not able to decide what to do by a date certain, split. She no longer wants to see counselors, because she's looking for a singular response "divorce is wrong". So my attempts to do what you're saying have failed miserably.

In her culture as well, sharing intimate details with anyone outside the family (her and me), even parents, is shameful. I know she's shared both of our failures with her mom and no response. This Christmas I made it a point to discuss the matter of children with her mom and how much it hurts her not to have them, and she basically said, if God wants you to have children, you will. My wife just said she will repress her innate desires for children, but I think it's a recipe for resent down the road.

She's very shy and has emotional issues (the biggest reason for divorce for me), so it would be hard for her to find someone who would be patient enough to deal with them. I enabled the behavior by forgiving every outburst but it wore on me over time. So I feel guilty leaving, seeing her crying holding onto me, running after the car, seeing thousands of texts a day, newly created phone numbers to replace blocked ones.
Worst thing is like I said, she does not see that she also deserves better, she deserves to have a Christian man, a man who wants children, and so on. But she clings to me. I was her first BF.
It's all very tragic. I know last year if she left me be, I'd be divorced, despite my concerns about stability.
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      01-25-2022, 03:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
The relationship is done. Period. You don't need relationship/marital counseling.

You need counseling for YOU. Your own insecurity is the only reason this is going on 2 years later. I'm not sure what you mean about needing to file more paperwork or the court will throw it out. When my ex-wife asked for a divorce, I moved out in less than 3 weeks.

If you file for divorce and the other party refuses to sign/acknowledge the paperwork, you can bring an affidavit to the court showing they were served and refused, you can proceed with the divorce.

Is it safe to say the reason you don't know this is because you haven't filed for divorce?
I filed, some forms were not filed correctly. In order for the court to finalize the uncontested divorce paperwork, they need those forms to be filed. The court has granted continuances, and now I'm at the shit or get off the pot phase. Indeed, my wife refuses to sign anything else, so yes, I will have to have her served and that will resolve the issue.
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      01-25-2022, 03:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
We did try to go through a Christian counselor too. The feedback was practical rather than faith-based, e.g. if you are not able to decide what to do by a date certain, split. She no longer wants to see counselors, because she's looking for a singular response "divorce is wrong". So my attempts to do what you're saying have failed miserably.

In her culture as well, sharing intimate details with anyone outside the family (her and me), even parents, is shameful. I know she's shared both of our failures with her mom and no response. This Christmas I made it a point to discuss the matter of children with her mom and how much it hurts her not to have them, and she basically said, if God wants you to have children, you will. My wife just said she will repress her innate desires for children, but I think it's a recipe for resent down the road.

She's very shy and has emotional issues (the biggest reason for divorce for me), so it would be hard for her to find someone who would be patient enough to deal with them. I enabled the behavior by forgiving every outburst but it wore on me over time. So I feel guilty leaving, seeing her crying holding onto me, running after the car, seeing thousands of texts a day, newly created phone numbers to replace blocked ones.
Worst thing is like I said, she does not see that she also deserves better, she deserves to have a Christian man, a man who wants children, and so on. But she clings to me. I was her first BF.
It's all very tragic. I know last year if she left me be, I'd be divorced, despite my concerns about stability.
I'm a Christian and hate to see anyone get divorced too, so don't really know what to tell you. I kind of get why your wife wants to make it work, sounds like you are not a Christian, and perhaps also you may have cheated on her in the past, but sounds like in general, you regret past mistakes and have a kind heart which is what is tying you in.

I don't know - I don't think her refusal to divorce is really based on Christian faith though. The Bible permits divorce and remarriage in very few scenarios, but certainly suggests it is better to remain married if both parties agree...but gives permission in few circumstances if X happens and the one party wants to be divorced and remarry.

I think there are only 3 scenarios, and one of those I forget, but the ones that do come to mind are:
1. Sexual unfaithfulness is permission to divorce the unfaithful party and remarry
2. Being married to a non-Christian where the non-Christian cannot live with the Christian spouse any more (but if they can, they should) - that is permission to divorce and remarry.

And I'd think by the sounds of it, you meet criteria #2, so should give her more or less free reign to not feel bad about it - she did the best she could. And free to find someone else.

So I suspect this goes not to her faith, but to her character and general insecurities. Of which, you aren't going to change. She sounds like a good woman in general though?

What is it - not enough sex, not enough compassion, what is it that is the biggest issue you have?
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      01-25-2022, 04:07 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
I filed, some forms were not filed correctly. In order for the court to finalize the uncontested divorce paperwork, they need those forms to be filed. The court has granted continuances, and now I'm at the shit or get off the pot phase. Indeed, my wife refuses to sign anything else, so yes, I will have to have her served and that will resolve the issue.
Fix the paperwork and move on with your life. If you reached the point that you actually filed, it's done and over with. Counseling isn't going to fix it.

Move on and enjoy the rest of your life.

When you find the next good fit, be upfront and honest about yourself and what you expect. For example, if you aren't religious (I'm not) and don't want kids, make sure she knows that going in so she doesn't think she is going to magically change your mind 3 years down the line.
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      01-25-2022, 06:25 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Topcarbon View Post
If my psychiatrist was hanging around car forums and posting about his car I would not be his patient. Cool that he likes cars and we could talk about my addiction on cars but that’s about as far as that goes.

My advise is if you are serious about your request, ask a friend to recommend someone, as I’m sure one has had challenges with their spouse.
Sounds like you may have latent unresolved conflicts. I hear that psychologists who hang around on Bimmerpost are not only the smartest, but they can drive good too.
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      01-25-2022, 07:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Sounds like you may have latent unresolved conflicts. I hear that psychologists who hang around on Bimmerpost are not only the smartest, but they can drive good too.
I definetly have problems when it comes to cars
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      01-28-2022, 01:10 PM   #38
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One word for you: annulment

No the state version, the Christian version.

Not accepting/ actively avoid procreation is one of the criteria.

It's not as easy as filing divorce papers.

I didn't do it myself, after speaking with the priest. I didn't truly meet the criteria of not wanting children, even though my mom said she would (lie?) vouch that I did tell her, BEFORE the marriage.

This gives your wife the ability to save face with her Christian view.


Admittedly, these are my CATHOLIC experiences.
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      01-28-2022, 09:39 PM   #39
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Take it (or don't) from someone happily married (to the same woman!) for over 40-years whose eldest daughter is now a LMFT: This is her problem—not yours. Nice of you to try to share the burden, but it's her problem.

Of course we only have the insight from your perspective . . . but that should be enough!
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      01-29-2022, 09:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 View Post
You are better off getting a divorce than to seek marriage counseling.

Marriage counseling is basically a circle jerk where you as a man are always at fault and need to do better.

Cut your losses and enjoy your newfound freedom from the plantation known as marriage.
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Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 View Post
You are better off getting a divorce than to seek marriage counseling.

Marriage counseling is basically a circle jerk where you as a man are always at fault and need to do better.

Cut your losses and enjoy your newfound freedom from the plantation known as marriage.
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Sounds pizzagatey.
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