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      06-07-2021, 01:05 PM   #243
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It's just 11 pages of NO.
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      06-07-2021, 01:07 PM   #244
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This thread is such a fascinating look into branding and the human psyche.

Just the creation of it was such a brilliant troll job.
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      06-08-2021, 02:42 PM   #245
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Just because my X5 M sport has bigger rubber and more carbon fibre then my M3, it is not an M and should never be referred to as an M…

The M moniker is being sold at outlet stores by BMW for the $$$
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      06-08-2021, 07:01 PM   #246
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Don’t know why but this thread reminds me of this:

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911723
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      06-08-2021, 07:50 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by TheRussski View Post
Don’t know why but this thread reminds me of this:

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911723
Because we wouldn't be human if we didn't rehash stuff from the past and apply our unwanted opinion to it.
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      06-09-2021, 02:19 AM   #248
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So BMW has listened to all those who said M-Performance cars weren't real M cars and...

gave them double-slat kidneys, M badges in the kidnes and M side mirrors!
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      06-09-2021, 08:16 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by mbanck View Post
So BMW has listened to all those who said M-Performance cars weren't real M cars and...

gave them double-slat kidneys, M badges in the kidnes and M side mirrors!
LOL. Let the confusion begin.
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      06-09-2021, 08:19 AM   #250
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      06-09-2021, 10:32 AM   #251
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Next are the big nostrils like the G80.
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      06-19-2021, 02:26 AM   #252
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How do you guys feel about people who take a base car and pour enough money into it to outperform the M version in all aspects?

IE: Fully built E36 (with M3 badge) vs stock E36 M3?
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      06-19-2021, 10:26 PM   #253
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BMW needs to just make the badge say "M Sport"… and that fixes this problem.

Lexus did it, F & F Sport… so people do not get it confused. At the end of the day, NO.
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      06-19-2021, 10:30 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iSUP View Post
How do you guys feel about people who take a base car and pour enough money into it to outperform the M version in all aspects?

IE: Fully built E36 (with M3 badge) vs stock E36 M3?
Then it's considered downbadging
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      06-20-2021, 07:52 AM   #255
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Im going with NO. Unless it has a distinct M-engine. It is not a real M (sorry OG M2).
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      06-20-2021, 09:59 AM   #256
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The M camp must be pooping bricks over the new EV M's....
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      06-20-2021, 11:47 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labfm View Post
I like how everybody assumes going for M 'lite' has to do with affordability. Literally, the only reason I got M240i vs M2 is because M2 couldn't customize the interior (I wanted tan leather).
The assumptions are hilarious based off what people drive. I think on page one someone referred to non-M buyers as "cheapskates." In the diverse world of automobiles, couldn't someone with an M8 Competition be called a cheapskate because he/she didn't buy a Bugatti Chiron Super Sport?
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      06-20-2021, 03:04 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKParris View Post
Im going with NO. Unless it has a distinct M-engine. It is not a real M (sorry OG M2).
Based on this logic, a car that is still considered one the best if not the best M car of all time until just recently, is not even an M car at all.
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      06-20-2021, 10:29 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineBoost View Post
Based on this logic, a car that is still considered one the best if not the best M car of all time until just recently, is not even an M car at all.
You mean the 1M?
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      06-20-2021, 11:11 PM   #260
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Just analyzing the discussion and it is amazing that the E9X M3 guys are the ones with most comments against M badging here. Not people with new M3's or M4's.....nope.....the ones with 10 year old cars - fascinating.

Last edited by alexonahurry; 06-21-2021 at 01:19 AM..
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      06-21-2021, 02:23 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
There are two main audiences for these mods: ourselves and others.


Others:

If we do it for others, then we must admit that it is the attention that it brings that gives that feeling of enjoyment. The attention from those who are unaware of the difference between a M Sport and an M car versus the attention from those who do will be very different. One will be of admiration, the other of contempt. Contempt isn't something we normally aspire to, so it must be the admiration we seek.

Therefore:
  • These mods are meant to gain the admiration of those who lack the knowledge or awareness.
  • By definition, ignorance is defined as lacking knowledge awareness.
  • Therefore these mods are meant the gain the admiration of the ignorant.
  • The argument that "it doesn't matter what others think" in this particular case is nonsense, since the audience is specifically "others".



Ourselves:

If we do it for "ourselves" one could make the argument that we enjoy seeing it when we look at the car, which is a valid argument. But why do we enjoy seeing an M badge? It must be for what it stands for. Again, we can apply the same logic as we did when the audience was "others". If we don't know the difference between an M Sport can an an M car then we might simply be ignorant. If we do know the difference but do it anyway, then we either are willfully ignoring facts, or are trying to fool ourselves. We also might disagree what qualifies a car to be worthy of the M badge.

Therefore:
  • We are ignorant through no fault of our own
  • We choose to be ignorant
  • We want to fool ourselves
  • We disagree with others

In reality though, I think we like to say it's for "ourselves" but then we feel offended when "others" have a negative opinion on it. If it truly was exclusively for "others" then this shouldn't bother us... but it does. Hence 10 pages of discussion and tying to plead our cases to others. Realistically, it probably a little bit of both, we just don't care to admit it, especially when one audience is giving more negative feedback than another. Our sense of pride pushes us towards the path of lease resistance, which is just human nature. We can further narrow our audience from "(all)others" to "select others" ie those who are like-minded, but that would simply be living in an echo chamber of self approval wouldn't it? There is little actual achievement in getting the approval of those who already think like us. I think we secretly crave the approval of others. When we get approval, it matters, but when we get disapproval, then "it doesn't matter what other people think". It's very convenient in the protection of our feelings. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm guilty of it to, but that's how we mature as people. The sooner we admit how flawed we are, the better we are as people relating to other people.

So in the end, get an M badge, don't get an M badge, it really is up to the individual, but here's what other people, including myself, have gone through in our journey through self expression through our vehicles. We've all been there, learn from what we have learned through our own mistakes and journey from ignorance.
Very well put together analysis. Here is a copy-paste of a previous posting of mine where I interpret M Sport as, yes, being a 'real M car' today.

It is in the normal order of things that features from the higher-end M vehicles eventually make their way down to the lesser ones, with M Motorsport actual racecars standing at the top end of the spectrum and M Sport production trim at the lower end. As previously released features are trickling down the ladder, all-new features keep being released higher up to feed the continuous improvement cycle. Hence why M mirrors, M grille, M hood with power dome, M carbon roof, M spoiler, M safety belts... either already have or eventually will make their way to lower-tier models. This cascading down of M features doesn't seem problematic per se as long as the hardcore M models higher up the ladder keep in turn gaining new race-derived features that keep them unmistakably sportier and more desirable than the lower-end versions (better aero, more carbon standard, lighter wheels with centerlock nuts, sportier seats, more alcantara, more M stitching, more red details, larger paddle shifters...?).

Having said that, I do agree that this X3/X4 refresh is perhaps demoting too many M features at a time (M double-slat grille, M grille badge, M color steering wheel...). But BMW is obviously keen on making its M lineup look like a continuum / color gradient / steady stairway, rather than a binary step function with 'real M models' on one side and 'fake M models' on the other: all M-branded models are the same breed, they just get more purebred the higher you go up the ladder (can't find that chart right now, but it's interesting they are now labeling the base M models 'M High Performance' as if to round off the angles and better relate to the 'M Performance' models, just like Competition already relates to CS and CSL):

M Motorsport
M CSL
M CS
M Competition
M High Performance
M Performance
M Sport

XXXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXX
XXX
XX
X

Last edited by advantage20; 06-21-2021 at 02:29 AM..
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      06-21-2021, 02:58 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
There are two main audiences for these mods: ourselves and others.


Others:

If we do it for others, then we must admit that it is the attention that it brings that gives that feeling of enjoyment. The attention from those who are unaware of the difference between a M Sport and an M car versus the attention from those who do will be very different. One will be of admiration, the other of contempt. Contempt isn't something we normally aspire to, so it must be the admiration we seek.

Therefore:
  • These mods are meant to gain the admiration of those who lack the knowledge or awareness.
  • By definition, ignorance is defined as lacking knowledge awareness.
  • Therefore these mods are meant the gain the admiration of the ignorant.
  • The argument that "it doesn't matter what others think" in this particular case is nonsense, since the audience is specifically "others".



Ourselves:

If we do it for "ourselves" one could make the argument that we enjoy seeing it when we look at the car, which is a valid argument. But why do we enjoy seeing an M badge? It must be for what it stands for. Again, we can apply the same logic as we did when the audience was "others". If we don't know the difference between an M Sport can an an M car then we might simply be ignorant. If we do know the difference but do it anyway, then we either are willfully ignoring facts, or are trying to fool ourselves. We also might disagree what qualifies a car to be worthy of the M badge.

Therefore:
  • We are ignorant through no fault of our own
  • We choose to be ignorant
  • We want to fool ourselves
  • We disagree with others

In reality though, I think we like to say it's for "ourselves" but then we feel offended when "others" have a negative opinion on it. If it truly was exclusively for "others" then this shouldn't bother us... but it does. Hence 10 pages of discussion and tying to plead our cases to others. Realistically, it probably a little bit of both, we just don't care to admit it, especially when one audience is giving more negative feedback than another. Our sense of pride pushes us towards the path of lease resistance, which is just human nature. We can further narrow our audience from "(all)others" to "select others" ie those who are like-minded, but that would simply be living in an echo chamber of self approval wouldn't it? There is little actual achievement in getting the approval of those who already think like us. I think we secretly crave the approval of others. When we get approval, it matters, but when we get disapproval, then "it doesn't matter what other people think". It's very convenient in the protection of our feelings. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm guilty of it to, but that's how we mature as people. The sooner we admit how flawed we are, the better we are as people relating to other people.

So in the end, get an M badge, don't get an M badge, it really is up to the individual, but here's what other people, including myself, have gone through in our journey through self expression through our vehicles. We've all been there, learn from what we have learned through our own mistakes and journey from ignorance.
Very well put together analysis. Here is a copy-paste of a previous posting of mine where I interpret M Sport as, yes, being a 'real M car' today.

It is in the normal order of things that features from the higher-end M vehicles eventually make their way down to the lesser ones, with M Motorsport actual racecars standing at the top end of the spectrum and M Sport production trim at the lower end. As previously released features are trickling down the ladder, all-new features keep being released higher up to feed the continuous improvement cycle. Hence why M mirrors, M grille, M hood with power dome, M carbon roof, M spoiler, M safety belts... either already have or eventually will make their way to lower-tier models. This cascading down of M features doesn't seem problematic per se as long as the hardcore M models higher up the ladder keep in turn gaining new race-derived features that keep them unmistakably sportier and more desirable than the lower-end versions (better aero, more carbon standard, lighter wheels with centerlock nuts, sportier seats, more alcantara, more M stitching, more red details, larger paddle shifters...?).

Having said that, I do agree that this X3/X4 refresh is perhaps demoting too many M features at a time (M double-slat grille, M grille badge, M color steering wheel...). But BMW is obviously keen on making its M lineup look like a continuum / color gradient / steady stairway, rather than a binary step function with 'real M models' on one side and 'fake M models' on the other: all M-branded models are the same breed, they just get more purebred the higher you go up the ladder (can't find that chart right now, but it's interesting they are now labeling the base M models 'M High Performance' as if to round off the angles and better relate to the 'M Performance' models, just like Competition already relates to CS and CSL):

[COLOR="Red"]M[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]M[/COLOR]otorsport
M [COLOR="Blue"]C[/COLOR]SL
M [COLOR="Blue"]C[/COLOR]S
M [COLOR="Blue"]C[/COLOR]ompetition
M High [COLOR="deepskyblue"]Performance[/COLOR]
M [COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Performance[/COLOR]
M Sport

XXXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXX
XXX
XX
X
Interesting analysis. There is some merit to what you are saying, but at what point does Kool-aid not qualify as Kool-aid as you add water? If you add a teaspoon of Kool-Aid to a swimming pool, can you honestly call it a pool of Kool-Aid? I think you call it a pool with a teaspoon of Kool-Aid in it.

Point being, there certainly is a spectrum in the M lineup, but the spectrum you described is by definition a dilution table. Dilution is what many people have a problem with. How diluted can we get for the sake of marketing? Why call an M Sport an M car other than for marketing? It is literally a dilution of the label. A teaspoon of M in a pool of passenger cars.
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      06-21-2021, 03:30 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Interesting analysis. There is some merit to what you are saying, but at what point does Kool-aid not qualify as Kool-aid as you add water? If you add a teaspoon of Kool-Aid to a swimming pool, can you honestly call it a pool of Kool-Aid? I think you call it a pool with a teaspoon of Kool-Aid in it.

Point being, there certainly is a spectrum in the M lineup, but the spectrum you described is by definition a dilution table. Dilution is what many people have a problem with. How diluted can we get for the sake of marketing? Why call an M Sport an M car other than for marketing? It is literally a dilution of the label. A teaspoon of M in a pool of passenger cars.
Well by that same token, hardcore production M cars aren't exactly pure M vehicles either since they are still quite far from M Motorsport racecars which stand for the purest M ethos.

The point is, is there is no more magical threshold above which a non-M car suddenly becomes an M car. That threshold may have existed in the past and may have been defined by a very bespoke engine + chassis, but that era is long gone and isn't economically sustainable anymore: BMW has one well-established sporty label, and it would be dumb to only apply it to a very tiny amount of purebred vehicles and to only reserve certain features to them (e.g. M adaptive suspension, M differential, M spoiler...) when the BMW lineup has so many other models with sporty credentials which have oftentimes become benchmark vs their competition thanks to these M features (is it a bad thing?).

And as you are implying by 'dilution of the label', owning an M vehicle not only stands for special hardware but for a pedigree, a brand universe with an identifiable flavor and an important visual/esthetic component (which shouldn't matter that much to purists if they only saw M as a special driving experience, but it does). A brand universe which would have remained widely unseen in the streets and widely unappreciated had this label only been reserved to the hardcore models. Of course ideally M Sport wouldn't seem like it just usurps the pedigree by emulating the esthetic component, and would actually perform on the road (but then it needs more hardware from above, e.g. M differential, and then too purists would still complain).

Obviously there is a huge gap between an M Sport 2er Active Tourer minivan and an M2 CS (the flaws of a numerically limited nomenclature...); but again, if BMW delivers by adding new race-derived features on the hardcore M models higher up the ladder, maintaining them sensibly sportier both visually and on the road, then dilution of the label itself won't really be an arguable issue.

Last edited by advantage20; 06-23-2021 at 01:00 PM..
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      07-10-2021, 01:17 AM   #264
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Just no.
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