[IndotagSwizz]

Originally Posted by David70

No chance anyone at BMW would state any of the above (unlike the flip flop manufacturer and running in them), and yes they have whole departments dedicated to making them reliable.

My daily is now not a BMW partially because of reliability and my plan to keep it until 150k miles. Not the only reason to buy a car but anything that adds cost and irritation to the experience is something I considered. I would be interested in buying a used Ferrari (less than $100k) if the reliability, maintenance, repair weren't so crazy expensive and the "it wasn't built to be reliable", doesn't change my outlook on owning one.

I don't think you understood my point, I've had Hondas all my life because that's what most of my life I was able to afford. Eventually I was able to afford an entry level BMW for slightly more than the Honda Accord I would usually get. When I decided to make that decision I made it with the intention of trading the reliability of Honda for BMW's driving experience and road presence, at no time I thought that because it was a BMW it would be more reliable, I knew the Honda will always be more reliable but I wanted a different experience and performance so that's why I went with BMW. That's why I think the article is stupid, because I believe most people out there that buy a BMW have a similar thought process therefore if anybody is buying BMW thinking they will be more reliable is their fault for not doing their homework before buying the car. Again is like buying a pair of flip flops and complaining that the only time you can actually wear them is mostly on beaches but outside of that they barely perform and at the gym they flat out fail miserably...

[Outlaw 06]

Every engineering design out there has cost vs. durability trade-offs. Based on my experience, BMW's newer aluminum block engines with turbochargers spinning at 100,000+ rpm are much more problematic (with high operating temperatures, leaking seals, blown gaskets, warped cylinder heads, etc.) than BMW's older iron block, naturally aspirated engines.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by abeardo83

All cobblers - I've owned a prefacelift and post facelift S2000.
Honda state 1000miles / litre of oil useage is perfectly fine too, so it's not just BMW.

I've seen a fair few stock S2000's that have had blown engines (I've helped replace two for two friends... so that's 2 S2k's out of 9 (so translating to a 22% fail rate).

Honda changed that valve retainers in the facelift because earlier ones failed with use. The cars themselves have issues - blown shock absorbers, siezed alignment bolts, catalytic converters that fall apart, crappy imobilizers and alarms, prematurely wearing CV cups... do I really need to continue??

ALL car companies end up having faults with their stuff - that's called engineering.

Personally, I have no idea where this myth of German reliability came from... WW
showed that German equipment whilst being advanced, was horribly unreliable (2days to replace a Panther gearbox anyone??). Tell you what though, I wouldn't swap my 335i for another S2000...

No offense, but if you actually knew so much information on S2000s, you would also know that earlier valve retainers only failed with money shifts like 100% of all other cars. Revised retainers were designed to take money shift with no issues and allowed engine to rev to 11k. I haven't read or heard and I am 99% positive that not a single S2k engine failed in stock form without user error. If you go to S2k forums, techs will tell you the same thing.

I've had 7 Japs in family since 1994, many close and past 200k miles. To this day I remember ALL maintenance on all 7 cars because the list is so small. The list is about as big as my M3 with 40k miles....*sarcastic* alittle

I actually swapped my 335i for S2000.....no comparison here, with S2000 being miles ahead in everything but luxury feel. If anything, I can compare it to M3, but more solid build. Read Porsche forums, alot of guys have both for a reason a Cayman S and S2k. I don't even track cars, but to each his own....S2000 felt to me like the Car with a big C.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by NeoGeo

I'm a Honda fanboy myself, but i dont believe for a second that Hondas are any more relable than BMWs. For every horror story I hear about BMWs I hear one for Honda.

Point in case:

https://hondaquality.wordpress.com/h...ows-otherwise/

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/auto...da-accord.html

What about the transmission issue with the new crop of Acura sedans?

Flip side, I know lots of people that own e92 m3s and have never even heard of the rod bearing issue because they don't feequent internet forums.

It's the internet, of course you are going to hear people complaining. What did you expect?

An engineer's perspective: when you push the limits of technology you should expect reliability issues. If we extend model cycles reliability numbers will increase, but then the forums will be full of posts bitching about the fact that it takes BMW eons to release a new car that is not simply a repeat of the last generation.

Yes, some select Japanese car models are (Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Volvo too) notorious for tranny issues partialy due to fluid never replaced maybe. Some 328s have tranny issues as well by the way.

I am not a fan boy, I don't think I am....

As far as engineering goes. I would like to know where is the engineering behind HPFP failing since 2007? Where is the engineering behind plastic water pump that fail around 40-50k miles? Where is the engineering behind rod bearings in M cars, they been failing since 2001? Porsche IMS? Porsche and BMW seals that start to leak right after warranty? I am sorry but thats not engineering, thats bullshit.

Edit: also a note here.....when I buy a Japanese car I know what to expect and I know what can fail, with Germans I never do and I never know when. It's all reflected on resale price too.

[QUiKSR20]

These posts always pop up and the comments never cease to amaze me, Being an "ENTHUSIAST" that has tinkered with many cars and engines at a high level the fanboys blow my mind..

Yes we are all here because we love and drive BMW's, are they less reliable than many of the Japanese cars? Absolutely this is not up for discussion its a FACT. Does it make me like my
BMW less? No, My car drives great I just know i have to take care of everything it needs when it needs it or there will be hell to pay there is little wiggle room on the maintenance.

VW crowd is the same, Excuse after excuse, The repeat that all cars have issues and this is normal ( I have a VW as well which I love )... Just call a spade a spade, Im not a blind fanboy to any brand.
I have a 20 year old Turbo SE-R that I rev to 8K rpm daily and boost it to 15lbs and its never tripped a damn check engine light or broke anything shy of an axel and a clutch.. This car is making around
300WHP and is drag and road raced daily so enough with the excuses.

All cars have their issues but the German ones have more, But they also tend to offer a more rewarding experience and offer a solid feel so I deal with the tradeoff.

The Honda dogging here is ridiculous though, Yes there is many ricers with fart-cans making racket but their engines are some of the best in the world.. In the race
scene they have 1.8-2.4 liter motors making 1000+ HP and they push the limit more than any other brand.. Look at the cars the GTR has been whooping on.

If you are a "True Car Guy" meaning you work on cars you race cars you enjoy cars... Not just bring your car to someone and throw money at them you simply cannot deny the engineering and greatness that is Honda and Japanese Engines..

BMW's are great but they are by no means " Cutting Edge " or much more advanced than any many other brands atleast when it comes to engine tech.. Handling, fit/finish and styling is a diff story and why I am attracted to them. I wouldn't call my BMW a piece of crap though by any-means just not willing to make excuses for things that should be better in a brand that prides itself on " German Enineering ".

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

This is of course assuming it starts up at all.

Yeah. When I got my 848, I was wondering if there was something wrong with the starter system. The thing cranked over so slowly I didn't think it would fire up. Replacing the Yuasa lead acid battery to a lighter more CCA Li based battery pretty much solved it. But my 04 ZX-10R still cranks over strongly since the day I bought with the run of the mill lead acid battery I have in it.

[IndotagSwizz]

Originally Posted by abeardo83

All cobblers - I've owned a prefacelift and post facelift S2000.
Honda state 1000miles / litre of oil useage is perfectly fine too, so it's not just BMW.

I've seen a fair few stock S2000's that have had blown engines (I've helped replace two for two friends... so that's 2 S2k's out of 9 (so translating to a 22% fail rate).

Honda changed that valve retainers in the facelift because earlier ones failed with use. The cars themselves have issues - blown shock absorbers, siezed alignment bolts, catalytic converters that fall apart, crappy imobilizers and alarms, prematurely wearing CV cups... do I really need to continue??

ALL car companies end up having faults with their stuff - that's called engineering.

Personally, I have no idea where this myth of German reliability came from... WW
showed that German equipment whilst being advanced, was horribly unreliable (2days to replace a Panther gearbox anyone??). Tell you what though, I wouldn't swap my 335i for another S2000...

Completely disagree with you regarding Japanese and Honda reliability, immobilizing alarms??? Never heard that, most likely an aftermarket alarm, trannys failing?? Yes but prematurely?? Hell no, I never had a tranny on a Honda that I owned from brand new that didn't make it to at least 130k miles and by the way when it did on my last Honda I got another from a junkyard installed in 2 hours for $700 that made it another 100k and not a light on my dashboard or any issues ever came up, I think a lot of times people buy used cars whether German or Japanese that are lemons and then believe all cars that brand makes are a total piece of shit

[abeardo83]

Disagree with me all you want chaps. My writing is based on first hand experience of being round s2000's in the UK for the best part of 10years.
Never said transmissions fail - I said CV cups wear after 80k miles to the point where they need swapping out.
Do some reading on the UK side of the s2k forum. Shed loads of MY2009 s2000's used to lunch their engines within the first 10k - 20k miles... All down to crank float - no boosting or oil starvation. And as for zero engines dying through general use, I can send you the Facebook posts of me and my mates swapping put engines because their previous engines have let go during normal driving.

Don't presume to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've spent hundreds of hours messing around with s2000's.

Coming back to what I ended my last post with, pretty much every car maker has issues that need remediation at some point. An awful lot of automotive engineering is theory and compromise. Both Honda and BMW have pretty impressive heritage of building great cars, but they all have their foibles. What I won't do is sit there and let someone sit there and say x car is miles better than y car, when I know different from experience.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yeah. When I got my 848, I was wondering if there was something wrong with the starter system. The thing cranked over so slowly I didn't think it would fire up. Replacing the Yuasa lead acid battery to a lighter more CCA Li based battery pretty much solved it. But my 04 ZX-10R still cranks over strongly since the day I bought with the run of the mill lead acid battery I have in it.

When I rode I had a good friend with a 749 dark. I would always invite him out for rides. My other friend Bob had an old 900SS, I had my trusty 600RR. Literally three times in a row we showed up to pick up Jason and the 749 dark wouldn't start. We'd wait for about 30 minutes before giving up and leaving Jason behind. We'd ride for a couple of hours, then head home. When I got home, I'd get a message from Jason saying his bike started shortly after we left. That bike was a total dung pile and he sold it shortly thereafter.

Fast forward two years, I moved to Florida and made friends with a guy with a 999. Same story, bike would occasionally not start. One time we were at the track, and his bike wouldn't start for the entire day on Saturday. Sunday morning arrives, bike starts up on the first try.

[NeoGeo]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Yes, some select Japanese car models are (Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Volvo too) notorious for tranny issues partialy due to fluid never replaced maybe. Some 328s have tranny issues as well by the way.

I am not a fan boy, I don't think I am....

As far as engineering goes. I would like to know where is the engineering behind HPFP failing since 2007? Where is the engineering behind plastic water pump that fail around 40-50k miles? Where is the engineering behind rod bearings in M cars, they been failing since 2001? Porsche IMS? Porsche and BMW seals that start to leak right after warranty? I am sorry but thats not engineering, thats bullshit.

Edit: also a note here.....when I buy a Japanese car I know what to expect and I know what can fail, with Germans I never do and I never know when. It's all reflected on resale price too.

Well I'm happy that you've hit a streak of good luck with your Japanese vehicle purchases. I can tell you that there are many people that have been less fortunate than you.

If you are trying to imply that BMW engineers have purposefully included poor components in their vehicles, neglected to care about quality, or are otherwise incompetent, I'd have to disagree with your sentiments. Perhaps your own poor experiences with your BMW purchases have contributed to your confirmation bias.

I can tell you that I have had more issues with my Type R, my Civic, my Accord, my TL, and my Prelude than I have ever had with the BMW cars I've owned. My problems have ranged from transmission issues and flakey electronics, all the way to excessive oil consumption. If you think Honda's are immune to rod bearing failures you should check out Honda-tech once in a while to listen to all the people that moan and groan over there.

Do the poor experiences I've had make Honda a failure? Absolutely not; do they make Japanese engineering bullshit? Absolutely not. Honda is a fantastic company that makes (or at least used to make) wonderful and inspiring products.

What I can say, as someone who has engineered and installed industrial electronics, software and heavy machinery around the world, is that there are a lot of positive things that can be said about German engineering as well.

You don't have to look too far to see proof of this. What flag is associated with the most wins at Le Mans? Who's on top of the Formula 1 world? Which other martial handlers can actually compete with Liebherr's LH series? Who's more advanced in fluid power motion control than Bosch Rexroth? The list goes on, and it's not accidental.

German engineering is far from perfect, but to call it bullshit is certainly a bit of a stretch.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by NeoGeo

Well I'm happy that you've hit a streak of good luck with your Japanese vehicle purchases. I can tell you that there are many people that have been less fortunate than you.

If you are trying to imply that BMW engineers have purposefully included poor components in their vehicles, neglected to care about quality, or are otherwise incompetent, I'd have to disagree with your sentiments. Perhaps your own poor experiences with your BMW purchases have contributed to your confirmation bias.

I can tell you that I have had more issues with my Type R, my Civic, my Accord, my TL, and my Prelude than I have ever had with the BMW cars I've owned. My problems have ranged from transmission issues and flakey electronics, all the way to excessive oil consumption. If you think Honda's are immune to rod bearing failures you should check out Honda-tech once in a while to listen to all the people that moan and groan over there.

Do the poor experiences I've had make Honda a failure, absolutely not; do they make Japanese engineering bullshit, absolutely not. Honda is a fantastic company that makes (or at least used to make) wonderful and inspiring products.

What I can say, as someone who has engineered and installed industrial electronics, software and heavy machinery around the world, there is a lot of positive things that can be said about German engineering as well.

You don't have to look too far to see proof of this. What flag is associated with the most wins at Le Mans? Who's on top of the Formula 1 world? Which other martial handlers can actually compete with Liebherr's LH series? Who's more advanced in fluid power motion control than Bosch Rexroth? The list goes on, and it's not accidental.

German engineering is far from perfect, but to call it bullshit is certainly a bit of a stretch.

Piss poor BMW engineering is not because they cant make a perfect car....even Russians can, they dont want or need to. All failures are due to cost savings in engineering and parts department. Then if you make a BMW last 200k miles, less people will buy them and parts. Reduced maintenance also contributes to reliability. Lifetime fluids is marketing BS, 15k oil changes also marketing BS.....that alone just shows you that BMW is there to make money first even if it comes with poor reliability

[NeoGeo]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Piss poor BMW engineering is not because they cant make a perfect car....even Russians can, they dont want or need to. All failures are due to cost savings in engineering and parts department. Then if you make a BMW last 200k miles, less people will buy them and parts. Reduced maintenance also contributes to reliability. Lifetime fluids is marketing BS, 15k oil changes also marketing BS.....that alone just shows you that BMW is there to make money first even if it comes with poor reliability

Okay, so your actual point is that BMW is an opportunistic company that is more interested in making money than making good products. Accordingly BMW has engineered in timed failures to boost their own revenue.

I suppose you are entitled to that opinion.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by NeoGeo

Okay, so your actual point is that BMW is an opportunistic company that is more interested in making money than making good products. Accordingly BMW has engineered in timed failures to boost their own revenue.

I suppose you are entitled to that opinion.

Just like Japanese/American cars are not looking for high performance cars. Their buyers are people who want cheaper and reliable car.

Obviously BMW is boosting its revenue by advertising "maintenance free" cars with lifetime fluid etc. Its a fact. And obviously they try to save money on parts here and there. Just like issuing a recall is a big deal for car manufacturers, its about the money, not cars or owners. And free maintenance is about the money, not car reliability.

[oolas3]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

I actually swapped my 335i for S2000.....no comparison here, with S2000 being miles ahead in everything but luxury feel.

You forgot it's slow, it's a convertible, only 2 seats, tiny trunk, and cramped interior. Other than that it's miles ahead. Also, I don't think many people are cross shopping these cars. I'm not saying the s2000 isn't a great car but you have to make a lot of compromises. Probably why sales numbers were never that great.

[Jaghave]

No such thing as a reliable car all machine break sooner or later and the amount of stress and lack of Maintaince can speed that up. Bmw are driven hard and the company does everything in it power to postpone Maintaince so it obviously going to break.

There an old saying at Ford
We don't lease v8 mustang because it will come back with 30,000 miles gain at a rate of a quarter of a mile.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

When I rode I had a good friend with a 749 dark. I would always invite him out for rides. My other friend Bob had an old 900SS, I had my trusty 600RR. Literally three times in a row we showed up to pick up Jason and the 749 dark wouldn't start. We'd wait for about 30 minutes before giving up and leaving Jason behind. We'd ride for a couple of hours, then head home. When I got home, I'd get a message from Jason saying his bike started shortly after we left. That bike was a total dung pile and he sold it shortly thereafter.

Fast forward two years, I moved to Florida and made friends with a guy with a 999. Same story, bike would occasionally not start. One time we were at the track, and his bike wouldn't start for the entire day on Saturday. Sunday morning arrives, bike starts up on the first try.

I didn't get into the details about Ducati as a whole until I picked up my 09 848. I only did because I felt like getting something different. The bike has been more or less reliable for me. There have been a few issues which were fortunately covered by warranty and didn't leave me stranded. The major ones off the top of my head were a bad head gasket, failed clutch master, and a failed immobilizer RFID key antenna ring around the ignition key cylinder. The failed head gasket was a unique one as it took a couple of trips to the dealer. My 848 has 15,000 miles on it now and due for some major service.

I do have to say the Duc is unique. If you're an attention whore, it gets that in spades. The sound of the V-Twin even for a middle weight bike is pretty intoxicating with the Akra slip ons. But if I had to do it all over again, I would have an S1000RR along side my ZX-10R. I've had the pleasure of putting an S1000RR through its paces on the track and it's one awesome machine. This despite having dunked a decent amount of money on suspension work on the 848.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by m3m3mr

You forgot it's slow, it's a convertible, only 2 seats, tiny trunk, and cramped interior. Other than that it's miles ahead. Also, I don't think many people are cross shopping these cars. I'm not saying the s2000 isn't a great car but you have to make a lot of compromises. Probably why sales numbers were never that great.

It's all questionable....for me its slow, for 228 owners its fast for me convertible is negative, for others its the best thing about s2k. I loved 2 seats, never use back anyway, and trunk was huge for me too I had 2 16ft ladders, big toolbox, and bunch of materials for a job....had passenger as well ))

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

It's all questionable....for me its slow, for 228 owners its fast for me convertible is negative, for others its the best thing about s2k. I loved 2 seats, never use back anyway, and trunk was huge for me too I had 2 16ft ladders, big toolbox, and bunch of materials for a job....had passenger as well ))

The S2000 is only 13.5 feet long - how do you put 2 16 foot ladders in it

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

The S2000 is only 13.5 feet long - how do you put 2 16 foot ladders in it

Telescopic

[Draper]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

It's all questionable....for me its slow, for 228 owners its fast for me convertible is negative, for others its the best thing about s2k. I loved 2 seats, never use back anyway, and trunk was huge for me too I had 2 16ft ladders, big toolbox, and bunch of materials for a job....had passenger as well ))

So...

Car was slow, hated the convertible, but it worked ok to haul stuff?

Sounds like a great choice.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Draper

So...

Car was slow, hated the convertible, but it worked ok to haul stuff?

Sounds like a great choice.

I only replied to post, I havent listed why people buy them even today, 16 years after they were introduced

Add: super reliable, very comfortable seats, solid built, amazing handling even in day to day normal driving (one of the best on track), addictive race engine, best transmission in any car to date, rare, goes up in value with years

[Draper]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

I only replied to post, I havent listed why people buy them even today, 16 years after they were introduced

Add: super reliable, very comfortable seats, solid built, amazing handling even in day to day normal driving (one of the best on track), addictive race engine, best transmission in any car to date, rare, goes up in value with years