[TheBingoBalls]

Everyone has their views and opinions on what good steering is to them but to me, what the E9X and earlier had that the new BMW's lack is that feedback to know which way the wheels are turning/pointing. The weighting isn't that much of a problem to me (switched to Sport(+)) even though it does feel boosted/artificial and I can some lose road feedback go but when I can't feel which way the tires are pointed, it removes that connection to the car for me.

[williewonkerz]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

I wonder if this is just the 1.0 version of the EPS and in short time we'll have a 2.0 version with more "natural feedback". At some point in development, you have to just put a stake in the ground and say "we're shipping this, we can evolve it later".

Sure there's limits to this evolution based on the hardware in place yet I'm a firm believer that if there's room for improvement, it will be made either by the manufacturer or some 3rd party.

I agree completely. I wouldn't take much to have vibration sensors in the wheel and steering rack that are "off" during normal driving, and relaying a sort of vibration system in the steering wheel during "sport mode".

I can't see this as a real issue that would be difficult to engineer and overcome. It just comes down to how important it is and how much you're willing to pay.

What if BMW said they could, for $1000, how about $2500? I suspect most would balk at it, but if we all bought it, then maybe in the future the price would come down and then more cars might have it.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I think the BMW algorithm or method that they used of their steering simply was originally flawed.

They are improving it and making it better, and we are probably on BMW EPS version 4.0 right now. The first version came out on the x3 and the f30 and was horrible.

Is it really that simple? We had EPS in some E9* models in Europe and hardly any negative comment on the steering, it was positively received by many drivers, as it was lighter weighted, (probably not even known to be EPS by some users).

BMW may not have expected the degree of negative reception to EPS when rolled out in the F series models.

[David70]

Originally Posted by kugasman

Has anyone done a good analysis of the mechanical differences between eps and hydraulic systems? How about an analysis of Porsche vs BMW systems? Seems it should be possible to make an excellent steering system hat can be varied with software. (As already mentioned in multiple posts above.).

I'll second the opinion that this guy's answers are concerning but not surprising.

Some information here http://www.caranddriver.com/features...n-test-feature

[es1]

Originally Posted by mvigod

Interesting article and topic.

I do agree that BMW does not have the greatest steering feel. However, comparing each car is really all relative. I have an F10 M5 which is better than my '12 X5M or '15 X5 but not by much. Also have a '15 335 which is also not great and similar to the other BMW's.

I also have a Ferrari 458 Spider and thought the feel was pretty darn good on that relative to the BMW's. Not great but still an order of magnitude better.

Then about a month ago got a '16 911 GT3 RS. Wow! The steering feel in that car knocks the socks off the 458 and all the BMW's by a mile. That was my 1st porsche I've ever owned and the only way to describe the feedback on the 911 is that it feels like a direct manual steering setup without the extra muscle & effort required to turn the wheel. Impeccable.

So again this is all relative in terms of steering between cars. The 911 is the best feedback of any car I've driven in 30 years. Just perfection. In comparison, the 458 and BMW's all feel totally numb and devoid of any feel or feedback to me relative to the 911. The gap is that big IMHO.

So somehow Porsche figured out the magical formula on the 911 GT3 RS. If Ferrari or BMW can reverse engineer that, bottle that good stuff up, they have pure perfection.

OK now seriously....hedge fund manager or what

[es1]

I am actually little scared when driving my wife's X5. Feel at low speed is so light ... it's lexus on steroids multiplied by Tahoe

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Exactly.

So, are they going to design a steering system for the select few who will take their cars to the limit, or the masses? I think it's a no-brainer.

You keep adding water to the Kool Aid and pretty soon all you got is water.

[FLOSS M]

Originally Posted by jaybird124

Anyone have the Fall Line monoball conversion? Good and bad what real differences are noticed and how does that affect a DD?

I have the Dinan - I have no issues with it as a DD or track use. It feels tighter on turns and a bit more stable, good feedback through the steering wheel.

[bigjae1976]

I think steering feel is just the start of BMWs movement away from the ultimate driving machine. Their cars in general make me want to drive economically.

I never get that urge in my E46 M3 or E90 M3.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

I blame eps and the resulting degradation in steering performance on the environmental loons demanding unrealistic fuel economy targets.

[ChrisK]

From what I have read, the M2's EPS is the best so far since leaving hydraulic steering. I think BMW is honing the engineering and software, and soon they will have it nailed. Maybe Porsche started the engineering work on their EPS much earlier than BMW.

[yousefnjr]

EPS isn't new to BMW. The e85 had EPS in 2003, that's 13+ years... No learning curve excuses here

[pz619]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

EPS isn't new to BMW. The e85 had EPS in 2003, that's 13+ years... No learning curve excuses here

Agreed. Especially since other manufacturers figured it out far quicker.

[burrito007]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Steering in my F10 535i was comfortable and smooth. Steering in my X5M is precise and raw. Both are good, no complaints.

your x5M is hydraulic just like my X5 3.5i My X5 feels much more connected to the road than any new 3 series (and definitely than the new X5) which is why i am hesitant to trade it in even though i have no airbags!

The 328s I have driven with sport package just dont fee connected. For example, when going over a large bump at speed while turning, my X5's steering wheel will move based on the direction the wheels hop over the bump. I can manually control that and I can feel it in my hands. With the 328, going over the same bump, i KNOW the wheels are tweaking back and forth on the pavement even though my hands are holding the wheel steady. It feels very disconcerting.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

EPS isn't new to BMW. The e85 had EPS in 2003, that's 13+ years... No learning curve excuses here

The 2003 5 series also got EPS if I remember correctly.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think steering feel is just the start of BMWs movement away from the ultimate driving machine. Their cars in general make me want to drive economically.

I never get that urge in my E46 M3 or E90 M3.

My 2013 X1 actually does make you want to drive economically and just dawdle along. But it has zero engine sound and electric steering. The Steering is too strong on center where it is very vague. Once off center an undue amount of effort is needed relative to the steering input that is needed. In other words, just off center, it requires a lot of input( higher effort than should be ) more so than would be the case from a mechanical rack. This causes the steering input to be heavily one direction. A bump, a strong wind also require more effort than is needed to return to center.


That said, when pressed into duty on a Driving tour last weekend, I had no problem keeping up with an MZ4 driven by another hpde instructor.
It's also easily able to keep pace ahead of e90 non M3 as well.

By applying a lot of steering input and diving into corners I was able to accelerate out of them very easily and comfortably with torque.. Of course I had to wait for the tires to howl (!) with understeer since I couldn't actually FEEL the far understeering because their is no feedback from the road/tires.

As far as BMW getting away... They did.. And they are trying to find their way back.


This technology reminds me of KERS in F1. Some designs just didn't work for certain teams and they continued to have issues while other teams had an excellent design. I really feel like BMW M engineers scrapped a lot of the former EPS system and started over somehow for the M2.


Go Drive an M2. If you can find one ! production not limited ... :

The M2 has by far the best iteration of EPS in a BMW. They did a good job finally of weighting the steering for nearly all situations, unlike my X1.

Over the course of several decades , BMW
steering has gone from great to excellent to total dud with EPS of the F30 to great again with the M2. With some more time I think it will get back to excellent. The M2 is really quite for EPS. It's not as good as mechanical though.

[scoale]

I always bought BMW's because of the driving experience - and steering is a big part of that. It now seems like BMW is replacing driving dynamics with horsepower and technology. I think BMW's efforts to align its products with the mainstream market will result in a less distinct and less special product that will be more heavily cross-shopped. After all, as other European AND American builds offer comparable or superior driving dynamics, what will BMW's key point of differentiation be? What will there be for an "enthusiast" to be enthusiastic about.

I recently bought a Porsche and, when the time comes, wonder if I might replace my E92 M3 with another Porsche or some other non-BMW make.

In fairness, I'm not yet writing BMW off. As long as they keep popping out cars like the M2 there is some reason to hope.

[CRtoE92]

Originally Posted by pz619

Honestly I think it's what BMW struggles with the most. It's not like EPS can't have great feel. Take the Honda S2000 as an example.

Even the M235i which is suppose to be one of the better steering newer BMWs I feel it's not that good. Outside of the fact that there really isn't any feedback (good or bad) coming from the steering wheel I feel the diciest part is the variable steering. Variable Steering in tighter hairpins are vague at best. The fact is that I can't really predict how much turn in I'm going to get when I turn the wheel The ratio changes on numerous conditions and in the end it comes off feeling unnatural and unbalanced. Because it's not progressive I often find myself having to back the ratio off a bit because I've dialed in the wheel too much. This doesn't inspire confidence on tight mountain roads. Parking lots maybe, but that's not really why I bought the car.

I love the way the steering wheel feels in my S2000 CR But i also love the way my M4 feels S2000 feels more raw but M4 isnt bad at all

I guess im not a racer enough to feel the differences

[F32Fleet]

A couple of things.

Nobody from BMW is going to crap on their product so it's silly to expect otherwise. The only time I've read were a spokesperson made a negative comment about their product was when they were providing context about a new and "better" replacement.

We also should remember that manufacturers have to meet ever increasing FE targets. Dumping the hydraulic system really helps in this regard. The problem is that BMW isn't big enough sell a bunch of cars with EPS to offset the hit to CAFE for the few models they do sell with a hydraulic system. It's an expensive proposition as well. Toyota, Mercedes, GM, VW can afford it.


my 2 cents

[vinny84]

I didn't read everyone's post, but here's my assessment.

When I had the M235i, I truly enjoyed the steering, especially in the Sport + setting. However, it did not hold a candle to my previous 135i. I thought the steering in the 1er was way more precise and the weighted feel felt better to me.

Currently, I have a F30 320i xDrive as my DD and I absolutely hate the steering and the suspension for that matter. Probably the worst feeling and handling of any BMW I owned.

If you're worried about the steering in the new BMW's. My advice is to get the sport/M sport package or M model and you will have a much better involved driving experience.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by Z K

... EPS itself isn't evil, there's great steering feel in cars like the Cayman/Boxster and S2000 and NSX. ...

That's one reason why I'll be keeping my S2000.
The M2 will replace my gracefully aging 540i.

[iahawkeye]

My $. 02 as a relatively new/younger Bimmer file. This is all my opinion so ymmv

The eps on the f30 335 is hot garbage. Worst part of the car. It's accurate as all shit but it's as dull as a 99 ford Taurus. As bland as an any-year camry and it utterly ruins the f30's amazing Motor options and tranny. Sure it got gotten better but I haven't driven an eps M car so I have no basis for comparison.... I still have an e36 and an e92, however
I DO NOT want a new BMW. I want the new engine/tranny in my e92 or my e36. Period. I'm going American muscle if BMW continues to pander to the larger market and keeps spewing Lexus-esque garbage. That's one of the big reasons I love bimmers and it's gone unless you have 80k to drop. I don't.

Wasn't that the draw for BMW? Semi affordable but GREAT drivers car?

I've driven the new 5er as well and I was thoroughly disappointed with the steering. It felt like driving grandma's couch, even in "sport" mode... Oh it was an M-"sport" as well.

Fix it or forget it. I'd rather have the extra lbs over the front end and the extra maintenance if this is what BMW thinks their cars should drive like these days.

/rant