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      08-05-2019, 11:23 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
I mean, those discussions werenít wrong. It only took a dozen more years for BMW to loose the plot with the likes of the F30 and a zillion more SUVs.

Iím not a BMW enthusiast, but, rather, a driving enthusiast, and Iíd have been fine if both Porsche and BMW just quit after around 2012.
I remember driving much simpler and 'fun' cars back in my younger days, the changes are not something limited to BMW and Porsche.

For me, the issues for current models are much deeper than simply saying BMW has lost the plot.

A sideways look at something like the safety and weight of cars, is all against the requirements of the driving enthusiast. Take something like the width of cars... interesting article by Richard Bremner in AutoCar news, August 4th. The width 'subject' is just one aspect of why we are, where we are, today.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/f...coming-so-wide
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      08-06-2019, 06:55 AM   #200
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Sad Realities

The sad truth is BMW cannot make sports cars work or sell in the market. This is very strange considering that they have real talent producing such good driverís cars.

They also seem to cock it up. If they get the looks right (Z8, i8, the ne Z4) the dynamics donít stack up and if they get the dynamics to work the cars look underwhelming or donít feel that special (8 series, 4 series).

Maybe they should just give up 2 doors and stick to 4. Maybe 8 is an unlucky number for BMW.
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      08-06-2019, 01:37 PM   #201
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An X3 electric car with a 155 mile range is a dead man walking. What is BMW thinking? They can produce this car and won't sell it. These days anything less than 200 is unsellable and for a luxury brand, anything less than 300 is probably worthless.

Re Arcade's comments: I see more X1s, very rarely see an X2. Different sales between SoCal and Arizona I guess. My guess is that the C8 Corvette may be part of the reason for the Z4 being ended. If one can buy a midengined sports car for about the same price, why buy the Z4?
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      08-06-2019, 05:42 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM View Post
He also designed the E39 (often thought of as pre-Bangle) and the timeless Z4/Z4M coupe (I"m biased of course).
That was Joji Nagashima who did the E39 (and the E36, E90 and Z3).
Actually Bangle was the boss and personally did very few designs at all from 93-2010. I believe the Bangle butt was actually AVHs work, with Bangle as the producer/director.

Bangle did stuff like Gina though.
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      08-06-2019, 05:43 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
An X3 electric car with a 155 mile range is a dead man walking. What is BMW thinking? They can produce this car and won't sell it. These days anything less than 200 is unsellable and for a luxury brand, anything less than 300 is probably worthless.

Re Arcade's comments: I see more X1s, very rarely see an X2. Different sales between SoCal and Arizona I guess. My guess is that the C8 Corvette may be part of the reason for the Z4 being ended. If one can buy a midengined sports car for about the same price, why buy the Z4?
Z4 hasn't really ever sold well. Roadsters came and went with the 90s economy
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      08-06-2019, 08:18 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by N & M View Post
The sad truth is BMW cannot make sports cars work or sell in the market. This is very strange considering that they have real talent producing such good driver's cars.

They also seem to cock it up. If they get the looks right (Z8, i8, the ne Z4) the dynamics don't stack up and if they get the dynamics to work the cars look underwhelming or don't feel that special (8 series, 4 series).

Maybe they should just give up 2 doors and stick to 4. Maybe 8 is an unlucky number for BMW.
IMO the market doesn't want that type of car. Some may like the idea of it but the majority of luxury buyers want a well appointed commuter car with a low monthly lease payment.

Hell 1/3 of all new car sales in the US are leases (per WSJ). That's a lot of turnover.

The Access BMW or whatever their rental program called is going to be their downfall. Flaky consumers with their sense of entitlement and the attention span of a squirrel.
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      08-07-2019, 06:56 PM   #205
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Maybe, but after all, it's auto journalism, which has no shortage of opinions that are often presented as facts.

That said, I've been a stout BMW fan since 1998, when I ordered my first BMW (a 528i MT). And I haven't strayed, although I've been tempted. But even I, a huge fan, look at some of these new "design" elements and wonder what is going on. I realize BMW has to make a profit and I also realize the Chinese market is a growing one and that base may have different tastes; but really, I look at some of the new overwrought front fascias and wonder WTF.

As for Bangle, his BMW designs are actually getting more respect now than when the cars were released. His designs were certainly polarizing, but at least they were not boring and adhered to an underlying design principle. And some of his most contested styling elements (e.g. the E65 7 series trunk) influenced other car manufacturers. He also designed the E39 (often thought of as pre-Bangle) and the timeless Z4/Z4M coupe (I"m biased of course).
Everyone keeps saying Chris Bangle was the designer of the e39 but it was Joji Nagashima, who also designed the e90 and a few others.
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      08-07-2019, 06:58 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
That was Joji Nagashima who did the E39 (and the E36, E90 and Z3).
This!

Beat me to it, lol.

Why does everyone keep saying chris bangle? Lol

Give Japanese designer Joji Nagashima credit!!
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      08-07-2019, 08:44 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Ryan997GT3RS View Post
Everyone keeps saying Chris Bangle was the designer of the e39 but it was Joji Nagashima, who also designed the e90 and a few others.
Right, I meant that Bangle was head of BMW design when the E39 was released. I'm not sure which cars Bangle designed himself. As I understand it (have not researched it however), Adrian van Hooydonk designed some of the more controversial cars, such as the E65 7 series.
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      08-08-2019, 02:42 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinM View Post
Right, I meant that Bangle was head of BMW design when the E39 was released. I'm not sure which cars Bangle designed himself. As I understand it (have not researched it however), Adrian van Hooydonk designed some of the more controversial cars, such as the E65 7 series.
This. Bangle didnít personally design a lot of the cars, both good and bad, but he was head of the design department during that time.

In fact, Christopher Chapman, who initially designed the 1er, also designed the X-Coupe, which was the first BMW to use Bangleís then controversial flame surface concept.

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      08-08-2019, 10:17 PM   #209
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Perhaps Z4 and 8 series coupe will be future collectible cars, as a result of this..
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      08-08-2019, 10:47 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by GioM3 View Post
in the beginning of 90's, BMW was success story, basic model lineup: 3,5,7 and odd Z3, then comes X5 which was success as well, then X3, disaster, 1 series, disaster apart from 1M, then X1, 2 series Scenic, 5GT, 3GT, all disasters.
BMW should stick with 3 and 4 series based on same platform: one sedan one coupe, M3,M4,
5 and 6 series plus M5 M6,
7 and 7iL no M,
X5 no M,
One lightweight Supercar/Racecar/New technology pioneer/Poster/Dream.
Simple.
I like this idea.

In the old days, I can tell different BMW models from afar. Nowadays, there are so many models, I have to look at the numbers itself to figure it out.

Nonetheless, I still love my M2. It's the only BMW I'd consider buying.
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      08-09-2019, 12:47 AM   #211
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Perhaps Z4 and 8 series coupe will be future collectible cars, as a result of this..
Highly doubt it. They'd be collectors cars if it wasn't a mass produced vehicle. BMW will sell these to anyone that wants one and I can promise you they'll both depreciate harder than the New York Giants upcoming season.
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      08-09-2019, 11:33 AM   #212
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They're killing the Z4?

They just invested millions in it.

WTF? It's a brand new car. Did they not do market research?

WTF is wrong with this company?!?!
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      08-09-2019, 11:40 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by jwr0721 View Post
They're killing the Z4?

They just invested millions in it.

WTF? It's a brand new car. Did they not do market research?

WTF is wrong with this company?!?!
New management (CEO) onboard.

And remember, BMW is also controlled with an iron grip by the ultra wealthy but very secretive Quandt family.

Nothing happens in that company without the Quandt's seal of approval.
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      08-09-2019, 11:40 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by jwr0721 View Post
They're killing the Z4?

They just invested millions in it.

WTF? It's a brand new car. Did they not do market research?

WTF is wrong with this company?!?!
*Correction* Toyota invested $$$ in it.

The deal between BMW and Toyota was that Toyota would pay for the development costs for both the Supra and Z4 in exchange for lending over the powertrain and numerous parts.
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      08-09-2019, 11:42 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwr0721 View Post
They're killing the Z4?

They just invested millions in it.

WTF? It's a brand new car. Did they not do market research?

WTF is wrong with this company?!?!
*Correction* Toyota invested $$$ in it.

The deal between BMW and Toyota was that Toyota would pay for the development costs for both the Supra and Z4 in exchange for lending over the powertrain and numerous parts.
I am not sure that is correct.

Toyota did borrow a lot of base BMW components but the development path of the Supra and Z4 was completely independent and far apart from each other.

Savagegeese YT channel explains this very well in his Supra review video.
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      08-09-2019, 11:43 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwr0721 View Post
They're killing the Z4?

They just invested millions in it.

WTF? It's a brand new car. Did they not do market research?

WTF is wrong with this company?!?!
*Correction* Toyota invested $$$ in it.

The deal between BMW and Toyota was that Toyota would pay for the development costs for both the Supra and Z4 in exchange for lending over the powertrain and numerous parts.
I am not sure that is correct.

Toyota did borrow a lot of base BMW components but the development path of the Supra and Z4 was completely independent and far apart from each other.

Savagegeese YT channel explains this very well in his Supra review video.
Yes the two went in their separate ways, but Toyota was in agreement to pay heavily to BMW, which is why the Z4 stayed alive, because costs were much lower for BMW
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      08-09-2019, 08:07 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Savagegeese YT channel explains this very well in his Supra review video.
As mentioned in the Supra thread, that's just a lot of marketing speak, along with the vents that can allegedly be opened up. The two cars are nearly mechanically identical, and the differences simply come down to how BMW and Toyota tuned/programmed/set them up.
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      08-13-2019, 06:39 AM   #218
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Logical.

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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
IMO the market doesn't want that type of car. Some may like the idea of it but the majority of luxury buyers want a well appointed commuter car with a low monthly lease payment.

Hell 1/3 of all new car sales in the US are leases (per WSJ). That's a lot of turnover.

The Access BMW or whatever their rental program called is going to be their downfall. Flaky consumers with their sense of entitlement and the attention span of a squirrel.
No arguments from me on that my friend. In my view it is the very circumstance and condition that you describe that kills off the success of their 2 door offerings.

By very nature, these kinds of cars have to compromise a great extend of civility and convenience and be somewhat challenging to appeal to their (small niche) target market.
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      08-13-2019, 07:15 AM   #219
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"Once bitten, twice shyóthe Bavarians remain suspicious of any kind of extensive partnership ever since the ill-fated purchase of Mini, Rover, and Land Rover took the company to the brink of disaster back in 1994."

The buying of failing European manufacturers in the 1990's almost killed off Ford, GM, and BMW. Jaguar, Rover, Mini, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Auston Martin, Saab, all should have died when the graves were already dug.
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