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      08-06-2019, 02:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
...I do think BMW traded short term sales gains for long term success. People bought BMWs because they had a reputation of being sporty, even when individual people didn't always care. That reputation has been lost, and their sales are now suffering. These days, there is nothing exceptional about BMW and people are starting to realize it. Brand reputation matters-- and BMW without sportiness is just a crappier Mercedes.
UK motoring press are receiving the G20 very well indeed. AutoCar give it 5-Stars...

…and in it's verdict.

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In a segment where new rivals have been given room to emerge and old ones the opportunity to eke out a significant sales lead, this car is clearly the product of a company intent on making the 3 Series the default affordable executive option – for keen drivers, but perhaps even for others too. Right now, it deserves to be considered nothing less. *
* Bold text added by me.

Other UK magazines are also putting it top of the pack.

Perhaps Europe (including the UK) see the BMW 3-series in a different way than the US market.
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      08-06-2019, 02:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
In a segment where new rivals have been given room to emerge and old ones the opportunity to eke out a significant sales lead, this car is clearly the product of a company intent on making the 3 Series the default affordable executive option – for keen drivers, but perhaps even for others too. Right now, it deserves to be considered nothing less.
I feel this says it all..... "Default affordable executive option"

AKA: Great car to buy and drive whilst wearing a suit.

AKA: Not a fun and sporty car for those who want some excitement, but a great choice for those who want to show their mates that they have 'arrived'.

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      08-06-2019, 02:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I feel this says it all..... "Default affordable executive option"
That's what the 3-series has been since the 1980's over here. The E30 fulfilled the same brief in the UK.
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      08-06-2019, 02:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Attributes that would increase the chance of a vehicle being classified as a "sports sedan" at least a "sporty sedan".

...

Adjectives describing a 'sports sedan'.

...
I'd say you've successfully identified some traits that make a vehicle fun to drive.

An issue I see here is that there is a lot of subjectivity wrapped up in these terms, attributes, and qualities, and that has potential to make for a rather less than practical definition for a generic term like "sport sedan". Now, at the same time, I would acknowledge that, unlike with a sports car where we can fairly easily give it an objective set of traits (as I did in a prior post), it's a little more tough to nail down exactly what a sport sedan is. That being said, we can at least say what a sport sedan isn't by identifying intended product purpose. It's pretty easy, for example, to say that a Toyota Yaris is not a sport sedan based on the intent - it's built to be basic transportation. While it could be fun to drive, it certainly isn't built for performance. Similarly, we can agree that a Rolls Royce Ghost isn't a sport sedan. Oh sure, it can get up and move, but it is clearly built as a car to be chauffeured around in, not thrown around on a country road.

Somewhere in between those two poles we have a group of sedans we can call sport sedans. But where do we draw the line? I don't know exactly, but I would say that dividing a group of vehicles which clearly comprise the same vehicle class due to the fact that one make/model happens to execute a little better than another has little value. Now a particular trim level of a given vehicle could be included while another wouldn't be - that makes sense. But to divide up a segment where two vehicles have the same or similar technical specs and intentions would seem to be highly agenda driven no matter how one slices it up.

Quote:
List of cars I would consider more sporty and more fun to drive than the everyday 3 series:

Alfa Romeo Giula 2.0T
Ford Focus ST (I know it's no longer available in the USA)
MINI Hardtop S or JCW
MB CLA45
VW GTi (I know it's not technically a sedan)
Honda Civic Si
Some of those aren't sedans, but at any rate, I do agree that some of those vehicles might very well be more fun to drive than a 3 Series or other BMW sedan.

That being said, going back to my earlier point, I don't see a compelling reason to keep these vehicles' direct competitors off the list of sport sedans. A big reason for that is that I don't know how you can do that without employing some corporate bias. I am not saying you have to include a Toyota Corolla since (or if) Toyota does not build a version of that car that intends to compete against the Civic Si. But, you've got the Giulia 2.0 on that list so, for example, we would have to add any other small RWD premium sedan since that's the segment where that car competes. It was built to take on (and perhaps outdo dynamically - that may very well be) the usual suspects from Germany and Japan, and Korea now too with the Genesis G70 being the only one left with a manual transmission option.

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Again - this is just my opinion, as well all know, but it's how I feel. BMW still builds amazing cars and I thoroughly enjoy most of their offering, but let's be honest here - they really are just fancy Camry these days. I've driven a Lexus and BMW back to back before, and can say - that in my opinion - the BMW was no more sporty.
I have no doubt that a contemporary 3 Series is no more sporty than a Lexus IS. We can still call the IS, the 3 Series, and every single car in that class a "premium sport sedan" because that's exactly what they were built to be, and when you compare them to a sedan that is expressly not a sport sedan, the Yaris or Ghost I mention earlier, for example, every one in the class is going to bury them in the fun department. Is there a class winner and class loser? You bet. Does BMW bring up the rear in this case? Maybe they do - I honestly don't know. But just as the worst team in the league is still included on the schedule, the worst car in the class is still on the market. If I go conduct a comparison test of all entry level luxury sport sedans, I better include everybody otherwise its an exercise with no chance of carrying any credibility.
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      08-06-2019, 02:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
List of cars I would consider more sporty and more fun to drive than the everyday 3 series:

Alfa Romeo Giula 2.0T
Ford Focus ST (I know it's no longer available in the USA)
MINI Hardtop S or JCW
MB CLA45
VW GTi (I know it's not technically a sedan)
Honda Civic Si.
For me, the elephant in the room, the 3-series is no longer a small agile vehicle. It has 'outgrown' the market that it used to be in.

My neighbour has an E39 5-series used as a daily driver. The G20 is more like that 5-series generation, than a 3-series of old.

My son runs a Focus ST 3, totally different market to the 3-series over here in the UK, 1-series is segment competitor to the ST and GTI.
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      08-06-2019, 03:09 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
For me, the elephant in the room, the 3-series is no longer a small agile vehicle. It has 'outgrown' the market that it used to be in.
.
This is a very good point. For reference, the new BMW 330i is only 3 1/2 inches shorter than.....wait for it....the Bentley Continental GT. That is insane!
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      08-06-2019, 03:26 PM   #51
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I don't doubt the BMW today doesn't drive "like" the old days, I can still tell mine feels way better than Lexus/Toyota though...

p.s. and had I known G20 is going to be as big as it is I would have waited for a year and opted for M340i instead of my 540, probably...
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      08-06-2019, 03:39 PM   #52
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I had an e39 530i until early this year. It drove light years better than any current BMW.
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      08-06-2019, 03:57 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I had an e39 530i until early this year. It drove light years better than any current BMW.
See that's the problem with these threads 'better' doesn't mean anything to any serious car company. It's a subjective measurement and that is literally the last thing a car company looks at.

You can say 'better' but engineers are instrumenting cars and looking at objective measurements and having to temper that with government regulations and market realities.
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      08-06-2019, 04:44 PM   #54
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Car&Driver can go a little overboard on the hate but it's not unfounded. Drive any F/G-chassis BMW and you'll notice a distinct difference compared to the E-chassis cars that gave the brand its strong reputation for being the "ultimate driving machine." It's so distinct that they don't feel like they come from the same automaker.

BMW has sold out and C&D is simply calling them out on their bullshit. They aren't blind haters as they rave over the M2 and BMW's SUVs still win comparison tests (since they are the least boring in their segments).

A lot of you are in denial. Sure the competition caught up, but BMW purposely sat on their laurels and watered down their vehicles to appease the masses globally. It's a very sad fall from grace.
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      08-06-2019, 05:02 PM   #55
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Here's a sure sign the grim reaper is coming for BMW.

I've registered and attended BMW UDE when it comes to my city every year for as long as I can remember. Heck I remember attending the UDE when they brought out the 228i. That must have been what, 2014?

I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR the registration spots for the weekend filling up within hours of it opening. Literally if you're not signing in within 24 hours, you're not doing any of the weekend sessions. You'd have to show up and they'll wait list you. Doesn't matter what cars they're bringing out. Even with the anemic 530e, the spots fill out fast.

You would think, with BMW bringing the iconic 3 series to the UDE events, this year's UDE would fill up immediately like the past.

Nope.

It's been 4 days since registration opened, and the early morning sessions, which are usually the first ones to fill up, last 5 years, within the first few hours of opening, are barely half full. All the other weekend spots are more or less wide open still, with less than 50 signed up so far.

This is a city and neighborhood dominated by Asian Americans. Not just any Asian Americans. Affluent CHINESE Asian Americans. The type of influencers that reflect what car tastes are like in potentially the biggest market in the world for sporty luxury sedans, and there's LESS interest here about the new 3 series than there was for the PREVIOUS generation X3 UDE launch.

If you can't get Chinese Americans to buy BMWs, you're in a heap of trouble. This is a neighborhood that has, count them, 3 of the LARGEST BMW dealerships all within a 15 mile radius. 5 if you expand to 20 (although mostly the 3 within the SGV that has Chinese speaking sales reps and managers). MY street has MORE BMWs than houses. Seriously. For reals. And it's BMWs of every kind, from your base run of the mill 320i, to your X6Ms and 7 series, to old E46 M3s and MZ4 Coupes. The Chinese LOVE BMWs. I knew how to say "Bao-Ma" and "Bem-bay (Japanese nickname for BMW)" before I learned my ABCs. Again, I kid you not.

If you can't fill the Los Angeles weekend, 9:00am UDE for both Saturday and Sunday within the first 2 hours of open registration, you have a serious problem on your hands BMW.

And this is for your bread and butter 3 series.
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      08-06-2019, 05:22 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Your 540 is just a German version of this car:

https://www.dodge.com/charger.html
as a 540i owner I laughed...

EDIT: and yes it does feel like rubbish but its better rubbish than the competitors. When my steering vibrates and tries to steer by itself because I lane changed w/o signal I knew it was a totally disconnected piece of crap. EPS is such a shame but in its defense or at least the G30 system its better than my initial reaction to the F series cars.

Last edited by wuzupfoo; 08-06-2019 at 05:30 PM..
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      08-06-2019, 05:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by wuzupfoo View Post
as a 540i owner I laughed...

EDIT: and yes it does feel like rubbish but its better rubbish than the competitors. When my steering vibrates and tries to steer by itself because I lane changed w/o signal I knew it was a totally disconnected piece of crap. EPS is such a shame but in its defense or at least the G30 system its better than my initial reaction to the F series cars.
Yeah - and I think we all know that I was engaging in quite the hyperbole with that statement - as obviously, the 5 series is a much nicer car, albeit not really any more sporty.

I love the 5 series for what it is - a giant, luxo-barge designed to eat up the miles.

Did you know the new 5 series is nearly half a foot longer than a Bentley Continental GT? Yup - it's that big.
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      08-06-2019, 06:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Yeah - and I think we all know that I was engaging in quite the hyperbole with that statement - as obviously, the 5 series is a much nicer car, albeit not really any more sporty.

I love the 5 series for what it is - a giant, luxo-barge designed to eat up the miles.

Did you know the new 5 series is nearly half a foot longer than a Bentley Continental GT? Yup - it's that big.
of course! still funny as hell tho!

and yes it is massive. It was why I didnt splurge for an M5 I didnt think it would be sporty enough with its size. Tho to BMWs credit with all the cameras, sensors, and suspension tuning they have managed to make it feel smaller. (oh and after test driving the M5, dealer didnt have one for testing at the time of purchase, I'll say its plenty sporty esp with the stuff I mentioned.)
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      08-07-2019, 12:11 AM   #59
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Has anyone truly bought a car based off a review in... Car & Driver???
Surprisingly, I have, and I felt like their love of Hondas and BMWs lead me straight from one to the other. A surprisingly high % of the cars I've owned have been on the Car and Driver 10Best. Yes, sometimes they do get repetitive with the same complaints, and the information density is too low in writing, but they give everything an in-depth fair shake with details. They have a somewhat particular "enthusiast" bent to cars and as a result the slightly softer this-generation of BMWs means they're no longer satisfied.

Otherwise, the best technical reviewer I've found is savagegeese on Youtube:



He goes into an insane amount of dealer, puts the car up on a lift, goes through every aspect of the engineering and construction from the suspension/subframe assemblies to the exhaust to the very specific idiosyncrasies of each model. He offers a very balanced take on daily drivability as well as dynamic and balance.

I'd say he is clearly above the rest of the Youtube review crowd in information and video quality, and injects some hilarious understated humor in at times.

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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I remember EVERY SINGLE YEAR the registration spots for the weekend filling up within hours of it opening. Literally if you're not signing in within 24 hours, you're not doing any of the weekend sessions. You'd have to show up and they'll wait list you. Doesn't matter what cars they're bringing out. Even with the anemic 530e, the spots fill out fast.
This is crazy because I distinctly remember rushing to get a spot in the past at the LA location, too. Maybe someone in marketing dropped the ball, figuring coasting on success was good enough.

I wonder what everyone is driving now instead. Based on videos and hearsay, the 2010s wave has moved onto the Lambos and Maseratis instead, BMW is too pleb Or it could be the capital controls that China placed recently which slowed money moving out.

Also, people have massively gravitated towards SUVs since 2014 (the year when oil prices dropped from $105 to $60 in less than a year), so if it was another X3 or X5 launching, perhaps we'd see more interest.
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      08-07-2019, 09:25 AM   #60
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C&D still does instrumented tests and comparison tests. So does Motor Trend. On the other hand, Road and Track and Automobile magazines seem to have gone to "impressions" and general interest automotive articles. When my current subscription for these two runs out, I will not be renewing.

I've subscribed to C&D and R&T since their(and their predecessors) inception and both used to be good sources of comparison info. I've bought cars based on their comparos--to my regret in the case of an '84 Z51 C4 Corvette. Alas, R&T moved it's editorial offices to New York City to the detriment of my interest in the magazine's content. A number of years ago, I dismissed Motor Trend as a source of objective reporting because of what I saw as a strong Detroit bias.

Of late, however, I think it's pretty good. All in all, I've always regarded the car mags as a useful data point in my purchasing decisions and the opinions I have shared with other people that have asked for my opinion about various cars. This has been reinforced, over the years, when the cars I've had direct experience with have jibed with the opinions in the car mags. One direct example has been with the Car mags universal praise of the Alfa Guilia, initially, accompanied with their universal caution about reliability. The long-term tests of the QF seem to be bearing out those reservations and validate my decision to not leap on that particular horse.

So, I read the Mags with great interest (except for the articles about the mega-buck supercars) and make them a significant data point in my opinions.
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      08-07-2019, 12:27 PM   #61
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I wonder these car magazine even stay in business, I used to buy them when I get on an airplane because nothing else better to do, now I don't even do that, can't tell you what's the last time I bought a car magazine...
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      08-07-2019, 01:43 PM   #62
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I wonder these car magazine even stay in business, I used to buy them when I get on an airplane because nothing else better to do, now I don't even do that, can't tell you what's the last time I bought a car magazine...
I've not purchased a magazine or book in about a decade. I read extensively, and 100% of all my books are rented for 21 days at a time via the ebook version from my library on my ipad. I did the math the other day, and I save - on average - about $800/yr by not buying books and borrowing via the library instead. Do it all online.
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      08-07-2019, 01:54 PM   #63
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I've driven BMW's almost exclusively for around 20 years now. The M4 I have now is by far my favorite, I don't think BMW has lost their way in the slightest except for some ugly grills and Lexus tail lights. I'm very interested in the C8, but will wait to get another car until I see the next M4. It's the greatest machine I've ever owned.
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      08-07-2019, 03:27 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I wonder these car magazine even stay in business, I used to buy them when I get on an airplane because nothing else better to do, now I don't even do that, can't tell you what's the last time I bought a car magazine...
I've not purchased a magazine or book in about a decade. I read extensively, and 100% of all my books are rented for 21 days at a time via the ebook version from my library on my ipad. I did the math the other day, and I save - on average - about $800/yr by not buying books and borrowing via the library instead. Do it all online.
Not just that, save a ton of space, there are very few books/article/magazine I re read
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      08-07-2019, 03:33 PM   #65
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I wonder these car magazine even stay in business, I used to buy them when I get on an airplane because nothing else better to do, now I don't even do that, can't tell you what's the last time I bought a car magazine...
Doctor and dentists offices, waiting rooms in general, and diehards from the past. Not sure about C&D but a lot of magazines have really shrunk down, with some basically being a brochure at this point.
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      08-08-2019, 07:02 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I wonder these car magazine even stay in business, I used to buy them when I get on an airplane because nothing else better to do, now I don't even do that, can't tell you what's the last time I bought a car magazine...
Doctor and dentists offices, waiting rooms in general, and diehards from the past. Not sure about C&D but a lot of magazines have really shrunk down, with some basically being a brochure at this point.
What really has shrunk is the quality of the writing and objective auto journalism. These rag's articles sound like manufacturer redacted press kits. Look at Motor Trend's COTY award this year video in YT. It just a Hyundai sanctioned press kit. You can easily tell the guy behind the wheel is reading or memorizing from a carefully redacted script.
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