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      08-24-2019, 10:55 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
How about focusing on competitive differentiation? When you are just chasing everyone else, small improvements in either director or just styling start to affect customer decisions. BMW should double down on "the ultimate driving machine". Steal any customer who actually wants to drive rather than just show a badge off. RWD, manual transmissions, best in class steering feel, 50/50 weight, lots of noise and drama. X models with RWD biases and quick autos. Driver focused interiors with fewer distractions. That should be the focus. Otherwise you're so close to Merc/Audi that you'll lose sales easily with small disadvantages.

I cannot fathom why BMW is throwing away the elements that led to its stratospheric in sales. Just to compete on blandess, overstyling.

Better yet, implement that electric turbo pre-charger
https://www.motor1.com/news/28531/bm...-turbocharger/
Totally agree with you on that, day hey spent to much money on other stuff like gesture control. Lol

I really care less for that because I never use it. I can change volume on steering wheel much quicker. It's just waist of R&D it could go in more useful areas.
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      08-24-2019, 11:53 AM   #178
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Totally agree with you on that, day hey spent to much money on other stuff like gesture control. Lol

I really care less for that because I never use it. I can change volume on steering wheel much quicker. It's just waist of R&D it could go in more useful areas.
Any of the sales resp I talk to so far have not liked the gesture control based on room for error, etc. I do like the 'draw on the selection knob' feature - I was told it originated for the Chinese market due to character complexity (language).
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      08-24-2019, 04:23 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
How about focusing on competitive differentiation? When you are just chasing everyone else, small improvements in either director or just styling start to affect customer decisions. BMW should double down on "the ultimate driving machine". Steal any customer who actually wants to drive rather than just show a badge off. RWD, manual transmissions, best in class steering feel, 50/50 weight, lots of noise and drama. X models with RWD biases and quick autos. Driver focused interiors with fewer distractions. That should be the focus. Otherwise you're so close to Merc/Audi that you'll lose sales easily with small disadvantages.
If they did, BMW would likely lose sales to Audi and Merc. There are so many comparisons to them both, even on this very forum... Audi "do this better", Merc "do that better", type comments. Luxuries, onboard tech', tech' integration and the like, are what folks want today, including the typical BMW driver.

As I mentioned yesterday (in the other topic), there seems to be more interest in how Carplay integrates, than driving dynamics, when reviewing the latest BMWs. And that is on here, a BMW enthusiast forum.

I see BMW going back to the "BMW of old" would, without some clever innovations we are unaware of, be company suicide.
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      08-24-2019, 06:49 PM   #180
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Of course bmw’s current customers don’t care about how the cars drive. If they did, they wouldn’t be driving modern bmws.

That doesn’t mean that a customer that does care no longer exists.
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      08-25-2019, 03:18 AM   #181
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Of course bmw’s current customers don’t care about how the cars drive. If they did, they wouldn’t be driving modern bmws.

That doesn’t mean that a customer that does care no longer exists.
What should we be driving instead? Here in the UK the BMW still rates as a good car. G20 brings the model back to the top of the pack, straight away.

Take the criticism of the F3x models, yes there has been the option in the UK of the Jaguar XE and Alfa Giulia, with slightly better driving dynamics, but do BMW drivers move across for the dynamics? No, not many at all. The BMW offers the total package, even enthusiasts want more than the focus on driving dynamics for daily use.

Doesn't mean we don't care, judgements are made on much more than one aspect of a vehicle by most drivers, these days.
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      08-25-2019, 08:10 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Of course bmw’s current customers don’t care about how the cars drive. If they did, they wouldn’t be driving modern bmws.

That doesn’t mean that a customer that does care no longer exists.
What should we be driving instead? Here in the UK the BMW still rates as a good car. G20 brings the model back to the top of the pack, straight away.

Take the criticism of the F3x models, yes there has been the option in the UK of the Jaguar XE and Alfa Giulia, with slightly better driving dynamics, but do BMW drivers move across for the dynamics? No, not many at all. The BMW offers the total package, even enthusiasts want more than the focus on driving dynamics for daily use.

Doesn't mean we don't care, judgements are made on much more than one aspect of a vehicle by most drivers, these days.
They just need to stop making those giant grills
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      08-25-2019, 10:01 AM   #183
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They just need to stop making those giant grills
Audi appear to have got away with huge grilles. Maybe they do get more sales.
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      08-25-2019, 11:13 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
What should we be driving instead? Here in the UK the BMW still rates as a good car. G20 brings the model back to the top of the pack, straight away.

Take the criticism of the F3x models, yes there has been the option in the UK of the Jaguar XE and Alfa Giulia, with slightly better driving dynamics, but do BMW drivers move across for the dynamics? No, not many at all. The BMW offers the total package, even enthusiasts want more than the focus on driving dynamics for daily use.

Doesn't mean we don't care, judgements are made on much more than one aspect of a vehicle by most drivers, these days.
You should drive whatever makes you happiest in net.

But, the Lexus IS, Caddy ATS, and Alfa Giulia all drive better.

Given the turn in their sales, some people are moving over I'd say.
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      08-25-2019, 01:01 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
What should we be driving instead? Here in the UK the BMW still rates as a good car. G20 brings the model back to the top of the pack, straight away.

Take the criticism of the F3x models, yes there has been the option in the UK of the Jaguar XE and Alfa Giulia, with slightly better driving dynamics, but do BMW drivers move across for the dynamics? No, not many at all. The BMW offers the total package, even enthusiasts want more than the focus on driving dynamics for daily use.

Doesn't mean we don't care, judgements are made on much more than one aspect of a vehicle by most drivers, these days.
You should drive whatever makes you happiest in net.

But, the Lexus IS, Caddy ATS, and Alfa Giulia all drive better.

Given the turn in their sales, some people are moving over I'd say.
I sat down in a new Cadillac ATS yesterday. Car is tiny inside, low roof, poor aft visibility, small back seat, claustrophobic. Interior assembly is decent but questionable materials abound and lots of hard plastic in areas where you expect soft touch goodness.

The CTS suffers from the same issues. Seats nothing to write home about.

Here is the problem with Cadillac: in their quest to pursue and beat the Germans at their game, they forgot who they are and where they came from. See Cadillacs once upon a time where luxurious, comfortable Luxo barges trimmed with the best materials and ladden with the latest automotive advances available at the time. Comfort and presence was the name of the game. Modern day Cadillacs are none of those things. Compromised interiors, so so reliability, horrible resale and cars that have an identity crisis. Most buyers in the segment would not be caught driving one and despite of offering segment leading handling and handling dynamics no one cares about them.
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      08-25-2019, 01:26 PM   #186
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So far BMW's answer to the Tesla model S and Mercedes S class was the oversized grills in the 7 series?
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      08-25-2019, 01:33 PM   #187
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So far BMW's answer to the Tesla model S and Mercedes S class was the oversized grills in the 7 series?
That's a 2016 to 2017 YTD sales
Chart. What are you talking about?
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      08-25-2019, 01:34 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
So far BMW's answer to the Tesla model S and Mercedes S class was the oversized grills in the 7 series?
That's a 2016 to 2017 YTD sales
Chart. What are you talking about?
Yeah, feels like a decade ago.
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      08-25-2019, 01:39 PM   #189
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Yeah, feels like a decade ago.
How bout this one? lol
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      08-25-2019, 02:09 PM   #190
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The Tesla charts are not apples to apples. The first chart from 2017 shows a facelifted Tesla sales vs. BMW and M-B sales of vehicles getting long in the tooth of their lifecycles.

Both charts compare Tesla vehicles with starting MSRPs notably lower than the comparators. Not material comparisons.

Regarding BMW's drivability, it is here and real. My wife's G01 X3 is much more fun to drive than my W166 GLE350 and more fun than a GLC300, or C300 for that matter.

In addition to current BMW models being more fun to drive than relevant comparators, the iDrive system is heads and shoulders better than M-B COMAND. COMAND's successor, MBUX, has had mixed reviews. I have used COMAND but not (yet) MBUX. iDrive is excellent.
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      08-25-2019, 02:24 PM   #191
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The Tesla charts are not apples to apples. The first chart from 2017 shows a facelifted Tesla sales vs. BMW and M-B sales of vehicles getting long in the tooth of their lifecycles.

Both charts compare Tesla vehicles with starting MSRPs notably lower than the comparators. Not material comparisons.

Regarding BMW's drivability, it is here and real. My wife's G01 X3 is much more fun to drive than my W166 GLE350 and more fun than a GLC300, or C300 for that matter.

In addition to current BMW models being more fun to drive than relevant comparators, the iDrive system is heads and shoulders better than M-B COMAND. COMAND's successor, MBUX, has had mixed reviews. I have used COMAND but not (yet) MBUX. iDrive is excellent.
Q2 2019
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      08-25-2019, 04:39 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Of course bmw's current customers don't care about how the cars drive. If they did, they wouldn't be driving modern bmws.

That doesn't mean that a customer that does care no longer exists.
What should we be driving instead? Here in the UK the BMW still rates as a good car. G20 brings the model back to the top of the pack, straight away.

Take the criticism of the F3x models, yes there has been the option in the UK of the Jaguar XE and Alfa Giulia, with slightly better driving dynamics, but do BMW drivers move across for the dynamics? No, not many at all. The BMW offers the total package, even enthusiasts want more than the focus on driving dynamics for daily use.

Doesn't mean we don't care, judgements are made on much more than one aspect of a vehicle by most drivers, these days.
They just need to stop making those giant grills
Tell me about, the 4 series gone look
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      08-26-2019, 12:29 PM   #193
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I take statistical reporting with a grain of salt when it is reported by places like cleantechnica, EV, teslarati etc... One can manipulate datasets to serve their agenda.

I must wonder how many folks will consider an EV if the government grants stop. I remembered Elon Musk threatened to sue the government of Ontario because the province did not want to continue with the grants.

It's often not about quantity of inventory pushed, but profit per product. Based on investment calls, I think Tesla is not making a whole lot if at all.

Anyway I digressed. The current BMW narrative is all about dastardly large obnoxious grille and lame idrive gestures. If I want to move my hands around, I'd sign-up for Tai-chi.
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      08-26-2019, 07:01 PM   #194
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I take statistical reporting with a grain of salt when it is reported by places like cleantechnica, EV, teslarati etc... One can manipulate datasets to serve their agenda.

I must wonder how many folks will consider an EV if the government grants stop. I remembered Elon Musk threatened to sue the government of Ontario because the province did not want to continue with the grants.

It's often not about quantity of inventory pushed, but profit per product. Based on investment calls, I think Tesla is not making a whole lot if at all.

Anyway I digressed. The current BMW narrative is all about dastardly large obnoxious grille and lame idrive gestures. If I want to move my hands around, I'd sign-up for Tai-chi.
I think government will decide to keep tax credit to support the transition
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      08-27-2019, 08:48 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
If they did, BMW would likely lose sales to Audi and Merc. There are so many comparisons to them both, even on this very forum... Audi "do this better", Merc "do that better", type comments. Luxuries, onboard tech', tech' integration and the like, are what folks want today, including the typical BMW driver.

As I mentioned yesterday (in the other topic), there seems to be more interest in how Carplay integrates, than driving dynamics, when reviewing the latest BMWs. And that is on here, a BMW enthusiast forum.

I see BMW going back to the "BMW of old" would, without some clever innovations we are unaware of, be company suicide.
I disagree because right now the space is so damn crowded. I believe BMW isn't stealing Merc/Audi customers, they are stealing Hyundai/Lexus/Toyota customers because they are only marginally more expensive and have a nicer badge. In the long run the lack of quality will reveal itself and the brand will get dumped. At least at one point you could say that BMW always had the sportiest feeling generic SUVs and non-M models. Now they're soft and boring.
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      08-27-2019, 11:26 AM   #196
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I disagree because right now the space is so damn crowded. I believe BMW isn't stealing Merc/Audi customers, they are stealing Hyundai/Lexus/Toyota customers because they are only marginally more expensive and have a nicer badge. In the long run the lack of quality will reveal itself and the brand will get dumped. At least at one point you could say that BMW always had the sportiest feeling generic SUVs and non-M models. Now they're soft and boring.
I was answering your comment on BMW...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
….BMW should double down on "the ultimate driving machine". Steal any customer who actually wants to drive rather than just show a badge off. RWD, manual transmissions, best in class steering feel, 50/50 weight, lots of noise and drama.
Do you really think there are enough customers out there wanting the more hardcore vehicle these days? Enough to turn the clock backwards for BMW?

I have my doubts. When you read some of the customer reviews and how they felt BMW models, (of a couple generations back), rode too hard, lacked comfort, etc. The writing was on the wall, for BMW to soften the cars. I see it that BMW responded to customer demand. A few vocal enthusiasts and road testers didn't like the new direction. Many users see an improvement in what they want from BMW. Now we see such things as the infotainment system, often being the deciding factor of what brand to get into. I see a changed motoring world, changing as we move forward, but not in the direction of the past.

I may be wrong, but reading some of the technical press, which looks at the wider transport market, BMW (or any of the other marques) won't be going back to the good old days. We are in a different era. M-cars are the models, to fill the need of the hard core driver. The M-performance models bridge the divide.
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      08-27-2019, 11:40 AM   #197
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enough? maybe not but I have owned 30+ bmw, my first in 1998. I still own a 135i, 335i, x5d, and a z4. (selling 335i, bought another 135i friday night)

My wife wanted a new fun car a couple of months ago. We just bought our first new toyota, a 86 it is her sportscar.
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      08-27-2019, 11:58 AM   #198
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I was answering your comment on BMW...



Do you really think there are enough customers out there wanting the more hardcore vehicle these days? Enough to turn the clock backwards for BMW?

I have my doubts. When you read some of the customer reviews and how they felt BMW models, (of a couple generations back), rode too hard, lacked comfort, etc. The writing was on the wall, for BMW to soften the cars. I see it that BMW responded to customer demand. A few vocal enthusiasts and road testers didn't like the new direction. Many users see an improvement in what they want from BMW. Now we see such things as the infotainment system, often being the deciding factor of what brand to get into. I see a changed motoring world, changing as we move forward, but not in the direction of the past.

I may be wrong, but reading some of the technical press, which looks at the wider transport market, BMW (or any of the other marques) won't be going back to the good old days. We are in a different era. M-cars are the models, to fill the need of the hard core driver. The M-performance models bridge the divide.
I don't really understand why you're so convinced that people don't care about how cars drive anymore.
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