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      08-23-2019, 12:26 PM   #155
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point is more about people were complain about other things (that has nothing to do with driving enjoyment) rather than driving dynamics
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      08-23-2019, 12:35 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Cost would absolutely go through the roof with this idea.
Why can they do it on a $44,000 i3 but not a $50,000 340i?

So far, EV drivetrains are more expensive to produce than ICE drivetrains. i3 suspension and braking componentry are pretty identical to normal BMWs, i3 electronics are standard BMW parts, i3 wheels are more expensive to produce than BMW's normal wheels.

What's the math that makes the possible on an i3 but not on a 3 series?

Last edited by Obioban; 08-23-2019 at 12:47 PM..
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      08-23-2019, 01:05 PM   #157
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In the late '60s and '70s, I had friends/acquaintances who had Porche's and BMW's.

One acquaintance had a Porche, and that was quite a car, but you just about had to be poured into it to fit. There wasn't much more inside of it besides a radio, heater, and seats. But he worked on a pit crew for some racing team, so I think I understand why it was the car for him.

A friend had a 2002tii. It was about as spartan an inside as you could imagine.

Even then and certainly not today, I could not even imagine going on any trip with either those or using one as a daily driver.

A few years ago when we went to replace our SUV, we figured what the heck let's check out BMW. I had no idea what models BMW had but had images in my mind of a couple of trips I had in that 2002tii.

We looked at the X3 and liked it. Then the dealer told us it was made in SPARTANburg and visions of the trips I took in that 2002ii popped int my brain. But we got the X3 and now have replaced it with an X5.

Of course, those '60s/'70s BMW's connected the driver directly to the engine, transmission, and road; but not much else. I think that most of BMW's current customer base would not even consider a BMW if they were still in that '60s/'70s design frame of mind; even the performance-oriented ones.
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      08-23-2019, 01:21 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Why can they do it on a $44,000 i3 but not a $50,000 340i?

So far, EV drivetrains are more expensive to produce than ICE drivetrains. i3 suspension and braking componentry are pretty identical to normal BMWs, i3 electronics are standard BMW parts, i3 wheels are more expensive to produce than BMW's normal wheels.

What's the math that makes the possible on an i3 but not on a 3 series?
Here's a few reasons I would say it's not doable, in no particular order:

1) Industrialization: How many chassis can they build out of CF vs aluminum and steel? Can a plant even handle the demand? The i3 and i8 are a drop in the bucket compared to the 3 Series. And that doesn't even count the other 35UP cars. So are you changing all of them to CF monocoque?

Stamping sheet metal parts vs laying down CF are 2 entirely different worlds.

2) Profit: I'm willing to bet that BMW pretty much barely broke even with the i3. Not the case with a 3er

To me, the little i3 should be compared to something closer to maybe a 1er or 2er in terms of size, base model vs base model. i3 starts at 44k and 230i starts at 34k. That's closer to a 10k swing the other way vs an M340i.

3) Repairs: Are body shops capable of repairing that many CF cars?

Just a few thoughts on top of my head. I'm sure there's more.
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      08-23-2019, 01:37 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Here's a few reasons I would say it's not doable, in no particular order:

1) Industrialization: How many chassis can they build out of CF vs aluminum and steel? Can a plant even handle the demand? The i3 and i8 are a drop in the bucket compared to the 3 Series. And that doesn't even count the other 35UP cars. So are you changing all of them to CF monocoque?

Stamping sheet metal parts vs laying down CF are 2 entirely different worlds.

2) Profit: I'm willing to bet that BMW pretty much barely broke even with the i3. Not the case with a 3er

To me, the little i3 should be compared to something closer to maybe a 1er or 2er in terms of size, base model vs base model. i3 starts at 44k and 230i starts at 34k. That's closer to a 10k swing the other way vs an M340i.

3) Repairs: Are body shops capable of repairing that many CF cars?

Just a few thoughts on top of my head. I'm sure there's more.
1) If they can do it profitably at current scale (~35,000 cars per year currently IIRC), they could make more of the same factory design to make more cars profitably.

2) Per BMW, the i3 has been profitable from day 1.

Quote:
According to the German automaker, the BW i3 was conceived to be a profit-maker. BMW says that it won't lose a penny on the i3.

The Wall Street Journal quotes BMW global sales and marketing chief, Ian Robertson, as saying that the i3 will be "profitable from Day One on each vehicle it made."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001...35543525172364

I would assume it wasn't hugely profitable at the beginning, but annual sales have more than doubled since then. I'd assume economies of scale would have it profitable by now.

Size: the i3 is call the i3 because it has the space of a 3 series inside. I don't see any reason for that to change with a gas car, as the CFRP monocoque is the passenger cell-- which would be the same size for a 3 series.

3) On the i3, most crashes of the magnitude that are repairable on steel cars are absorbed by the easily replaceable honeycomb crash absorbing structure, leaving the CFRP monocoque undamaged.



Not that this has stopped them in the past-- alu chassis are also difficult for body shops to repair, but the e60 was alu.
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      08-23-2019, 02:06 PM   #160
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If BMW can do CF on main stream car it would definitely be game changer, BMW would then be the lightest in the segment across the range, though even 7 series only have a "carbon core" (and while 5/7 are close to the light end in its class, not really that light to start with...), so would imagine it's just not that easy
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      08-23-2019, 02:21 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
If BMW can do CF on main stream car it would definitely be game changer, BMW would then be the lightest in the segment across the range, though even 7 series only have a "carbon core" (and while 5/7 are close to the light end in its class, not really that light to start with...), so would imagine it's just not that easy
BMW has been making a CFRP monocoque mainstream car since 2014.

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      08-23-2019, 03:04 PM   #162
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BMW is not doing well because alot of folks subscribe to the Temple of Tesla and worship at the altar of Lord Elon.
BMW can't get twit at producing a proper electric sports sedan to compete. The 330e is such a joke in comparison. BMW is truly behind the curve on this one this time.
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      08-23-2019, 03:06 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
BMW is not doing well because alot of folks subscribe to the Temple of Tesla and worship at the altar of Lord Elon.
BMW can't get twit at producing a proper electric sports sedan to compete. The 330e is such a joke in comparison. BMW is truly behind the curve on this one this time.
So are you also one of hi sheep, eh, worshippers?
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      08-23-2019, 03:06 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
If BMW can do CF on main stream car it would definitely be game changer, BMW would then be the lightest in the segment across the range, though even 7 series only have a "carbon core" (and while 5/7 are close to the light end in its class, not really that light to start with...), so would imagine it's just not that easy
BMW has been making a CFRP monocoque mainstream car since 2014.

Like 3/5/7 main stream...
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      08-23-2019, 03:34 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The problem for BMW of late is that BMWs in general especially the lower rung models are NOT A lot more car. Just saying
+1.
There used to be a larger gulf between say an Accord/Camry being FWD to that of a BMW or MB being RWD. People equated RWD as sporty higher end marque. The democratization of automotive technologies enabled basic cars to offer similar features than that of a luxury brand. Just look at HIDs, LCD displays, back-up cameras etc. Those used to be reserved for the expensive cars. When one sees a HID vehicle you think BWM, Lexus, Audi etc. Those angel-light LEDs is distinctive BMW signature. Now every car mfg offers their own LED designs. The angel-lights are just another "salmon in the stream".

But wait! BMW has .... glowing grilles. That's the new 'angel light' replacement.
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      08-23-2019, 03:41 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The problem for BMW of late is that BMWs in general especially the lower rung models are NOT A lot more car. Just saying
+1.
There used to be a larger gulf between say an Accord/Camry being FWD to that of a BMW or MB being RWD. People equated RWD as sporty higher end marque. The democratization of automotive technologies enabled basic cars to offer similar features than that of a luxury brand. Just look at HIDs, LCD displays, back-up cameras etc. Those used to be reserved for the expensive cars. When one sees a HID vehicle you think BWM, Lexus, Audi etc. Those angel-light LEDs is distinctive BMW signature. Now every car mfg offers their own LED designs. The angel-lights are just another "salmon in the stream".

But wait! BMW has .... glowing grilles. That's the new 'angel light' replacement.
Glowing grill? WTF is that?

I haven't been paying attention to anything lately but those terrible G8x renderings.
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      08-23-2019, 03:54 PM   #167
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You missed my point. Those cars were not Retro versions of the E30. The 5th gen '05 Mustang looked like correct progression of the design from the 1st generation.
I hear you. There was a ton of marketing by BMW that promoted the 135i's design as being a progression of the 2002. They even made a "tii" version of the 135i that never made it to market. There's an interview with the designer where he talks a lot about the inspiration in the upright grill that has slats that actually angle backwards, the short, stocky design with the upright cabin, the topline that wraps around the whole car, etc.

I agree that it isn't as retro as a 5th get Mustang or current Challenger, but BMW apparently was going for a modern interpretation of the 2002. Granted, if they gave the 135i singular round headlights, I think that would have sold the concept much more.

Here's a pic of a local 2002 with my 135i in the background, for a fun comparison:
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      08-23-2019, 04:36 PM   #168
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Discussing the good ole days and walking to school 6 miles in the snow uphill both ways just makes you look old and feel old.

At least computer people aren’t pining for 286 computers because the experience was “pure”.

We waited 10 minutes for a game to load, and we loved it!!
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      08-23-2019, 04:57 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by billnchristy View Post
Discussing the good ole days and walking to school 6 miles in the snow uphill both ways just makes you look old and feel old.

At least computer people aren’t pining for 286 computers because the experience was “pure”.

We waited 10 minutes for a game to load, and we loved it!!
This isn't solely about outdated digital technology. It's about a sea change type of shift from analog to digital, and there's a reason that there's still an enthusiast fanbase of analog things, from cars to watches to music.

While I certainly can appreciate some music made with a keytar, I don't see the keytar as a direct guitar replacement. We're seeing the same thing with cars. "Keytar" type cars are going to be fine for the majority of buyers, but some enthusiasts may want to stick with a six-string. The question is, who is going to keep making cars for these enthusiasts? I guess it would be Lotus, if we're talking only sports cars, but I'm not sure who it will be for more pragmatic, sporty cars. That kind of car may simply die off.
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      08-23-2019, 05:23 PM   #170
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Wrong! There are Commodore 64 collectors out there much like e30 collectors who are stuck with bell-bottoms and infatuated with Olivia Newton John.
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      08-23-2019, 05:25 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Wrong! There are Commodore 64 collectors out there much like e30 collectors who are stuck with bell-bottoms and infatuated with Olivia Newton John.
Hey, even my seven year old son is infatuated with Olivia Newton John!!
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      08-23-2019, 05:25 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billnchristy View Post
Discussing the good ole days and walking to school 6 miles in the snow uphill both ways just makes you look old and feel old.

At least computer people aren’t pining for 286 computers because the experience was “pure”.

We waited 10 minutes for a game to load, and we loved it!!
If you've got an Xbox one 10 minutes sounds like a dream!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
It's time BMW spin off ///M as its own brand, and concentrate on making cars in that specific brand to appeal to enthusiasts, and leave the BMW brand to be the German "Toyota."
Where have you been? BMW M GmbH is already a separate subsidiary of BMW AG and has its own CEO.
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      08-23-2019, 07:22 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The problem for BMW of late is that BMWs in general especially the lower rung models are NOT A lot more car. Just saying
+1.
There used to be a larger gulf between say an Accord/Camry being FWD to that of a BMW or MB being RWD. People equated RWD as sporty higher end marque. The democratization of automotive technologies enabled basic cars to offer similar features than that of a luxury brand. Just look at HIDs, LCD displays, back-up cameras etc. Those used to be reserved for the expensive cars. When one sees a HID vehicle you think BWM, Lexus, Audi etc. Those angel-light LEDs is distinctive BMW signature. Now every car mfg offers their own LED designs. The angel-lights are just another "salmon in the stream".

But wait! BMW has .... glowing grilles. That's the new 'angel light' replacement.
Glowing grill? WTF is that?

I haven't been paying attention to anything lately but those terrible G8x renderings.
You missed the biggest news. Lol
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      08-24-2019, 01:05 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by MarkNewM5COMPETITION View Post
BMW needs to add much more features and options as being standard like Mercedes. I owned the M5 Competition for 7 months and couldn't connect with the car. Sold it, got the S560 2019, and instantly connected with it. The features are 1,000 times better and more.. atleast in my experience and opinion. Even if it's considered as a "sports" sedan.
Which features?

I am going from my 2014 C300 to a 2020 530e primarily because BMW seems to be doing it better. Maybe it is a younger buyer focusing on technology distinction?

The MB E300 was most comparable (although non-hybrid) and I balked at the price of the car with comparable options to BMW being a great deal more expensive. On top of MB still struggling on the tech side. MBUX is still MIA on the C and E classes. And MBUX still hasn't caught up to iDrive. I didn't see a standard feature on MB that wasn't likewise standard at BMW.

MB has a classier interior though and my '14 has been rock solid.
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      08-24-2019, 08:30 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkNewM5COMPETITION View Post
BMW needs to add much more features and options as being standard like Mercedes. I owned the M5 Competition for 7 months and couldn't connect with the car. Sold it, got the S560 2019, and instantly connected with it. The features are 1,000 times better and more.. atleast in my experience and opinion. Even if it's considered as a "sports" sedan.
Which features?

I am going from my 2014 C300 to a 2020 530e primarily because BMW seems to be doing it better. Maybe it is a younger buyer focusing on technology distinction?

The MB E300 was most comparable (although non-hybrid) and I balked at the price of the car with comparable options to BMW being a great deal more expensive. On top of MB still struggling on the tech side. MBUX is still MIA on the C and E classes. And MBUX still hasn't caught up to iDrive. I didn't see a standard feature on MB that wasn't likewise standard at BMW.

MB has a classier interior though and my '14 has been rock solid.
From experience BMW was always better for me, specifically performance. The I drive is so much better too
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      08-24-2019, 10:45 AM   #176
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How about focusing on competitive differentiation? When you are just chasing everyone else, small improvements in either direction or just styling start to affect customer decisions. BMW should double down on "the ultimate driving machine". Steal any customer who actually wants to drive rather than just show a badge off. RWD, manual transmissions, best in class steering feel, 50/50 weight, lots of noise and drama. X models with RWD biases and quick autos. Driver focused interiors with fewer distractions. That should be the focus. Otherwise you're so close to Merc/Audi that you'll lose sales easily with small disadvantages.

I cannot fathom why BMW is throwing away the elements that led to its stratospheric success in sales. Just to compete on blandess, overstyling.

Better yet, implement that electric turbo pre-charger
https://www.motor1.com/news/28531/bm...-turbocharger/
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