[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yes, but they're losing out alot on the corners. So they should consider trading some of that off for down force to aide corner performance. Obviously I could be completely wrong and the downforce gained isn't great enough to outweigh the top speed lost. But they do have the speed to play with and Ferrari is so far away from them in terms of cornering speed.

A lot of other things come into play with more wing, tyre wear is a factor also PU works harder and in the Miami heat means more temp.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by F87source

It's clear Mercedes is the team pushing innovations, what have redbull or others done outside the box these past few years that no one else has done? Or what other things have they pioneered these past few years?

This is a trick question right? As you already gave the answer.
Which car is the one that is not hopping along on all the straights?
Exactly!
(If that isn't innovation, I don't know what is, solving a problem that everyone else struggles with)

Obviously MERC can build fantastic cars, and usually they were the ones that were especially fastest right after the winterstop (the last 10 years or so) and other had to perfect their cars during the racing year, but this year it's the other way round.
That this simultaneously happens with the largest rulechange of the past 10 years and a severe budget- and developmentcuts is probably not a coincidence.

BTW Max probably gained more points by his driving style than lost points. Doddeling along gets you nowhere on an F1 track.
And I wouln't call it aggressive, not if you think back how Senna drove back in the day. Now thàt was what I call aggressive

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

A lot of other things come into play with more wing, tyre wear is a factor also PU works harder and in the Miami heat means more temp.

Actually this isn't true, more downforce means less tire slippage and this means better tire wear.

PU wouldn't work harder if the engine mode isn't switched up, output is capped.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is a trick question right? As you already gave the answer.
Which car is the one that is not hopping along on all the straights?
Exactly!
(If that isn't innovation, I don't know what is, solving a problem that everyone else struggles with)

Obviously MERC can build fantastic cars, and usually they were the ones that were especially fastest right after the winterstop (the last 10 years or so) and other had to perfect their cars during the racing year, but this year it's the other way round.
That this simultaneously happens with the largest rulechange of the past 10 years and a severe budget- and developmentcuts is probably not a coincidence.

BTW Max probably gained more points by his driving style than lost points. Doddeling along gets you nowhere on an F1 track.
And I wouln't call it aggressive, not if you think back how Senna drove back in the day. Now thàt was what I call aggressive

Well it's design philosophy that dictates porpoising, redbull were really smart with their floor design and suspension design to stop porpoising from happening. But that's not a big innovation, because McLaren doesn't porpoise and alpine barely bounce either so it's not ground breaking. The difference is they're fast, but that is to be expected from redbull. So the not porpoising itself isn't an extremely impressive feat, it's the fact that they're quick as well. But still not a major innovation because others have done it. Even if you count this as a major innovation, it would be only a few that redbull have made (and far less than Merc) during the time Mercedes was actually back in the sport.

Now the issue is they're still not faster than Ferrari, so is it really better to have a non proposing car vs. a car that bounces but is faster?



Merc was bound to screw up eventually, no one wins forever. But it doesn't mean they don't make major innovations. Every year Mercedes pulls something crazy out of nowhere: 2020 - DAS, 2021 - squatting suspension and liquid cooled plenum, 2022 - advanced cooling to facilitate zero pods albeit it's struggling. Each of these things were so game changing no one thought to do it before, and it made a pretty big impact. Before that they had the split turbo, wheel cooling, double diffuser in the braum gp days, the most innovative F duct that stalled the front wing and the rear wing in the double drs era, spacer on the wheel weights, pre chamber ignition, tuned throttle bodies etc etc etc.



Yes but his a high risk style that when the pressure is really applied almost costed him the championship last year. He could've wrapped it up early if he learned to live to fight another day instead of having to win every small battle. I'm also not talking about diddling around, I'm talking smooth calm composed and consistent, and thinking before making a move.


Well senna also drove a different era of car, that was very wild compared to how stable today's cars are. You can't really drive today's cars that way, they're too large and way too heavy.

[GuidoK]

Sorry but I don't agree. On pretty much all your points.
IF solving porpoising it's not a big innovation, why can't Merc solve it? Are they stupid?

As far as driver competence, the one that really lost it last year, it's Hamilton.
You know, loosing it in Baku because he left brake magic on...doh!, this is a rookie mistake that doesn't know how the buttons on his car work....
Not winning in Hungary, because he didn't come in for slicks while literally everyone else did...doh!
Had he not made those two stupid mistakes, HAM would have got his 8th title.
And these are interlectual mistakes, not even driving mistakes...
They dwarf Max' mistakes that are pretty much summed up as trying a different line in order to try and overtake the race leader. It's really speculative to say another way would have been more succesful, whereas the Hamilton mistakes.... well they speak for themselves...

Every driver makes a driving mistake now and then, all in the purpose of trying to be faster. Wheter it's Max trying too hard qualifying and hitting the wall, which LEC also managed to do last year in monaco, resulting in not starting, or that he made a mistake under pressure in the race last in Imola. (LEC is just as much of an 'aggressive' driver as Max imho)
But the tactical and intelectual mistakes, that's where real failure points lie.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Sorry but I don't agree. On pretty much all your points.
IF solving porpoising it's not a big innovation, why can't Merc solve it? Are they stupid?

As far as driver competence, the one that really lost it last year, it's Hamilton.
You know, loosing it in Baku because he left brake magic on...doh!, this is a rookie mistake that doesn't know how the buttons on his car work....
Not winning in Hungary, because he didn't come in for slicks while literally everyone else did...doh!
Had he not made those two stupid mistakes, HAM would have got his 8th title.
And these are interlectual mistakes, not even driving mistakes...
They dwarf Max' mistakes that are pretty much summed up as trying a different line in order to try and overtake the race leader. It's really speculative to say another way would have been more succesful, whereas the Hamilton mistakes.... well they speak for themselves...

Every driver makes a driving mistake now and then, all in the purpose of trying to be faster. Wheter it's Max trying too hard qualifying and hitting the wall, which LEC also managed to do last year in monaco, resulting in not starting, or that he made a mistake under pressure in the race last in Imola.
But the tactical and intelectual mistakes, that's where real failure points lie.

It's not a big game changing innovation because it's been replicated. Merc didn't solve it because they weren't able to see it in CFD, if they did they would've. A game changing innovation is thinking outside the box and pushing the regulations to their breaking point, something that isn't easily done. If simulations showed porpoising then a fix is doable, not really thinking outside the box.


Yup Hamilton choked with brake magic, pressure does that it makes you forget to do things, not make you forget how things operate. The pit decisions weren't his call, Merc were afraid he'd get caught up in the pits. But max almost lost it because of his unwillingness to back down, he literally is unwilling to lose an inch and that's not going to be good for long term battles. But here's the other flaw with max, he gets emotional when things don't go his way. Getting time penalties when overtaking Lewis last year off track, repeating the over take on Charles on the first of two drs zones. And arguing with his engineers over not being allowed to push for tire and heating concerns. That's an intellectual short coming, not being able to think of the long game and letting emotions take over.

Lewis isn't perfect but he has 7 titles and the most F1 wins ever. Max still needs to get there and maybe he will but he needs to improve on his emotional side of things and control his agression to have the best chance of getting there. But first he still had to become the greatest redbull driver ever, because right now that's still Sebastian Vettel who in his prime who looked unstoppable.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Actually this isn't true, more downforce means less tire slippage and this means better tire wear.

PU wouldn't work harder if the engine mode isn't switched up, output is capped.

Ferrari have more wing and tyre wear is an issue with them.With the laws of physics more wing is more strain on PU fighting the force hence more wear also more heat given of thus in hot climate.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by F87source

A game changing innovation is thinking outside the box and pushing the regulations to their breaking point,

Like the bending wing from RB last year.

BTW propoising is really easy to solve, just reduce the downforce.
But that's the trick, solving it with the car still being fast.
OF course mclaren and alpine solved it, but it's just that their cars arent fast. And the RB is. So looks like a pretty important innovation. Being fast. Because that's what it's all about.

Originally Posted by F87source

Lewis isn't perfect but he has 7 titles and the most F1 wins ever..

Yes he had the best car for a long long time.
And it shows now.

Originally Posted by F87source

And arguing with his engineers over not being allowed to push for tire and heating concerns. That's an intellectual short coming, not being able to think of the long game and letting emotions take over.

This is not an example of emotions taking ove, it's an example that the driver was right and the engineers not.
If there's one point that both RB and MAx outclass MERC/HAM it's on the intellectual point.
MERC and HAM are notorious for constantly making the wrong decisions when they need to be made in the heat of the battle. Wrong tyres, not coming in for tyres, forgetting to set your car to the right parameters (brake magic) etc etc. They constantly make those mistakes and don't seem to learn from them. That is by far their weakest point. Strategic thinking in short timespans.
And that's pretty much RB's strongest point. Max has an uncanny predisposition to think ahead and feel what is the right decision to make. Knowing when to come in or not etc. Like last year in sochi for example, or of course last year abu dhabi.

[///M Power-Belgium]

The quality of the Miami track asphalt layer is really bad ..

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The quality of the Miami track asphalt layer is really bad ..

Hopefully they'll give the track a good sweep in it's entirety picking up all the small stones lying about there.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Hopefully they'll give the track a good sweep in it's entirety picking up all the small stones lying about there.

Yeah . Let's hope so , because a lot of drivers weren't happy with that asphalt layer ..

Checo said : We shouldn't drive on it !

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yeah . Let's hope so , because a lot of drivers weren't happy with that asphalt layer ..

Checo said : We shouldn't drive on it !

It's probably because some of the track is a car park.

[DrFerry]

Do you know what these occult symbols mean? Everything woke turns to sh1t..
.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Do you know what these occult symbols mean? Everything woke turns to sh1t..
.

That's like sticking one finger up to fia rules

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

That's like sticking one finger up to fia rules

So the FIA has rules about jewelry but not about displaying satanic symbols?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

It's probably because some of the track is a car park.

Yeah . The asphalt top layer got many quick repairs with different kinds of asphalt .
Looks like they just threw some asphalt with a 'shovel to fill the big holes !

Which results in smooth and rough surfaces .Yesterday I heard that MAX lost his last fast lap during QF-3 on such a tricky surface..

The Miami track : It is what it is , but the show must go on !

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

So the FIA has rules about jewelry but not about displaying satanic symbols?

Last year there was an article about the meaning about HAM's tattoos .
Experts said : Some of the symbols are used in Voodoo as well...

As I'm not religious ,I have no idea , but I know the 5H1T is really evil !

HAM would say : I don't know man ....

[FrankMstein]

Is this "woke" enough for you DrFerry?

[///M Power-Belgium]

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Surely RB slimmer is better and less stress on PU, Ferrari needs a diet

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

So the FIA has rules about jewelry but not about displaying satanic symbols?

I have a feeling Ben S should be doing something about that soon, as M-Power says that is evil stuff that wishes harm on some..then on who.,re the ''Damien'' films.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Is this "woke" enough for you DrFerry?

Maybe he had a message 'do it or else'