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      06-26-2022, 11:27 PM   #1
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Lightbulb BMW's true Level 3 autonomous driving system "Personal Pilot" coming late 2023

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From recent update in the future models thread:

The first true Level 3 autonomous driving system called "Personal Pilot" will be available on select G6x and G70 models in Europe and China starting in late 2023 on G70 and July 2024 on G6x.

I'm not seeing this functionality on US cars yet.
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      06-27-2022, 02:02 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
From recent update in the future models thread:

The first true Level 3 autonomous driving system called "Personal Pilot" will be available on select G6x and G70 models in Europe and China starting in late 2023 on G70 and July 2024 on G6x.

I'm not seeing this functionality on US cars yet.
Not on iX?
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      06-27-2022, 02:03 PM   #3
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I'm guessing regulatory approval it's what's holding this back from the US market
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      06-27-2022, 02:03 PM   #4
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Why not USA? Regulations?
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      06-27-2022, 02:08 PM   #5
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You all should know how long these things take to come to the US due to regulations. The fact that Tesla been doing it for years is quite a miracle.
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      06-27-2022, 02:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx View Post
Why not USA? Regulations?
As someone that is versed in automotive safety; there is no regulatory framework to identify fault when an accident happens under autonomous vehicle control.

Tesla is self insured.
Tesla allegedly has taken and approach of disengaging their system right before an accident so they can blame human error. There is now a d ongoing investigation. But anyway...

BMW has filed for L3 approval in the US.
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      06-27-2022, 02:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
As someone that is versed in automotive safety; there is no regulatory framework to identify fault when an accident happens under autonomous vehicle control.

Tesla is self insured.
Tesla allegedly has taken and approach of disengaging their system right before an accident so they can blame human error. There is now a d ongoing investigation. But anyway...

BMW has filed for L3 approval in the US.
What do you think of Cruise AV? I know its a bit different since its not an owned car and the HW itself is very expensive, but the fact a company is running cars and able to charge for in a crazy driving city like SF is pretty impressive.


https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/24/cr...ng-passengers/
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      06-27-2022, 02:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFirstBimmerSoCal View Post
What do you think of Cruise AV? I know its a bit different since its not an owned car and the HW itself is very expensive, but the fact a company is running cars and able to charge for in a crazy driving city like SF is pretty impressive.


https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/24/cruises-driverless-autonomous-cars-start-giving-rides-to-paying-passengers/
Cruise is impressive and is 80% owned by GM.
The Chevy Bolt EUV now offers GM SuperCruise tech. It's the least expensive car that I know of that has "hands off" at highway speeds.

Cruise has a driverless taxi permit and Tesla doesn't. I guess Tesla can't really be the leader in autonomous vehicle tech.
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      06-27-2022, 02:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
As someone that is versed in automotive safety; there is no regulatory framework to identify fault when an accident happens under autonomous vehicle control.

Tesla is self insured.
Tesla allegedly has taken and approach of disengaging their system right before an accident so they can blame human error. There is now a d ongoing investigation. But anyway...

BMW has filed for L3 approval in the US.
I guess they will handle it like Mercedes is doing it, take the liability while the system is active. Mercedes beat BMW for this one as I mentioned in another post: https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?t=1920742. And Teslas System is L2 anyway, so not comparable at all (and imo worse than Mercedes'/Audis/BMWs current offering of driver assistance systems, the only difference is its unlocked in all situations which makes it even worse).

As a warning for people hoping to have an almost level 4 experience with no interaction needed on the highway, I don't think that will happen. Mercedes' solution only works in traffic jams up to 40mph and from what I've heard BMW is aiming for 50mph.
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      06-27-2022, 02:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
I guess they will handle it like Mercedes is doing it, take the liability while the system is active. Mercedes beat BMW for this one as I mentioned in another post: https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?t=1920742. And Teslas System is L2 anyway, so not comparable at all (and imo worse than Mercedes'/Audis/BMWs current offering of driver assistance systems, the only difference is its unlocked in all situations which makes it even worse).

As a warning for people hoping to have an almost level 4 experience with no interaction needed on the highway, I don't think that will happen. Mercedes' solution only works in traffic jams up to 40mph and from what I've heard BMW is aiming for 50mph.
I agree, until there is a defined regulatory framework, manufacturers will indemnify while the system is active. Hopefully they do do what Tesla is allegedly doing and once a crash is immenent; deactivate and cla it was the driver. NHTSA has an open case against Tesla and this allegation.

Tesla's system is flawed from the word go. It has vision only and it's a total of eight cameras; two on each side, three front facing and one rear. All cameras are needed for system functionality and they are non redundant. Tesla will never be able to offer hands off driving.

BMW, Mercedes, GM/Cruise, Ford, Lucid, Fisker and others do or will offer some soft of hands free ADAS this year.

Mercedes is showing Level 4 using Nvidia platform. It's in a S class equivalent offered MY2024.
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      06-27-2022, 03:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I agree, until there is a defined regulatory framework, manufacturers will indemnify while the system is active. Hopefully they do do what Tesla is allegedly doing and once a crash is immenent; deactivate and cla it was the driver. NHTSA has an open case against Tesla and this allegation.

Tesla's system is flawed from the word go. It has vision only and it's a total of eight cameras; two on each side, three front facing and one rear. All cameras are needed for system functionality and they are non redundant. Tesla will never be able to offer hands off driving.

BMW, Mercedes, GM/Cruise, Ford, Lucid, Fisker and others do or will offer some soft of hands free ADAS this year.

Mercedes is showing Level 4 using Nvidia platform. It's in a S class equivalent offered MY2024.
The idea that vision only systems are inadequate for full self driving is BS. Humans only have two eyes and IF they follow all rules/regulations would have very little risk for accidents. Camera system uses multiple cameras and won't make stupid decisions because its pissed of or tired.
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      06-27-2022, 03:31 PM   #12
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Is this the same as "Motorway Assist" references in Future BMW model info?
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      06-27-2022, 04:05 PM   #13
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Welp! I have BMWs with current "Driver Assist",...and I luv it. For one,...believe it or not, the system actually helps me stay more alert when driving!,...and if the next generation BMW Driver Assist tech is even wayyyy better than current, then I will pause on updating to any new'er BMWs until I see how well the system works,..based on European YouTuber's reviews.

Standing by!
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      06-27-2022, 09:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
The idea that vision only systems are inadequate for full self driving is BS. Humans only have two eyes and IF they follow all rules/regulations would have very little risk for accidents. Camera system uses multiple cameras and won't make stupid decisions because its pissed of or tired.
I can promise you that Tesla's "Vision" cameras and FSD computer are not equivalent to the human brain and our eyes.
Stop drinking the Kool-Aid.
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      06-27-2022, 10:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragzon View Post
I can promise you that Tesla's "Vision" cameras and FSD computer are not equivalent to the human brain and our eyes.
Stop drinking the Kool-Aid.
Care to elaborate in a white paper? Didn't know you had a phd in deep learning models and computer vision.
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      06-27-2022, 11:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx View Post
Why not USA? Regulations?
Probably more like…WAAAAAYYYYY too many lawyers!!!
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      06-27-2022, 11:29 PM   #17
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Tesla’s goal from the beginning (part of the master plan) was to become 10x safer than a human.. they have pretty much achieved that. They did have some other lofty goals like robotaxi and full autonomy and they will continue to work toward that - but again, 10x safer than a human - not PERFECT.

Hardware wise, a tesla has everything it needs to be 10x safer than a human at driving, and can probably go well beyond that with further software improvements which they are doing as the mileage racks up from the ever growing fleet. A lot of people like to claim you need radar, sonar, lidar, 64 cameras.. but nope, they have all that is required for every possible legal driving scenario. Radar is inferior to cameras but inexperienced people keep thinking it’s needed because it sounds cool and others have it. Tesla ditched it because it added complexity and had zero benefits. They did say that if someone made a high-res and long distance radar they would implement it in future models, but that tech doesn’t exist yet. For some reason, the majority think that self-driving means “never ever ever makes a mistake or gets into an accident” that’s not at all accurate or reasonable to assume…. It will get in accidents, just not as often as humans.

As a human, you only have eyes… no radar in your skull… and clearly we are L4 autonomous . So not sure why a vehicle would need more than a human to be as good as a human. Sure, adding way more would add redundancy and maybe make it better than a human… but not really needed. Not to mention that cameras & good software don’t get distracted which attributes to a significant amount of all accidents.

From a development & AI training perspective, you need a base. there is more value gained from making a camera-only based system work and investing in maximizing existing hardware.. then down the road adding more tech would be major improvements for little effort… it’s the base that you need to build out first and that has to be camera. So Tesla is taking the right approach, but like most critics & skeptics - they will not believe it until well after they have seen it.

The others are playing catch-up and the trajectory of Tesla is significantly more, so the gap is getting bigger, not smaller. The risks they are taking now with beta FSD are going to pay off huge for them by cutting years and years off the timeline.

Either way - all exciting times for safety for personal transportation- the less stressful, safer and more relaxing a ride can be the better off we all are.

Last edited by kring; 06-27-2022 at 11:36 PM..
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      06-28-2022, 02:15 AM   #18
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I think most people do not realise that fully reliable self driving cars will not be possible until special roads and highways are designed for them and human driving is banned on those roads.

The promise that a computer will be able to react as a human in mixed traffic is a fallacy and even naive thinking. That's just not possible.

It's like the old belief that human language translators will be replaced by automatic translator algorithms or that we will never have to learn languages because computers will translate them for us. That just didn't happen and it won't happen any time soon or during our lives.

On the other hand, in the same way that an entire rail network system could be made to run without train drivers given enough investment and resources, a set of interconnected roads can be made operable by autonomous cars in controlled and restrained conditions. Also notice that autonomous rail systems already exist but they definitely do not put human drivers in the mix.

So again, no mater what technology is applied or used, it's either one or the other, but not both at the same time like Tesla wants us to believe
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      06-28-2022, 02:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixbmwlife View Post
You all should know how long these things take to come to the US due to regulations. The fact that Tesla been doing it for years is quite a miracle.
Tesla isn't Level 3. 2+ at best and their FSD is in beta whereas this is ready for prime time and the manufacturer assume liability.
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      06-28-2022, 02:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sward View Post
Not on iX?
Motorway assistant announced from 03/23.

If its the same as for i7, will be Level 3 as well :
https://www.bosshunting.com.au/motor...-bmw-7-series/
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      06-28-2022, 08:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sward View Post
Not on iX?
Motorway assistant announced from 03/23.

If its the same as for i7, will be Level 3 as well :
https://www.bosshunting.com.au/motor...-bmw-7-series/
Motorway assistant is not level 3, it is only hands free at highway speeds up to 85mph. It is an extension of the current "traffic jam assistant" which is limited to hands free up to 40mph.
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      06-28-2022, 01:22 PM   #22
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Tesla owner here. My wife's car is 'Level 2' in ever sense of that designation. The car loves dumping auto pilot anytime a semi-truck starts to encroach into your lane. Even on a wide open highway the sun will induce phantom braking. It miss-judges turns sometimes and goes way too fast into them (probably safe algorithm wise, but uncomfortable for humans). It's junk. Largely useless for anything other than a smarter cruise control.

I'm sorry BMW. But I just don't believe you. Tesla has had not only a big head start, but also access to MASSIVE amounts of REAL WORLD, REAL SCENARIO DATA. Not with test pilots or BMW employees in predictable environments...but with Joe Schmo on every street.

The only way I see BMW pulling off a true Level 3 is if they GEO restrict it's usage to specific cities/towns/regions that they've focused on. Even then you'd have to assume that BMWs software engineers are an order of magnitude more talented than Tesla's.
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