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      01-06-2020, 10:17 AM   #23
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Selling more cars than the competitors doesn’t always mean selling a better vehicle.
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      01-06-2020, 10:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
I just like to change the cars because I love to drive something new.
This has nothing to do with quality
But if MB or Audi or Honda or Hyundai made a car that better fit your needs, why wouldn't you buy it instead of a BMW?

Why automatic loyalty?

I like my 530e and would consider a replacement when the version with the inline 6 comes out BUT if someone made me a better alternative, why wouldn't I buy it?
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      01-06-2020, 10:41 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
Competition should be close again in 2020 as BMW is set to release the 2er Gran Coupe and should finally gain/take sales from a segment they're the last to participate in.
And they don't even have an M3 this year to contribute to overall sales. Their halo performance sedan.
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      01-06-2020, 10:46 AM   #26
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      01-06-2020, 10:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
I just like to change the cars because I love to drive something new.
This has nothing to do with quality
But if MB or Audi or Honda or Hyundai made a car that better fit your needs, why wouldn't you buy it instead of a BMW?

Why automatic loyalty?

I like my 530e and would consider a replacement when the version with the inline 6 comes out BUT if someone made me a better alternative, why wouldn't I buy it?
I am huge ///M fan and already owned 18 BMW


If Merc makes a car that is significantly better them ///M I could consider.

As of now I am staying at ///M
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      01-06-2020, 11:17 AM   #28
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How much of this is related to this
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1680297
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      01-06-2020, 01:01 PM   #29
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Bunch of people around me planing to buy a new BMW next year (including myself), we're gonna crush them next year! ��
Who is "we"? Do you have a financial stake in BMW? Maybe you do, but most us are just customers. Who cares if they sell more or less cars than MB as long as the company stays healthy? Volume is never something you should be "proud" of in a company that you pay. As a consumer, quality should be your top priority in a product.
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      01-06-2020, 04:49 PM   #30
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As long as they make manual transmission cars I will be a buyer.

Kinda disappointed in the soulless steering feel in recent models but they are trying to please the masses not the enthusiasts.

+1 on them keeping their consumers happy (read: bring back the pre-2016 warranty policies on maintenance).
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      01-06-2020, 05:27 PM   #31
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Selling more cars than the competitors doesn’t always mean selling a better vehicle.
No but I guarantee if BMW's sales were decreasing a lot of the posters here that continually state BMW has lost its way would be using lower sales to support their argument.
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      01-06-2020, 06:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
No but I guarantee if BMW's sales were decreasing a lot of the posters here that continually state BMW has lost its way would be using lower sales to support their argument.
I don't say, have never said, that BMW has lost its way.

What I do say is that the only loyalty I owe is to a company that will make a quality, reliable car with features that I want. Whichever company does that best gets my business.

BMW's increasing sales suggests that it knows exactly what it is doing. Just not heading in a direction that I desire.
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      01-06-2020, 06:58 PM   #33
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sales leader and at the same time under investigation for misrepresenting cars on the lot as being sold....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??


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      01-06-2020, 10:26 PM   #34
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I traded in my G01 for a GLC Coupé. 🤷*♂️

I suppose if being on "the winning team" matters then cool.

They're all great vehicles, designed with different priorities in mind.
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      01-06-2020, 11:11 PM   #35
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I just think Mercedes' offerings are pretty blah right now.....especially if you want a driver's car. They were pretty damn hot up until their models that came out over the last 2-3 years, too.

C class....boring (especially versus the new 3).
E class......incredibly boring unless it's an E63 (which are still going to be $500 more per month to lease than the M5)
S class.....on the last year of it's life cycle. S class will always be king but BMW did a great job with 7 series LCI.
CLS class.....boring. Boring AMG models for this car. I mean, the AMG model goes like 0-60 in 4.5 or something....my 2003 SL55 was faster than that. Just whores out the AMG name.
ML....boring especially versus the X5.
GL....boring....especially versus the X7.
The G550's are gorgeous.....but they aren't really aimed at normal MB buyers.

Audi's models started looking worse two years ago. It seems Audi hit a peak in the early 2010's and it's hard to live to that standard. I thought the A5 was cool when it came out as was the A7.....the A8 model that started in 2012 (I think) looked great, too. I loved the last generation A7 and the new one is just plain. They all look the same, all the performance cars are slower than the BMW ones. Tech is way behind BMW (and I have a new Q7...it's meh).

Mercedes is lost with their AMG models that aren't 63's. No, a M550i is not a real M car and some might say it brings shame on the M name....but a car that does 0-60 in 3.5 or whatever is hardly a shame. At least BMW put that M name on cars that they have put impressive numbers into (even if below a real M car). An AMG-badged car that is still in the 4.5 range is pathetic. You pay for a badge and no actual performance in the whole AMG E43/E53 trash.

Just my 0.02......it all depends on what you want in a car. However, I should not have to accept a downgrade in tech with an Audi or MB at this price point. Like MB for example.....5 seconds for the map to show up? I thought the lightning fast quickness of the BMW maps, etc. were an industry standard. I guess not. Rather, it just tells you how far ahead BMW is here.

I don't know....I've owned a lot of nice cars in my years (Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Audi, and Lexus back when they were hot in the early 2000's) and I keep coming back to BMW. I'm 39 and BMW's cars just seem aimed towards the "younger" professional demographic. Unless you have a 63 AMG (and thus willing to pay 30% more for a car that is simply on par with M cars), the Benzes aren't. They are for old people.
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      01-06-2020, 11:27 PM   #36
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Or perhaps the analyst and/or producer at CNBC had an agenda...
Or ... perhaps you do.
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      01-07-2020, 01:19 AM   #37
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Mercedes is lost with their AMG models that aren't 63's. No, a M550i is not a real M car and some might say it brings shame on the M name....but a car that does 0-60 in 3.5 or whatever is hardly a shame. An AMG car that is still in the 4.5 range is pathetic. You pay for a badge and no actual performance.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with the M550i vs E53/CLS53 claim. Performance and 0-60 times is not the key reason these cars are bought. These are comfortable everyday cruisers that are supposed to have just enough sporting edge and some speed to be fun on a curvy road.

I had a 540i for almost two years, was unsatisfied, tried the M550i for a weekend - which other than speed, didn't offer much more to the 540 - then tried an E53 as I had read many positive reviews/impressions, and ultimately ended up with a CLS53, my first ever Mercedes, as well as the first ever time I had no BMW in my garage (other than my son's) in over 20 years, and I have to say, I don't miss the 540 at all.

Yes, the E/CLS 53 are slower than the 550, but speed doesn't always make a vehicle the best. Many publications have beaten the 0-60 times - some as low as 4.0 seconds, I myself have felt the vehicle is faster than the manufacturer's claim, but regardless the car is still plenty fast, especially for the use of these vehicles which will likely never see drag strips or be raced from stoplight to stoplight.

The 550 in my opinion is a sterile rocket. It's fast, but it is lacking in involvement and feel that 5-series before the F10 had. It feels heavy and has a surprising amount of body roll, and the steering is bad. Its saving grace is its engine, but honestly, the E/CLS 53 have much better body control, handling reflexes, and more natural steering feel, while still having a pretty unique engine setup that fills in boost with an electric supercharger, and provides a seamless start/stop system for comfort driving - that and I never have to turn off auto start stop anymore. The interior and tech of the 5-series is nicer, but I find my CLS to be more satisfying than any 5-series (other than the M5) I've driven/owned in the last 10 years.

Honestly, in my opinion, it's as if BMW and Mercedes have swapped their roles. The 5-series seems like the comfortable car for retirees, and the E/CLS have become the more lively vehicle of the two. I love BMW, and they are getting a lot of things right after their stumble last decade, specifically their SUVs, the 2-series, 3-series and M5, but the regular 5 and 7-series aren't the best they could be.

I'm sure we'll disagree on this, but that is just my opinion as a former owner of the current 5-series who has moved to "the dark side."
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      01-07-2020, 07:14 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
Mercedes is lost with their AMG models that aren't 63's. No, a M550i is not a real M car and some might say it brings shame on the M name....but a car that does 0-60 in 3.5 or whatever is hardly a shame. An AMG car that is still in the 4.5 range is pathetic. You pay for a badge and no actual performance.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with the M550i vs E53/CLS53 claim. Performance and 0-60 times is not the key reason these cars are bought. These are comfortable everyday cruisers that are supposed to have just enough sporting edge and some speed to be fun on a curvy road.

I had a 540i for almost two years, was unsatisfied, tried the M550i for a weekend - which other than speed, didn't offer much more to the 540 - then tried an E53 as I had read many positive reviews/impressions, and ultimately ended up with a CLS53, my first ever Mercedes, as well as the first ever time I had no BMW in my garage (other than my son's) in over 20 years, and I have to say, I don't miss the 540 at all.

Yes, the E/CLS 53 are slower than the 550, but speed doesn't always make a vehicle the best. Many publications have beaten the 0-60 times - some as low as 4.0 seconds, I myself have felt the vehicle is faster than the manufacturer's claim, but regardless the car is still plenty fast, especially for the use of these vehicles which will likely never see drag strips or be raced from stoplight to stoplight.

The 550 in my opinion is a sterile rocket. It's fast, but it is lacking in involvement and feel that 5-series before the F10 had. It feels heavy and has a surprising amount of body roll, and the steering is bad. Its saving grace is its engine, but honestly, the E/CLS 53 have much better body control, handling reflexes, and more natural steering feel, while still having a pretty unique engine setup that fills in boost with an electric supercharger, and provides a seamless start/stop system for comfort driving - that and I never have to turn off auto start stop anymore. The interior and tech of the 5-series is nicer, but I find my CLS to be more satisfying than any 5-series (other than the M5) I've driven/owned in the last 10 years.

Honestly, in my opinion, it's as if BMW and Mercedes have swapped their roles. The 5-series seems like the comfortable car for retirees, and the E/CLS have become the more lively vehicle of the two. I love BMW, and they are getting a lot of things right after their stumble last decade, specifically their SUVs, the 2-series, 3-series and M5, but the regular 5 and 7-series aren't the best they could be.

I'm sure we'll disagree on this, but that is just my opinion as a former owner of the current 5-series who has moved to "the dark side."
Respectfully, enjoy your Mercedes but calling the M550i a "sterile rocket" is really a stretch. Many will disagree with you there.

I love my G30 and it is far from a retiree car. That's your opinion, not a fact.

Furthermore, the E Class is the de facto taxi cab in Europe (akin to the Ford Crown Victoria) I have rode in many late model E class cans over there and have always found them to be cheap feeing/looking car vehicles. Remind me of exactly that Crown Victoria's. Talk about a retiree mobile.

If anything I always preferred the older W212? E class. Seem to be a higher quality vehicle than the current 2017+ generation.
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      01-07-2020, 09:03 AM   #39
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We cross shopped the GLA for the Mrs. few years ago. It drove a lot better than the X1(F48 in its launch year). Handling, traction, turning and even suspension.

We ended with the F48 as it had a larger trunk and a better infotainment system. Plus the ride height and ground clearance for the Northeast winters was better.

Even the E63s wagon I was eyeing seemed better than my current M5 in those aspects, too bad they do not make it in a manual transmission. Yes it was more expensive but it would have close after the exhaust mod on my M5. Those AMGs V8 sound and feel visceral.
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      01-07-2020, 12:05 PM   #40
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In the 4th qtr Mercedes has been extremely backed up in production for most of their new line up. Most models still arent available at dealerships. GLS 580s are almost non existent, GLE 450s,GLE 580s as well. I work at a MB dealership and their new inventory basically consists of the lowest tiers of each model at this moment. I'm not sure the hold up but its definitely hurting sales.
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      01-07-2020, 12:17 PM   #41
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Not surprised, BMW had a ton of new (and quality) product this year.
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      01-07-2020, 07:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
I just think Mercedes' offerings are pretty blah right now.....especially if you want a driver's car. They were pretty damn hot up until their models that came out over the last 2-3 years, too.

C class....boring (especially versus the new 3).
E class......incredibly boring unless it's an E63 (which are still going to be $500 more per month to lease than the M5)
S class.....on the last year of it's life cycle. S class will always be king but BMW did a great job with 7 series LCI.
CLS class.....boring. Boring AMG models for this car. I mean, the AMG model goes like 0-60 in 4.5 or something....my 2003 SL55 was faster than that. Just whores out the AMG name.
ML....boring especially versus the X5.
GL....boring....especially versus the X7.
The G550's are gorgeous.....but they aren't really aimed at normal MB buyers.

Audi's models started looking worse two years ago. It seems Audi hit a peak in the early 2010's and it's hard to live to that standard. I thought the A5 was cool when it came out as was the A7.....the A8 model that started in 2012 (I think) looked great, too. I loved the last generation A7 and the new one is just plain. They all look the same, all the performance cars are slower than the BMW ones. Tech is way behind BMW (and I have a new Q7...it's meh).

Mercedes is lost with their AMG models that aren't 63's. No, a M550i is not a real M car and some might say it brings shame on the M name....but a car that does 0-60 in 3.5 or whatever is hardly a shame. At least BMW put that M name on cars that they have put impressive numbers into (even if below a real M car). An AMG-badged car that is still in the 4.5 range is pathetic. You pay for a badge and no actual performance in the whole AMG E43/E53 trash.

Just my 0.02......it all depends on what you want in a car. However, I should not have to accept a downgrade in tech with an Audi or MB at this price point. Like MB for example.....5 seconds for the map to show up? I thought the lightning fast quickness of the BMW maps, etc. were an industry standard. I guess not. Rather, it just tells you how far ahead BMW is here.

I don't know....I've owned a lot of nice cars in my years (Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Audi, and Lexus back when they were hot in the early 2000's) and I keep coming back to BMW. I'm 39 and BMW's cars just seem aimed towards the "younger" professional demographic. Unless you have a 63 AMG (and thus willing to pay 30% more for a car that is simply on par with M cars), the Benzes aren't. They are for old people.
Agree with the AMG commentary. AMG 43, 45 and 53 models, plus individual AMG appearance-only packages, dilute the brand that formerly meant a single high performance model for each product line, e.g. C63, E63, S63, G63, GLE63, SL63.

Mercedes is likely earning higher profits on the AMG decisions. They are cashing in (cashing out?) on the brand equity, rather than investing in it.
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      01-07-2020, 07:30 PM   #43
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Agree with the AMG commentary. AMG 43, 45 and 53 models, plus individual AMG appearance-only packages, dilute the brand that formerly meant a single high performance model for each product line, e.g. C63, E63, S63, G63, GLE63, SL63.

Mercedes is likely earning higher profits on the AMG decisions. They are cashing in (cashing out?) on the brand equity, rather than investing in it.
I don't like the badging/use of AMG and M despite owning a "diluted AMG model" which thankfully is de-badged, but I mean... isn't BMW just doing the same thing, and Audi even a little bit with "S-line" or Porsche with "Turbo." The Germans are all pretty much guilty with diluting their performance brands image and putting it on almost any car or model they make that aren't the top performance trim.
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      01-08-2020, 04:34 AM   #44
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I don't like the badging/use of AMG and M despite owning a "diluted AMG model" which thankfully is de-badged, but I mean... isn't BMW just doing the same thing, and Audi even a little bit with "S-line" or Porsche with "Turbo." The Germans are all pretty much guilty with diluting their performance brands image and putting it on almost any car or model they make that aren't the top performance trim.
Quote:
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Agree with the AMG commentary. AMG 43, 45 and 53 models, plus individual AMG appearance-only packages, dilute the brand that formerly meant a single high performance model for each product line, e.g. C63, E63, S63, G63, GLE63, SL63.

Mercedes is likely earning higher profits on the AMG decisions. They are cashing in (cashing out?) on the brand equity, rather than investing in it.
Yes and no. The difference is BMW is still making sizable power increases in those M models like the M550i, M850i, etc. They aren't just sticking an M badge on those for kicks. I mean, the M550 was basically faster than any real M car until the F90 (or close at least). No, it wasn't a real M car but they definitely made the M name proud with the power increases.

However, AMG's badging of the 43 and 53 don't make those models real much faster at all. That is definitely diluting the AMG name.
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