[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

M Products are proven purely by demand and if you compare 10 years back to today the market is more expansive for M Products and that is the sign of progress for the entire industry.
BMW M could not just survive with two models the M3 and M5 they had to expand that is why from 2005 the first expansion model the M6 came because there was demand from other markets for a high end performance model from BMW M.

As I mentioned a four is being considered but seems the more logical choice (in theory) in overall placement.

@Haroldwood.
Now you know I always credit you more rather than register my dislike of your work. However that M2 or 2er? render makes me wretch like Chris Brown's music. This is what you should be looking at in terms of outline but not necessary the details but the headlights could be interesting...

Acknowledgement to Topspeed.com

SCOTT,

I am not so hung up on the additional ///M models--just as long as each performs in the segment it was intended to lead. I believe, 4 banger, I6 or whatever, that the M2 will be an improvement over the 1M in many aspects. It should be lighter, quicker, more nimble, and at least as powerful.

I am honestly more concerned about how "available" the M2 car will be. I find it quite funny that BMW makes a 1M, calls it an entry level car, and then only makes 1-2 per dealer here in the USA. How in the hell is a normal person supposed to be able to obtain one when BMW has artifically set the market in that manner? Entry level became MSRP + pick your amount of dealer mark-up. I understand that each dealer has the ability to do this, and it makes sense when the number of available 1Ms is so low. It just flies in the face of "entry level" and somewhat available.

I would think that I am exactly the kind of person that BMW would want to purchase a 1M--I come from a family of BMW lovers (E46s and E90s), my dad had the best ever pure M car (2007 M coupe) that I've ever driven and I have had E92s and E82s myself. I had money in hand and was ready to make a terrible financial decision in order to get a 1M (that's how badly I wanted one), but I was unable to make it happen...

Yes, the folks on this page will point out that there were opportunities to get a 1M build slot and many were able to purchase one for MSRP. I commend those folks, but I was not so lucky. All in all, based on that, I am afraid to be in the same position a few years from now when the M2 is finally here...and as such, I am looking to other options (TTRS, A class AMG, Cayman) when I could have been hooked on ///M for life, like my dad is...

All in all, I believe that folks like myself represent a lost opportunity for BMW, and if that lost opportunity resulted because of a marketing strategy instead of making cars available to those who wanted them (as mentioned in previous posts), then I might move away from BMW based purely on principle. Marketing has never sold me or my family on one of the Bimmers we have had. It has always been the feel of the thing. You may get more volume out of said marketing strategy...but you will never regain the loyalty of those customers that helped make your company what it is today. No matter how many commercials you make.

Just my $.02

[barische]

for guys that are worried about I4 turbo engines power.. I have APR stage 1 tuned VW GTI makes about 290 ft-lb torque and 250 hp at the crank.. its got plenty of power and very fun to drive. Im sure BMW can make a turbo 4 - M2 that is about around the weight of current 1m or less.

imagine current 1m (suspension, body, chassis, etc) w/ e30 m3 engine slapped on with a turbo... excited : ) Newer and tweaked of course. If BMW was able squeeze out 200 hp out of N/A 4 banger in 1990. I dont think we should be worried about BMW's ability squeeze out ~300 hp out of turbo 4 banger in 2013

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by barische

If BMW was able squeeze out 200 hp out of N/A 4 banger in 1990. I dont think we should be worried about BMW's ability squeeze out ~300 hp out of turbo 4 banger in 2013

The E30 M3 Sport Evo had 238 hp.
Back in the 1986, BMW managed to squeeze around 1400 hp out of a 1.5 L four cylinder engine in formula one. These engines didn't last long, though...

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by barische

for guys that are worried about I4 turbo engines power.. I have APR stage 1 tuned VW GTI makes about 290 ft-lb torque and 250 hp at the crank.. its got plenty of power and very fun to drive. Im sure BMW can make a turbo 4 - M2 that is about around the weight of current 1m or less.

imagine current 1m (suspension, body, chassis, etc) w/ e30 m3 engine slapped on with a turbo... excited : ) Newer and tweaked of course. If BMW was able squeeze out 200 hp out of N/A 4 banger in 1990. I dont think we should be worried about BMW's ability squeeze out ~300 hp out of turbo 4 banger in 2013

I had a 425/411 to the wheel evo. It was quick as hell. Might be worried about top end though.

[AusF20/F48]

Blame it all on Porsche

They started this with their 'on steroids' off roader, so everyone else had to provide their own versions. V10 diesels from Audi, Supercharged or turbocharged V8s (everybody)

99% of these 'go fast' show ponies will never go really 'off road'.

We refer to them as 'Torak Tractors' here

Sport (GT) should never had been associated with off road (rally excepted).

Perhaps a new letter for these all wheel drive monsters like R for rediculous, or S for Stupid would be work better

I have never come accross a naturally occurring race track in the bush

I am sure that even if there were naturally occurring race track in the bush none of these Steroid SUVs would ever go on it, as the owners would not want them sratched or damaged.

[logiclee]

Originally Posted by AusF20

Blame it all on Porsche

They started this with their 'on steroids' off roader, so everyone else had to provide their own versions. V10 diesels from Audi, Supercharged or turbocharged V8s (everybody).

Not sure what you get in Oz but in the UK VW had the 5.0 V10 TDi for the Touareg and Audi have the 6.0 V12 TDi

Certainly some towing ability there.

Lee

[BMW-RaceR]

Since the M135I have 320hp and 450NM. The proper M car will most likely have more HP. Say 340+. And probably more NM as well.

Having more than 125HP /L in a modern NA engine is not very realistic.
Neither is a NA 2,8L++ 4 or 5 cylinder.
NA (3L straight six) is probably out of the question due to emissions. And it would not be that easy to beat the engine in the M135I due to its torque numbers.

So we are back at 4,5 or 6 cylinder turbo engines.
Upcoming M3 will probably be 3L I6 with about 450HP.
150HP pr L
0,5L cylinder volume
75HP per cylinder.
That is roughly where good modern turbocharging technology is in terms of high output.

We might see a 2L Subaru engine with 300HP next year..
But not likely BMW will bother with a I4 2.0L turbo at 340HP++. Would probably be very expensive to make compared to I6 which is BMWs thing. It would most likely sound worse compared to M135I. And it would probably need to have 350++ hp to "compensate" for the lack of torque from the lower displacement compared to M135I. I think that will be a bit too much HP with todays technology from a 2L.
If they made a I4 2,2L it would be easier to make about 350HP and some decent torque for a modern M car. But not very likely.

0,5L per cylinder seems to BMWs thing. So is straight six. But im hoping and thinking one or more of the 3-cylinder engines will come in the 2-series. Would be funny if BMW made a new 2,5L I5 turbo for the M2. Chopped of one sylinder from the new M3.

M135I have 1 normal twinscroll turbo.
Im putting my money on a 3L straight six twinturbo for M2 (One electric turbo or someting for minimal lag?)
Maybe tri-turbo for M3 (one electric turbo or something for minimal lag?)

[vladberca]

M2 will be much better than 1M taking into account the developing time
I4 or I6, the best solution will be released for sure

[pkimM3r]

m3 engine per L doesn't sound too impressive figuring mitsubishi evos have been doing that for a long time. 150hp per liter stock. i'm sure bmw can do a lot better than that.

wish they had the m135i in the states I would be all over that thing.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by BMW-RaceR

Since the M135I have 320hp and 450NM. The proper M car will most likely have more HP. Say 340+. And probably more NM as well.

Having more than 125HP /L in a modern NA engine is not very realistic.
Neither is a NA 2,8L++ 4 or 5 cylinder.
NA (3L straight six) is probably out of the question due to emissions. And it would not be that easy to beat the engine in the M135I due to its torque numbers.

So we are back at 4,5 or 6 cylinder turbo engines.
Upcoming M3 will probably be 3L I6 with about 450HP.
150HP pr L
0,5L cylinder volume
75HP per cylinder.
That is roughly where good modern turbocharging technology is in terms of high output.

We might see a 2L Subaru engine with 300HP next year..
But not likely BMW will bother with a I4 2.0L turbo at 340HP++. Would probably be very expensive to make compared to I6 which is BMWs thing. It would most likely sound worse compared to M135I. And it would probably need to have 350++ hp to "compensate" for the lack of torque from the lower displacement compared to M135I. I think that will be a bit too much HP with todays technology from a 2L.
If they made a I4 2,2L it would be easier to make about 350HP and some decent torque for a modern M car. But not very likely.

0,5L per cylinder seems to BMWs thing. So is straight six. But im hoping and thinking one or more of the 3-cylinder engines will come in the 2-series. Would be funny if BMW made a new 2,5L I5 turbo for the M2. Chopped of one sylinder from the new M3.

M135I have 1 normal twinscroll turbo.
Im putting my money on a 3L straight six twinturbo for M2 (One electric turbo or someting for minimal lag?)
Maybe tri-turbo for M3 (one electric turbo or something for minimal lag?)

I totally agree with this post. Particularly, on the 4 cylinder expectations which have no base so far. It is not economical, practical therefore not realistic for BMW to develop a good enough "M" 4 cylinder turbo engine. They already have very efficient N54 and N55 examples, coming from signature I6 tradition and ready to be developed further, polished without much cost and difficulty.

I am yet to see a single (fully stock) 1M dynoing less than 550 nm (410 lb.ft) of torque and less than around 350-360 bhp which will be quite "difficult" to match for any 2 liter/4 cylinder engine. And I assume BMW will not bring us a totally stripped E46 M3 CSL style car as the new M2 to the market, just to compensate the lack of displacement and power. It will have all the modern goodies and will weigh close to a 1M, maybe slightly lighter, that's all. The same will go for new M3/M4.

If you want a totally light and super efficient rwd sports car alternative, like me, wait for cars like Alfa 4C which may hit the markets including US even before than a possibly 2014 if not 2015 model M2, news tell us to expect a 4C around a year from now. It will have around 250 hp from a 1.7 liter turbo four, weigh a crazy 900 kg. or less (oh yes), rwd, mid engine, CF chassis and body parts, DCT transmission and bold styling inside outside with a price tag similar to a future M2 which should also mimic a 1M. All these are confirmed by Alfa. Otherwise everyone, if you want to stick with BMW then BMW is already telling us how a M2 will be if you read between the lines and watch closely the M135i or 1M.This road is going to only one direction and I don't see any lightweight turbo-4 M car at the end of it.

[firechicken99]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

I totally agree with this post. Particularly, on the 4 cylinder expectations which have no base so far. It is not economical, practical therefore not realistic for BMW to develop a good enough "M" 4 cylinder turbo engine. They already have very efficient N54 and N55 examples, coming from signature I6 tradition and ready to be developed further, polished without much cost and difficulty.

I am yet to see a single (fully stock) 1M dynoing less than 550 nm (410 lb.ft) of torque and less than around 350-360 bhp which will be quite "difficult" to match for any 2 liter/4 cylinder engine. And I assume BMW will not bring us a totally stripped E46 M3 CSL style car as the new M2 to the market, just to compensate the lack of displacement and power. It will have all the modern goodies and will weigh close to a 1M, maybe slightly lighter, that's all. The same will go for new M3/M4.

If you want a totally light and super efficient rwd sports car alternative, like me, wait for cars like Alfa 4C which may hit the markets including US even before than a possibly 2014 if not 2015 model M2, news tell us to expect a 4C around a year from now. It will have around 250 hp from a 1.7 liter turbo four, weigh a crazy 900 kg. or less (oh yes), rwd, mid engine, CF chassis and body parts, DCT transmission and bold styling inside outside with a price tag similar to a future M2 which should also mimic a 1M. All these are confirmed by Alfa. Otherwise everyone, if you want to stick with BMW then BMW is already telling us how a M2 will be if you read between the lines and watch closely the M135i or 1M.This road is going to only one direction and I don't see any lightweight turbo-4 M car at the end of it.

That 4C really does look like a sweet track ride!

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by firechicken99

That 4C really does look like a sweet track ride!

Definitely an affordable dream car isn't it? The only box that I couldn't put a click on yet is about the rear differential of this Alfa. Will it be open or e-diff. or a mechanical locking differential, there still is no info. about that. I hope they won't screw such a complete and promising package on that small but important detail. I also hope that they won't be the victims of Euro crisis and postpone or get rid of this ambitious project. I am anxiously waiting how it will fair against future M2, future Cayman/Boxster (previous Spyder like top of the line) and cars like A45 AMG.

[Venom]

I posted this on the other thread but: That would be AWESOME! I'd love a 360-400bhp I4.
Here's the issue. The m235i is already confirmed to have an N55 engine. Would they dare to put a smaller engine in the M over a regular production car? Why introduce a M235i at all? Is it going to be a "1 year only" deal like the 1M was?
That's quite confusing.

A high output I4 is definitely possible because MB just made one and BMW did buy off some MB heads, right?

[bradleyland]

I can understand being excited about a lighter, more focused M2, but I absolutely cannot understand why anyone would be excited about a 360 HP 2.0L turbo I4 engine. BMW cannot defy the laws of physics. The exhaust energy of a 4-cylinder engine has a ceiling that prevents it from generating a smooth, refined powerband above somewhere around 250 HP.

This argument makes me want to kick a puppy:

"But Mitsubishi and Subaru have been doing it for years!"

1) The driving character of an Evo/STi is 180° from the 1M

2) When you turbocharge a 2.0L I4 to these power levels, they're flat and boring at "around town" RPM

3) If I wanted a fucking Evo/STi, I'd save $10K and get one over a (anticipated) $55k M2

The other elephant in the room is that there is no such thing as a *light* automobile any more. My first car was a MkI Golf. It weighed 1700 lbs... Yeah, read that again...

1700 lbs

I had the '77 model with the 78 HP 1.6L, which was second only to the MkI GTI in terms of power. That car was fun, but it was horribly slow by today's standards. My point is that I understand how much fun a light weight car can be. The Mazda Miata still ranks as one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. There is no substitute for lightness.

We can't go back there. Safety is too important. Power windows, power seats, air-conditioning, quiet cabins... all these things have become too important to the broad market.

This is a BMW M car. This is not a Miata. This is not a GTI. This is not an Evo. This is not an STi. This is an M car. M car buyers will not accept the compromises made in cars like the Evo and STi.

If BMW manages to make a 2.0L I4 with more than 310 HP, and is *not* generally regarded as laggy by the automotive press, I'll eat my shoe.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

If BMW manages to make a 2.0L I4 with more than 310 HP, and is *not* generally regarded as laggy by the automotive press, I'll eat my shoe.

I want to see that

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

I want to see that

I've already prepped a fork & knife

[Race 1]

I didn't read the entire thread but it was quoted that the 235i will go around the ring faster than the 1M. If this is so, then the M2 has to be more powerful than the 1M no?

[Dawko]

If you look at the FI V8's and the upcoming I6 this turbo'ed 4 will be a blast to drive.
Tons of torque and little weight.. Probably taking over the CFRP genes of the bigger family member M3/4. My guess would be north or similar to 350ps, as the optional M perf. Kit for the 435i/335i is allready at that level.

5xx Nm sounds pretty awesome and manageable