[ramparts]

The biggest complaint about idrive 8 is the removal of buttons for the touchscreen ( eg climate )

Well, it seems the VW owners have fed back enough they didn't like it they they are adding real buttons back in to their ID cars !

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...ysical-buttons

So, we all need to feed back, complain, whatever it takes to stop this tide !

[tturedraider]

+1!! Thanks for posting!

[Burrcold]

The spy shots of the refreshed Golf R shows them going back to hard buttons as well (very much needed on that car).

[G30M]

i also want a dial for AC temp. button up/down is hopeless.

[allinon72]

They may come back for the short term, but that's about all you can hope for. Hiding behind all this "futuristic" tech is...wait for it....cost savings. It's one of the main drivers behind electric cars as well. Put everything in the screen and it's all programming; no switch to design and produce, one less part in the supply chain, etc. It opens up the world of subscription based features and more planned obsolescence.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by ramparts

The biggest complaint about idrive 8 is the removal of buttons for the touchscreen ( eg climate )

Well, it seems the VW owners have fed back enough they didn't like it they they are adding real buttons back in to their ID cars !

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...ysical-buttons

So, we all need to feed back, complain, whatever it takes to stop this tide !

+1000 The removal of physical buttons/switches for options that one adjusts while driving is a pet peeve of mine.

[KevinC]

I can speak from experience on this one. My DD is a '19 Golf R, with the "old" standard buttons on the wheel. Wife has a new '22 Jetta GLI, with the shitty haptic buttons.

Approaching 5k miles on the Jetta now, a lot of them with me behind the wheel, and those damn haptic buttons are HOT GARBAGE. Apologists can whine "ok boomer" or "you just have to get used to them" all they want - doesn't change the fact that they don't work well. At all.

BMW is going to get an earful for moving all the HVAC controls to that giant Jumbotron® atrocity on the dash in iDrive 8. And they should, it's a travesty.

[ramparts]

Originally Posted by KevinC

I can speak from experience on this one. My DD is a '19 Golf R, with the "old" standard buttons on the wheel. Wife has a new '22 Jetta GLI, with the shitty haptic buttons.

Approaching 5k miles on the Jetta now, a lot of them with me behind the wheel, and those damn haptic buttons are HOT GARBAGE. Apologists can whine "ok boomer" or "you just have to get used to them" all they want - doesn't change the fact that they don't work well. At all.

BMW is going to get an earful for moving all the HVAC controls to that giant Jumbotron® atrocity on the dash in iDrive 8. And they should, it's a travesty.

My only hope is enough time will have passed by the time the 3 series replacement comes around for them to correct it . No hope for the new 5 sadly

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by allinon72

They may come back for the short term, but that's about all you can hope for. Hiding behind all this "futuristic" tech is...wait for it....cost savings. It's one of the main drivers behind electric cars as well. Put everything in the screen and it's all programming; no switch to design and produce, one less part in the supply chain, etc. It opens up the world of subscription based features and more planned obsolescence.

This is an old tech way of thinking. Less parts = less cost. Except with new tech, it doesn't work that way. If anything it is the opposite. It is because people don't understand the costs associated with "new tech".

The iDrive 8 climate control menu. That was not "free savings". It wasn't simply a matter of slapping the settings into a menu and tada, savings made. No, it required a programmer's (probably multiple) time (and consequently cost), over several weeks if not months. Also UI/UX devs on top of that working with the programmers to make it work. Also the mechanical technicians to get the wiring correct to interact with the head unit. Oh and don't forget the QA testers with their testing.

In fact, it is entirely possible it cost BMW more upfront than any physical button climate control panel ever would. The R&D will probably take a bit to "break even" on, but will end up with a cost savings in the end for BMW. That said, it wasn't cheap, I guarantee you that.

I don't see the issue. Eventually the more physical parts will make cars more expensive than it is worth, thus working out to a long run cost savings for consumers too. We are already seeing that in supply chain issues. If you want all these complex physical buttons and dials, well, you will have to pay, both in money and time. Streamlining the car functions to a single head unit decreases cost and time pressure, because it decreases supply chain pressures, allowing to take advantage of bulk ordering of a single unit (a screen), as opposed to multiple smaller things (like nobs and switches) which will ultimately feed down to the consumer.

Yes, it is cost cutting. It is becoming necessary. Unless you want our vehicle prices to continue to increase at astronomical levels, and wait times that continue to be months on end, if not longer.

[br438]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

If you want all these complex physical buttons and dials, well, you will have to pay, both in money and time. Streamlining the car functions to a single head unit decreases cost and time pressure, because it decreases supply chain pressures, allowing to take advantage of bulk ordering of a single unit (a screen), as opposed to multiple smaller things (like nobs and switches) which will ultimately feed down to the consumer.

Yes, it is cost cutting. It is becoming necessary. Unless you want our vehicle prices to continue to increase at astronomical levels, and wait times that continue to be months on end, if not longer.

I can replace the buttons; I can replace the HVAC control or the Head unit.

I don't want a single control module that totals the car when it goes bad because of 1 cold solder joint or a bad set of capacitors.

It is cost savings; it is not safe (while we are still driving), and like the simplicity of the electric drivetrain... it is cost savings in manufacturing/parts that is costing the consumer exponentially in the long run. It's a bad deal.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

This is an old tech way of thinking. Less parts = less cost. Except with new tech, it doesn't work that way. If anything it is the opposite. It is because people don't understand the costs associated with "new tech".

The iDrive 8 climate control menu. That was not "free savings". It wasn't simply a matter of slapping the settings into a menu and tada, savings made. No, it required a programmer's (probably multiple) time (and consequently cost), over several weeks if not months. Also UI/UX devs on top of that working with the programmers to make it work. Also the mechanical technicians to get the wiring correct to interact with the head unit. Oh and don't forget the QA testers with their testing.

In fact, it is entirely possible it cost BMW more upfront than any physical button climate control panel ever would. The R&D will probably take a bit to "break even" on, but will end up with a cost savings in the end for BMW. That said, it wasn't cheap, I guarantee you that.

I don't see the issue. Eventually the more physical parts will make cars more expensive than it is worth, thus working out to a long run cost savings for consumers too. We are already seeing that in supply chain issues. If you want all these complex physical buttons and dials, well, you will have to pay, both in money and time. Streamlining the car functions to a single head unit decreases cost and time pressure, because it decreases supply chain pressures, allowing to take advantage of bulk ordering of a single unit (a screen), as opposed to multiple smaller things (like nobs and switches) which will ultimately feed down to the consumer.

So in the same post, you refute my comments that it's a cost saving measure, while at the same time making the argument that we will have to pay more for physical buttons because it is more expensive for auto makers :

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by br438

I can replace the buttons; I can replace the HVAC control or the Head unit.

I don't want a single control module that totals the car when it goes bad because of 1 cold solder joint or a bad set of capacitors.

It is cost savings; it is not safe (while we are still driving), and like the simplicity of the electric drivetrain... it is cost savings in manufacturing/parts that is costing the consumer exponentially in the long run. It's a bad deal.

It is no different than having blown tires that need to be replaced, brakes that need to be replaced.

The more mechanical things, the more points of failure in, just about any mechanical device. That is the golden rule of engineering. The more complex an item is, the more failure points. Yes, the head units also follow that principle, and they are getting more complex too.

If you meant unsafe as in a complete head unit failure is something to consider yes, but I replaced my radio in my E90 for an aftermarket one in a botched job (from an aftermarket place I went to), it didn't like it, my dash would suddenly reset and the dials would go to 0 (like mph) for a brief period, even while driving, had to get it removed. Freaked me out having that happen while driving. You could have failures like that well before the invention of the touch screen.

If you meant unsafe as in you have to touch the screen for climate controls and take your eyes off the road, I already do that, in my E90 manual climate buttons, as do probably 95% of people. How else are you supposed to see what your changing the temperature to? Buttons give tactile feedback, but they don't substitute not needing to look at the climate controls to change, unless you are REALLY good at knowing where your temp is and what amount of clicks/rotations of a button/dial will get you to what you want.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by allinon72

So in the same post, you refute my comments that it's a cost saving measure, while at the same time making the argument that we will have to pay more for physical buttons because it is more expensive for auto makers :

Perhaps I wasn't clear. It is a cost saving measure for both BMW and consumers long term. Short term, for BMW, it likely cost them more than physical buttons, due to R&D, but over time of sales, will net them a positive cost saving measure, and therefore, also consumers.

The logical fallacy here is that people are assuming BMW is taking that cost saving and not passing on ANY of the savings to the consumers, leaving them with a lesser solution for the same cost, when that is not true. Maybe in the short term it is not saving anything, because in the short term it also isn't saving BMW much because of the R&D costs, but it also will mean, hopefully, just like all the other cars doing this, a stabilization of car prices, where they won't continue to increase dramatically over the next few years.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Perhaps I wasn't clear. It is a cost saving measure for both BMW and consumers long term. Short term, for BMW, it likely cost them more than physical buttons, due to R&D, but over time of sales, will net them a positive cost saving measure, and therefore, also consumers.

The logical fallacy here is that people are assuming BMW is taking that cost saving and not passing on ANY of the savings to the consumers, leaving them with a lesser solution for the same cost, when that is not true. Maybe in the short term it is not saving anything, because in the short term it also isn't saving BMW much because of the R&D costs, but it also will mean, hopefully, just like all the other cars doing this, a stabilization of car prices, where they won't continue to increase dramatically over the next few years.

And you know this how?

[Rocket455]

I get the economics side of migrating everything to a screen (as much as I absolutely *hate* it). However, the issue has always been one of usability and convenience for the end user: you shouldn't have to wade through a mess of menus to get to something you may need to adjust frequently enough during a trip; that includes HVAC and media access. One thing that I've seen that comes close to a compromise between the tactile and touchscreen world are touchscreen menus that appear in a fixed location within some part of the main screen. These are always available right there without the need to "bring them up" via a central menu....again, not my preference, but I'd be able to [begrudgingly] live with that.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Rocket455

I get the economics side of migrating everything to a screen (as much as I absolutely *hate* it). However, the issue has always been one of usability and convenience for the end user: you shouldn't have to wade through a mess of menus to get to something you may need to adjust frequently enough during a trip; that includes HVAC and media access. One thing that I've seen that comes close to a compromise between the tactile and touchscreen world are touchscreen menus that appear in a fixed location within some part of the main screen. These are always available right there without the need to "bring them up" via a central menu....again, not my preference, but I'd be able to [begrudgingly] live with that.

I agree. I have a deposit down on a Lucid Air Pure and that is the way its screen works. And it has physical buttons for AC.

[P1]

There's a reason keyboards still have physical buttons and we aren't using an iPad with virtual keys.

[SteezeforMyBimmerMon]

Good! Buttons are safer because you can find them easier without taking your eyes off of the road.

[peelerec]

I thought idrive 7 was perfect combination of touch screen with physical buttons for climate control. I agree that it is a travesty to remove all physical buttons and have them on screens. It is not as safe as memorizing physical button.

[DB_Cooper]

Originally Posted by ramparts

The biggest complaint about idrive 8 is the removal of buttons for the touchscreen ( eg climate )

Well, it seems the VW owners have fed back enough they didn't like it they they are adding real buttons back in to their ID cars !

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...ysical-buttons

So, we all need to feed back, complain, whatever it takes to stop this tide !

Too bad they won't be fixing the front end of the golf…looks like garbage compared to prior generations.

[M4_ZMT]

I can't stand the removal of physical climate controls! For me it's safer feeling knowing exactly where to press and being able to mostly keep your eyes on the road. With a touchscreen I worry that without that tactile feedback it would be more distracting.

I would at least want the fan speed option always showing as well on the bottom, and to turn on heated seats should be something accessible by a physical key or permanent bottom screen bar as well. I think I could get used to it if they made it a bit more functional on the bottom area where there is just temp adjustment now...but not a fan of even the climate menu when you go into it. Just looks like a bunch of circles and hard to know what you're doing, again, while having to take eyes off the road. It's surprising to me that BMW, known for their ergonomics made this choice, but there is no doubt how cool it does look and futuristic it has made their cabin feel. Not to mention the graphics and display quality is great.

I think with some fine tuning, I could maybe do it....but for now I am glad I have a 2022 M4 with the iDrive 7 system and physical climate controls.

EDIT: Seeing the new X1, U11, WEIRDLY since they ditched the controller completely, iDrive 8 seems more compelling as a completely touch based system, lol- I do like the volume roller/mute in the center.

This post sounds all over the place, but I do see merits in both.

[Westside Guy]

When you have to take your eyes off of the road to look at a screen that creates a safety issue. With buttons, you don't have this to worry about.