[tracer bullet]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...arket-anymore/

I don't believe a subscription is required to read it, and I'm only partially sure it's considered an allowable topic in the main news discussions.

One could argue that sales are high and the brand is therefore headed the right direction. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's not in love with that direction.

Overall the subject isn't exactly new news, but I thought folks here might be interested in the article, coming from one of the bigger car magazines.

[DDD31]

I’m also not in love with BMW’s direction for the future. I understand that BMW is in business to make money and they seem to be doing a good job catering to the masses.

As for myself, none of the upcoming BMWs interest me in the least. From the ungodly huge grills to any of the SUVs and iX models, I just can’t even remotely get excited about the upcoming BMWs.

Unfortunately my M5 will probably be my last new BMW and it makes me sad after being a lifelong BMW fanboy to say that.

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[DrFerry]

The R&T article you linked "nails-it" IMO..

"BMW seems to have gone all in on the tech, and connectedness, with a weird focus on a styling direction that the brand almost hog headedly refuses to acknowledge has its detractors. The i7 and iX are odd looking, and the i7’s theatre mode and integrated suite felt like they were more of a focus of the car compared to how it actually drives."

AND

"The Tesla Model 3 is the best BMW 3-Series that BMW never built, dynamically. But most of the pomp and circumstance behind the Model 3 tends to be focused on its straight-line performance and tech features. When faced with that information, why cater to a market that increasingly doesn’t care? Well, BMW is trying to court a new clientele, one much less interested in driving dynamics. One that isn’t like us."

As proof regarding hog headedness, just look at these hog head front ends..
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[Blue87]

Many manufacturers are moving towards EV and I don't really want one, especially not until charging station network has caught up and we don't have to worry about blackouts etc. I planned on keeping this M50i for only 3 or 4 years but I may hold out just a little bit longer to see what the future holds. I don't mind being connected and definitely don't mind technology but do prefer a continued focus on fun to drive vehicles.

[tturedraider]

I posted this yesterday in a thread about the G20 LCI M340i

“Wow!! That review is just mind boggling. I’ve never preferred the pre-LCI to the LCI, until now.

I’ve been a huge BMW fanboy since before the E30 was first introduced. I was crazy for the E24 635CSi. My friend’s E30 325i was the first BMW I ever drove and will never forget that experience. I was ruined. I didn’t really think I’d ever be able to own a BMW, but 20 years later I finally was. I never imagined in a million years I would say this. BMW has lost me. Hopefully in the spring I’ll find an acceptable deal on a 2020 M340i. Barring a huge turn around with BMW that will be my last BMW.“

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1974071

[TheMaxXHD]

"The Tesla Model 3 is the best BMW 3-Series that BMW never built, dynamically."

No, the TM3 is the cheapest BMW 3-Series that BMW never built, dynamically. And that is the TM3's achilleas heel. And not just for BMW to beat tesla on, but all car manufacturers going forward.

Anyway. Here is the issue. I am the new target market. The younger tech focused generation. The generation that doesn't care for manual because that is just more work and hassle to drive a car when you could just have the car shift for itself. The generation where ACC and steering assist is important because it creates a more relaxing drive. The generation where driving is so much more than how much you can feel the road.

Not to say driving dynamics aren't important, they still are, but they just aren't the only thing anymore.

I drive an E90. I love it. It is amazing. But I just want my G20 to get here. I can't stand the lack of tech. I also have a love hate relationship with the Hydraulic steering. A nice to have at times sure, but I dislike it's stiffness too.

Old BMW is the ultimate driving machine. New BMW is the ultimate driving machine.

What is changing is, the definition of "what is an ultimate driving machine?".

If BMW built an E46 today brand new and plopped it in the lineup, it would not sell as well as the G20. Car enthusiasts would pick it up obviously, but I bet you, all my money, that the G20 would outsell it. Same if it was the E90. If they plopped both the E46 and E90, I think the G20, the LCI, the idrive 8 car, would still outsell both of them combined. If you gave the E46 and E90 everything the G20 has, then is it really the E46 and E90 anymore, no, its a G20, and we would be right back here. Heavier, numb feeling, with all that tech everywhere. And that, my friends, is BMW's existential crisis. It can't be old BMW, because old BMW would get crushed in the market. So they must adapt. The question becomes, how do they adapt, and how well do they do it. I think BMW is hit or miss with this.

For example, we can hate all we want on the G80 grill, but it is possibly going to be the best selling M3 of all time. How? Good question, because some of their designs might be hated on here, it doesn't mean it is a bad car, doesn't mean people won't buy it, and it also doesn't mean that most people hate it.

I am proud to say, I will happily take BMW's newer idrive 8 car over their older e30, e36, e46, e90 ones. Not because the older cars are bad, they are amazing, they might even drive and feel better to drive than the latest BMW, but they aren't the cars for today, they are the cars from yesterday. Great cars, but technologically aging, and in this technological age, that is a death sentence for the newer generation of drivers, and a death sentence for me as a young driver. And again, I drive an E90 without all the tech, I know tech isn't everything, but it does mean something. And what I do know is, sometimes I just want a dull EPS rack over my stiff Hydraulic E90 steering. That might be a sin to say on here, but it is the truth, and at the end of the day, that is where the market is going, whether the car enthusiasts on here like it or not.

[Germanauto]

Anybody who experienced how "old" BMWs drove (up until about 2012) already knew this. The rest of the car community is only catching on now because the odd styling decisions of the brand are making headlines.

BMW's classic driving "feel" died when the F-generation models came. Just a handful of remaining models, notably from the M division, still deliver thrills, but in a different way from prior (acceleration and clinical precision vs a raw and communicative driving "feel").

BMW has become too big and volume-oriented for its own good. And today's customers both young and old, no longer care for what BMW used to deliver. Branding, tech, self-driving features etc. are what sell cars now.

That's why I've moved onto more niche cars that remain focused on the driving experience rather than trying to be everything to everybody in order to hit some arbitrary sales targets. There's 10 BMWs at every stoplight, the brand is watered down and played out IMO. The M cars are why I still maintain some interest in returning to the brand in the future.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

I am the new target market.

I certainly respect the opinion. And I'm willing to bet a huge percentage of owners (not necessarily you) care about the badge itself, and driving something with it. They do have to keep selling cars after all. You're lucky to be in their market.

I don't expect the company to cater to the minority. Just kind of wish a car or two could still be available to keep the purists happy. The M's are great performers obviously but bigger, heavier, intentionally reduced tactile feedback and more tech laden isn't the direction I hoped *everything* would end up going.

[SteveinArizona]

For better or worse. I am one who has a real problem with the direction of BMW. I like the way BMWs drive but the current design and direction are ones I can't take (ugly grilles, in your face executive attitude, etc.).

I just replaced my transitional 530e (note here that BMW makes a 545e but won't sell it in the USA) with a Genesis GV60 BEV. It is the small SUV/raised hatch that BMW should have made. 177.8" long but with a large wheelbase; 429 HP with a boost button on the steering wheel to raise that for up to ten seconds to 489; electronic Ediff; nappa leather; lots of buttons and switches (which I like) and they are all aluminum; easy exit/entry; fast charging, etc. etc.

BMW used to make small, fast good handling automobiles. Now it is tending toward large, boatlike beasts. I really wanted to like the new BMW BEVs and I did a test drive in the IX thinking that if everything else was okay, I could get a dark car and try to ignore the unnecessary grille. It did drive well but the entire vehicle was ungainly and ugly.

Only time will tell if the new direction works economically for BMW or if they got false hopes because they could sell everything they could make (as could many competitors).

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I certainly respect the opinion. And I'm willing to bet a huge percentage of owners (not necessarily you) care about the badge itself, and driving something with it. They do have to keep selling cars after all. You're lucky to be in their market.

I don't expect the company to cater to the minority. Just kind of wish a car or two could still be available to keep the purists happy. The M's are great performers obviously but bigger, heavier, intentionally reduced tactile feedback and more tech laden isn't the direction I hoped *everything* would end up going.

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

For better or worse. I am one who has a real problem with the direction of BMW. I like the way BMWs drive but the current design and direction are ones I can't take (ugly grilles, in your face executive attitude, etc.).

I just replaced my transitional 530e (note here that BMW makes a 545e but won't sell it in the USA) with a Genesis GV60 BEV. It is the small SUV/raised hatch that BMW should have made. 177.8" long but with a large wheelbase; 429 HP with a boost button on the steering wheel to raise that for up to ten seconds to 489; electronic Ediff; nappa leather; lots of buttons and switches (which I like) and they are all aluminum; easy exit/entry; fast charging, etc. etc.

BMW used to make small, fast good handling automobiles. Now it is tending toward large, boatlike beasts. I really wanted to like the new BMW BEVs and I did a test drive in the IX thinking that if everything else was okay, I could get a dark car and try to ignore the unnecessary grille. It did drive well but the entire vehicle was ungainly and ugly.

Only time will tell if the new direction works economically for BMW or if they got false hopes because they could sell everything they could make (as could many competitors).

I think a large part of this is, BMW is not just targeting the younger market. They are targeting the American market. Which is what everyone is doing. Part of that is because the American car market is not only competitive, it also is still heavy into cars, versus other markets like Europe, where cars are both more expensive and less desirable/necessary depending on where you live.

It is clear as day the bread and butter of BMW right now, based on sales figures, is not any of their sedans, not their M cars, its their X line. Their bread and butter is the X3 (which btw is a VERY nice small SUV). Based on Q3 2022 sales figures, the X3 outsells all other models in North America. The second highest, the X5. After that, the 3 series sedans and 4 series coups trade blows along with the X7.

To put it into perspective, of the 249,835 YTD 2022 sales for BMW NA in the Q3 2022 report, 146,673 were from their X line. That is more than half of BMW's sales in NA being SUV based. SUV's.....being BMW's highest sales line.....a company historically known for their sedans and coups.

As for the grills and designs. Well, the grills, all manufacturers are making them bigger and more shall we say "interesting". Part of that is the grills hide the tech sensors and cameras. Part of it is to differentiate in a car market that is increasingly about design and tech and less about handling and "quality". I think BMW is struggling here in the design more than others. It is clear they have been trying to be the more "grand" design language. What more example than Hans Zimmer doing the i4 series sound. I think the sounds are stupid, but clearly is meant to promote a grand, extravagant, over the top, design, and I think it sucks. I don't think it is working nearly as well.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Anyway. Here is the issue. I am the new target market. The younger tech focused generation. The generation that doesn't care for manual because that is just more work and hassle to drive a car when you could just have the car shift for itself. The generation where ACC and steering assist is important because it creates a more relaxing drive. The generation where driving is so much more than how much you can feel the road.

Why buy a BMW then?

There are plenty of cars that have all that tech and create a more relaxing drive for WAY less money than a BMW. Buying a BMW was supposed to be about the driving experience first and foremost and BMW has been moving away from that since the E90. I realize that BMW could never make it as a car company by just catering to enthusiasts but it would be nice if the M cars were still the focused cars of the past. Current M cars are performance monsters by numbers but they have definitely lost the magic of the past.

I salute BMW for adapting with the times and still being a successful manufacturer but this old dinosaur will be moving on.
.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by DDD31

Why buy a BMW then?

There are plenty of cars that have all that tech and create a more relaxing drive for WAY less money than a BMW. Buying a BMW was supposed to be about the driving experience first and foremost and BMW has been moving away from that since the E90. I realize that BMW could never make it as a car company by just catering to enthusiasts but it would be nice if the M cars were still the focused cars of the past. Current M cars are performance monsters by numbers but they have definitely lost the magic of the past.

I salute BMW for adapting with the times and still being a successful manufacturer but this old dinosaur will be moving on.
.

Good question. I think personally the problem is less the magic of the M cars have disappeared, and more their relevance has disappeared to entirely the track for the most part, making them harder and harder to justify for the cost.

That is because of the increased power outputs of all vehicles across the entire board from all manufacturers, especially when EVs come into play.

For reference, my m340i on the way will not only be faster than my E90 328, it will be faster than the E90 335i, and not only that, it will also be the same if not slightly faster than the E90 M3. That is crazy. That also begs the question, why have anything faster if not tracking? It is already as fast if not slightly faster than the M3 from only a little over a decade ago. What do I gain going from a G20 M340i to a G80 M3 for the money, if I am not taking it on a track.

A decade ago, an E90 M3 would've still yielded positive net gains on the street in terms of responsiveness and overall feel to justify the cost, albeit still a hefty and diminishing returns. Now, to feel the gains of the M3, you really need to track it. Yes, I am sure even on the street the G80 handles better than the G20, but at what cost? A large cost. And for how much gain on the regular road? Not that much.

Also, BMWs are getting expensive, so are non-BMWs. Nice featured, loaded Honda's now go for over 30,000+, sometimes over 40,000. That is pushing into 330i territory. Into entry luxury car territory. And while BMWs might drive less sporty than they did a decade ago, they still drive better than the Honda's.

[DDD31]

I completely agree with cars having way too much power now, especially the M versions. My current M5 is the first car I've ever owned that I think is too fast. Sure the insane power is a lot of fun but you can't use it anywhere on the street without getting to absolutely ridiculous speeds. I know manufacturers are not going to make cars with less power and slower because 0-60 times are now the new standard of dick measuring. I'll be seriously looking at older cars to replace my M5 that are more engaging and soulful. An E92 M3 or E60 M5 are starting to catch my eye... off to Bring a Trailer....

.

[TheMaxXHD]

I agree, I think there is a big question as to whether cars are getting a bit too fast for people's own good. As a young driver, I am thankful I got the ability to drive in an E90 328i. It is fast and nice, but not overwhelmingly so, especially in today's turbo era. Still fast, but not over the top. 0-60 is ~7 seconds iirc, maybe a bit less.

I said this on the E90 forum, while I may be ready to move on from the E90 I drive for something more modern and fresh, I still think it made me a much better driver than I would've if one would've plopped me in a G20 M340i at the age of 18. That, I think is a bit too much power for those just starting to drive, and the sad part is, with EVs, that speed is becoming the norm and people learning to drive on these vehicles with 0-60s in less than 5 seconds, will become more prevalent, which is scary.

I think it also made me a better driver than my family's Subaru Impreza that has all the tech, ACC, all that good stuff, but a boxer engine that is painfully slow to the point that I find it kind of scary, steering and driving dynamics that makes cornering feel like a roll of the dice unless you really slow down. And a CVT that is equally slow and unpredictably unresponsive.

[G30M]

lol fast = destroyed = buy another = $$$

[snareman]

BMW is definitely not the enthusiast brand that it once was both in car design and customer service. I can't argue with what they are doing from a business perspective because sales seem to be going well for them, but they went from the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' to 'Cars for the People, Soccer Moms and Millennials'. I feel like the overall love for cars from the populace isn't what it once was so they have broadened their marketing and car design.

I think there are people that buy BMW's just for the Roundel and aren't an enthusiast for the brand at all. When I come across another BMW at a light or on the road the likelihood that they will recognize that I'm also in a BMW, even a fancy M8, is directly related to the number of tail pipes their car has. The overwhelming number of them just have 2 tail pipes on one side, and they almost never notice other BMWs. 1 tail pipe on each side there is a good chance they will notice and 4 pipes, they will 100% notice you in a BMW.

With this diffusion of the brand also comes less high end customer service. I remember being amazed back circa 2006 that the dealer sent a driver to see me at work just to have me sign a paper for the car I was buying. It was a 1min visit from him and he was off. My dealer would NEVER do that today, granted stuff is online now, but it's just a different level of service than it used to be. I feel like when my car was going in for service they used to lead with, "When can we come pick that up?" and now its, "When can you bring that in" and I have to ask them to come get it. It's just not the luxury brand experience that it used to be.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by snareman

BMW is definitely not the enthusiast brand that it once was both in car design and customer service. I can't argue with what they are doing from a business perspective because sales seem to be going well for them, but they went from the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' to 'Cars for the People, Soccer Moms and Millennials'. I feel like the overall love for cars from the populace isn't what it once was so they have broadened their marketing and car design.

I think there are people that buy BMW's just for the Roundel and aren't an enthusiast for the brand at all. When I come across another BMW at a light or on the road the likelihood that they will recognize that I'm also in a BMW, even a fancy M8, is directly related to the number of tail pipes their car has. The overwhelming number of them just have 2 tail pipes on one side, and they almost never notice other BMWs. 1 tail pipe on each side there is a good chance they will notice and 4 pipes, they will 100% notice you in a BMW.

With this diffusion of the brand also comes less high end customer service. I remember being amazed back circa 2006 that the dealer sent a driver to see me at work just to have me sign a paper for the car I was buying. It was a 1min visit from him and he was off. My dealer would NEVER do that today, granted stuff is online now, but it's just a different level of service than it used to be. I feel like when my car was going in for service they used to lead with, "When can we come pick that up?" and now its, "When can you bring that in" and I have to ask them to come get it. It's just not the luxury brand experience that it used to be.

The customer service, I think is much the experience of many car brands, atleast in my experience. It also really depends on the dealership. But still, I agree on the customer service side.

What I don't agree with is this notion that BMWs suddenly are 'Cars for the People, Soccer Moms and Millennials'. And even if they are, is that such a bad thing? I can understand why the enthusiast might be upset about that, but, don't we want more people to witness and drive better cars that handle better? How is that a bad thing? Maybe to the enthusiast, but to the common driver, I think it is actually a positive thing.

Sure, the BMWs of today might not handle nearly as well than the BMWs of last decade or the decade before, but they are still good cars. I don't have my G20 yet, only based on test drive, so I can't comment on it, but I will say the 2020 X3 I've driven, and even the latest X5 I've driven too, handle, WAY better than the family subaru. They handled way better than the family chevy truck. They handled way better than any Honda, or Toyota I've ever driven. That is impressive considering especially the X5 is pretty big compared to the non-direct comparisons I am making to other smaller cars you'd expect to handle better than an X5.

And those aren't perfect comparisons either I know. They also aren't knocks on Honda, Toyota, Subaru, or other manufacturers. A lot of them make great cars for good value that handle pretty well. But the BMWs of today still handle better.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

The customer service, I think is much the experience of many car brands, atleast in my experience. It also really depends on the dealership. But still, I agree on the customer service side.

What I don't agree with is this notion that BMWs suddenly are 'Cars for the People, Soccer Moms and Millennials'. And even if they are, is that such a bad thing? I can understand why the enthusiast might be upset about that, but, don't we want more people to witness and drive better cars that handle better? How is that a bad thing? Maybe to the enthusiast, but to the common driver, I think it is actually a positive thing.

Sure, the BMWs of today might not handle nearly as well than the BMWs of last decade or the decade before, but they are still good cars. I don't have my G20 yet, only based on test drive, so I can't comment on it, but I will say the 2020 X3 I've driven, and even the latest X5 I've driven too, handle, WAY better than the family subaru. They handled way better than the family chevy truck. They handled way better than any Honda, or Toyota I've ever driven. That is impressive considering especially the X5 is pretty big compared to the non-direct comparisons I am making to other smaller cars you'd expect to handle better than an X5.

And those aren't perfect comparisons either I know. They also aren't knocks on Honda, Toyota, Subaru, or other manufacturers. A lot of them make great cars for good value that handle pretty well. But the BMWs of today still handle better.

Yes, that's my point. BMW has changed its direction from enthusiast to the masses. Certainly good for the masses, less exciting for the enthusiast, but again, I get it from a business perspective as they should sell more cars. Anyone can own a BMW these days especially if they buy it slightly used. One of the docs I work with wanted an X3, but didn't want to spend over 20k on one. She's now bought 2 for I think 17 and 19k (bought the second after her first got totalled). I still love the cars, but I'm not as thrilled with their design direction over the last few years. BMW doesn't care about what people think of their designs. Dukec has said it himself. They don't care about design traditions. They don't care about keeping M parts to M cars. The brand is just more diffused in many ways. It's also like Steve Jobs used to say - we'll tell people what they like and need.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by snareman

Yes, that's my point. BMW has changed its direction from enthusiast to the masses. Certainly good for the masses, less exciting for the enthusiast, but again, I get it from a business perspective as they should sell more cars. Anyone can own a BMW these days especially if they buy it slightly used. One of the docs I work with wanted an X3, but didn't want to spend over 20k on one. She's now bought 2 for I think 17 and 19k (bought the second after her first got totalled). I still love the cars, but I'm not as thrilled with their design direction over the last few years. BMW doesn't care about what people think of their designs. Dukec has said it himself. They don't care about design traditions. They don't care about keeping M parts to M cars. The brand is just more diffused in many ways. It's also like Steve Jobs used to say - we'll tell people what they like and need.

I really like that Steve Jobs quote, I think it perfectly explains the direction the car space is going.

Enthusiast driving is coming to an end. It isn't at it's end yet, and likely won't be for awhile, but eventually, it will be.

EVs are essentially just a chassis, 4 wheels, a few electric motors, and a suspension, on top of a big battery. Bit more complicated then that, but more or less, that's basically it. Not much for the enthusiast to do to change or modify. At that point it's just all about design and tech, and handling with the massive heavy battery packs.

EVs still have a ways to go, and it's really anyone's guess how long it will take, but eventually it will be time to say goodbye to the ICE cars.

Back to the Steve Jobs quote, for better or for worse, cars are going down the path of "apple-ifcation".

[Blue87]

I love the acceleration of this M50i and wouldn't dare complain that it's too fast. I suppose when I'm 80, I might not want a fast beast, will choose a vehicle accordingly and hope the sporty/fun option will always be there. I wish manufacturers would continue focus on sport luxurious options while keeping the prices at a decent level. That iX I had as a loaner just didn't do it for me, despite being nice overall. Seems Mercedes has somewhat neutered it's AMG options ny moving to a turbo 4cyl setup.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Old BMW is the ultimate driving machine. New BMW is the ultimate driving machine. What is changing is, the definition of "what is an ultimate driving machine?".

Disagree. Ultimate Driving Machine was a tag line used by BMW and the key is the first 2 words ULTIMATE DRIVING which by definition means it's about the way the car drives. These are common words whose meaning not even Merriam-Webster dictionary can change. Indeed, BMW never changed it. They went with another slogan in their recent advertisements: "Sheer Driving Pleasure." This is the tag line they're going with these days.

The main reason why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan was so successful was because BMW backed it up. Now that they no longer do so, it's no longer their tag line. It's not a change in definition.

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

If BMW built an E46 today brand new and plopped it in the lineup, it would not sell as well as the G20. Car enthusiasts would pick it up obviously, but I bet you, all my money, that the G20 would outsell it.

Of course if you take a 20-yr old model unchanged and "plop it in the lineup," it would not sell well. But in your hypothetical, if you made a G20 with the same road connection, steering feel, etc. of the E46, it would outsell today's G20. No doubt.

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

For example, we can hate all we want on the G80 grill, but it is possibly going to be the best selling M3 of all time. How? Good question, because some of their designs might be hated on here, it doesn't mean it is a bad car, doesn't mean people won't buy it, and it also doesn't mean that most people hate it.

We are living in a post-COVID world where manufacturers are selling cars as fast as they can make them. More and more people are buying cars and there are more people with money these days. People used to buy BMW for their looks, now many times they do it in spite of their looks because of the brand name. I have no doubt that if current BMW's have better designs, they'd sell even more of them.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Disagree. Ultimate Driving Machine was a tag line used by BMW and the key is the first 2 words ULTIMATE DRIVING which by definition means it's about the way the car drives. These are common words whose meaning not even Merriam-Webster dictionary can change. Indeed, BMW never changed it. They went with another slogan in their recent advertisements: "Sheer Driving Pleasure." This is the tag line they're going with these days.

The main reason why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan was so successful was because BMW backed it up. Now that they no longer do so, it's no longer their tag line. It's not a change in definition.



Of course if you take a 20-yr old model unchanged and "plop it in the lineup," it would not sell well. But in your hypothetical, if you made a G20 with the same road connection, steering feel, etc. of the E46, it would outsell today's G20. No doubt.



We are living in a post-COVID world where manufacturers are selling cars as fast as they can make them. More and more people are buying cars and there are more people with money these days. People used to buy BMW for their looks, now many times they do it in spite of their looks because of the brand name. I have no doubt that if current BMW's have better designs, they'd sell even more of them.

I could argue with some of this, but that isn't the point of this discussion. They do btw still use the ultimate driving machine slogan, even on the latest commercials, you can look up them on youtube.

The point of this discussion is that neither you nor I, are right or wrong. The point is, people like different things from their cars, and that is okay. BMWs are still great cars. They still handle great. So are Honda, Toyotas, Ford's. There are bad cars yes, but the vast majority of cars on the market will be good enough for just about everyone. What matters then comes down to personal preferences and what one can afford.

To circle back to "We Aren't BMW's Target Market Anymore", from Road and Track, what started this thread. I think everyone can agree BMW has changed atleast a little. Some people will like it, some people will hate it. There is no such thing as the perfect vehicle, because that is all about each individual person.

I'll end with this. Vehicles are getting stupid expensive across the board, every brand. Don't settle for what others like or for a brand just for the badge, settle for what YOU like. The idea is you like the car you buy. If you like the car, then who cares what a single other person says or thinks about it. There is nothing worse then spending a lot of money only to be disappointed with what you buy.