[No Boost]

Originally Posted by 2023G87M2

I'm now more interested in 5-60 as others have pointed out and the differences are definitely surprising and not surprising at the same time

G80 Comp:

C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 3.5 sec
100 mph: 7.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 11.6 sec @ 124 mph
130 mph: 12.8 sec
150 mph: 18.3 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.2 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 4.5 sec

A full second of a difference between the two tests is substantial but that's not to say the car is slow by any means. That 124 mph trap is a respectable 4-5 mph gain over the previous F80.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by chris719

This is just not the bulk of the improvement. Even an old E90 335i is traction limited off the line. If they had traction control like a Tesla, you would be surprised at the numbers.

Check out 0-60 vs 5-60 for EVs, for example. EVs are fast from a stop because they don't spin. If you are fast enough, you can allow only "microslip" and maximize the traction offered.

E90 is antique. OP specified 10 years, which is 2013. New models in the two-thousand-teens had ABS/TCS/ESP same as today.

Specific output is the difference today. One example is the M157 TT 5.5L V8 from MB in 2012 - more power than nearly all variants of the preceding M156 NA 6.2L V8. The replacement for the M157 is the M17x TT 4.0L V8 which again has more more power than the prior engine.

BMW and Porsche are similar, the MB example is illustrative only.

When in doubt, add more power. And torque.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chassis

E90 is antique. OP specified 10 years, which is 2013. New models in the two-thousand-teens had ABS/TCS/ESP same as today.

Specific output is the difference today. One example is the M157 TT 5.5L V8 from MB in 2012 - more power than nearly all variants of the preceding M156 NA 6.2L V8. The replacement for the M157 is the M17x TT 4.0L V8 which again has more more power than the prior engine.

BMW and Porsche are similar, the MB example is illustrative only.

When in doubt, add more power. And torque.

No. The difference between F80 and G80 RWD in 0-60 is primarily the traction control. The new DSC works at rates near 1 KHz. Compare 0-60 and 5-60 for G80 6MT RWD and F80 6MT RWD.

OP literally gave this exact example as a question. More power in a traction limited exercise gives diminishing returns.

[XutvJet]

Cars have gotten so fast because of torque. Whether it comes from the fat power curve of turbo motors which are common place now and/or torque multiplication of 8+ speed automatics plus AWD. Turbos give a TON of power under the curve compared to naturally aspirated motors. It's why a 400whp BMW is quicker/faster than a 450whp Mustang 5.0. Traction control as little to do with why cars have gotten so quick. AWD is largely the traction advantage and is why so many performance cars utilize it these days. The only 2wd cars that can really launch hard are mid and rear engine. Traction control's biggest improvement is keeping cars on the road, safety, etc. Most launch control systems are pretty terrible and result in worse 0-60 times in 2wd cars.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Cars have gotten so fast because of torque. Whether it comes from the fat power curve of turbo motors which are common place now and/or torque multiplication of 8+ speed automatics plus AWD. Turbos give a TON of power under the curve compared to naturally aspirated motors. It's why a 400whp BMW is quicker/faster than a 450whp Mustang 5.0. Traction control as little to do with why cars have gotten so quick. AWD is largely the traction advantage and is why so many performance cars utilize it these days. The only 2wd cars that can really launch hard are mid and rear engine. Traction control's biggest improvement is keeping cars on the road, safety, etc. Most launch control systems are pretty terrible and result in worse 0-60 times in 2wd cars.

Completely wrong if we are talking about actually new cars and 0-60. The first reply in this thread was correct and you can easily investigate the numbers yourself. You do not seem to understand how torque management and traction control work in modern cars.

Broadly correct if we are talking quarter mile in general or cars before 991.2 or G series BMWs.

[Our03z4]

My A8 stock does 0-60 in 3.9 with zero wheel slip and only 460hp, makes no sense how an almost 5k lb car can do it. I get 31mpg on the highway ta boot.

My Z4 3.0si that weighs 3k and can only do 5.1? Heck even my 19 F250 stock gasser does 0-60 in 6 and something seconds.

[G30M]

also need to know the power curve.

say a car in 1990 that is light has 600 hp but 0-100 is 5s , well maybe it only has 600hp for 0.1s and the rest of the rev range is much lower hp,

say a car today that is heavy has 500hp but it has 100% of that power for 2000rpms, and 80% of that power for another 2000rpm for example

- hp is just a number for marketing, need to know when it produces that power as well as the number. then you have drivetrain losses. then you add gearing, traction, tires, etc

- 0-100 is as much about traction as power

[G30M]

i forgot drive train losses ... added

[chassis]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Cars have gotten so fast because of torque. Whether it comes from the fat power curve of turbo motors which are common place now and/or torque multiplication of 8+ speed automatics plus AWD. Turbos give a TON of power under the curve compared to naturally aspirated motors. It's why a 400whp BMW is quicker/faster than a 450whp Mustang 5.0. Traction control as little to do with why cars have gotten so quick. AWD is largely the traction advantage and is why so many performance cars utilize it these days. The only 2wd cars that can really launch hard are mid and rear engine. Traction control's biggest improvement is keeping cars on the road, safety, etc. Most launch control systems are pretty terrible and result in worse 0-60 times in 2wd cars.

This is completely right.

Consider the dead flat (“fat”) torque curve of many engines today, this comes from fuel injection management (clipping) until the natural limitation of the engine at high rpm. This is the very reason engines can be tuned, because the manufacturer left more power and torque on the table. One very easy example to consider is the pre-facelift X166 MB GL450 V8 and the GL550 V8, in which the only difference in powertrain was from tuning the very same M278 V8. Consider also the various Porsche/Audi EA825 4.0L TT V8 installations from RSQ8 to Urus.

Back to torque and power. F=ma always and forever. F in this case comes from torque, always and forever. Torque from the powertrain minus torque lost from diverse reasons is dominated by torque supplied from the powertrain. Wheelspin management is yestertech and old news, it’s not new news. High specific torque at low rpm is new news.

[10"]

computerized transmissions, traction control, launch control.

at the same time drivers have become total garbage driving around their fast appliances!

they sit down, mash the throttle, and think they are driving well lol.

[10"]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I was going to sum this up by saying the real answer... 0 - 60 times has dropped significantly in the past 10 years because manufacturers have taken the driver out of the process. But then, you know, it's really 1 killa'hertz traction control.

Exactly—and peeps end up with the totally false delusion that they are “good drivers”

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by No Boost

G80 Comp:

C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 3.5 sec
100 mph: 7.6 sec
1/4-Mile: 11.6 sec @ 124 mph
130 mph: 12.8 sec
150 mph: 18.3 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.2 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 4.5 sec

A full second of a difference between the two tests is substantial but that's not to say the car is slow by any means. That 124 mph trap is a respectable 4-5 mph gain over the previous F80.

some more 5-60 times:

g80 comp xdrive - 4.4

2019 M4cs - 3.9

Model 3 performance - 3.3

2008 Ferrari 458 Italia: 3.5

2021 Ferrari 488 Pista : 3.4

2018 Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 3.1

2021 Bugatti Chiron Super Sport: 3.2

2015 Chevy Corvette C7 Z06: 3.2

https://grandtournation.com/cars/her...ket-right-now/

[2023G87M2]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

some more 5-60 times:

g80 comp xdrive - 4.4

2019 M4cs - 3.9

Model 3 performance - 3.3

2008 Ferrari 458 Italia: 3.5

2021 Ferrari 488 Pista : 3.4

2018 Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 3.1

2021 Bugatti Chiron Super Sport: 3.2

2015 Chevy Corvette C7 Z06: 3.2

https://grandtournation.com/cars/her...ket-right-now/

Wow. So the supra equals a g80 in a stoplight race without launch control or abusive brake holding?

I somewhat knew this. The weight difference and wheelbase difference is enough to show this. Inb4 g80 owners get upset. Yes I know g80 has higher trap times and lap times. 🙄

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by 2023G87M2

Wow. So the supra equals a g80 in a stoplight race without launch control or abusive brake holding?

I somewhat knew this. The weight difference and wheelbase difference is enough to show this. Inb4 g80 owners get upset. Yes I know g80 has higher trap times and lap times. 🙄

yup. can't cheat physics. asking a 3.0 motor to pull a 3900 pound barge is a tall task. they ran larger turbos to make more peak power rather than low end.

the supra is lighter and has a smaller more responsive turbo.

a more fair comparison to the g80cx would be the gtr (weight wise) but even than has a better 5-60 due to an extra 800cc of displacement and possibly better gearing even though its only a 6 speed.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

some more 5-60 times:

g80 comp xdrive - 4.4

2019 M4cs - 3.9

Model 3 performance - 3.3

2008 Ferrari 458 Italia: 3.5

2021 Ferrari 488 Pista : 3.4

2018 Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 3.1

2021 Bugatti Chiron Super Sport: 3.2

2015 Chevy Corvette C7 Z06: 3.2

https://grandtournation.com/cars/her...ket-right-now/

i don't understand this

why the G80 so slow? my M340 does 0-60 in 4.1 (extrapolated from 0-100ks in 4.3)

[2023G87M2]

Originally Posted by g21

i don't understand this

why the G80 so slow? my M340 does 0-60 in 4.1 (extrapolated from 0-100ks in 4.3)

The g80 is faster. The list are not 0-60 times. They are 5-60 times without launch control.

That puts the z4 as the fastest current non m bmw m performance car for 5-60 not counting the 30i, 50i, or 60i

[G30M]

so put it in gear, drive at 5mph for a bit, then gas it?

that probably shows the lack of torque in the S58 under 3000rpm

i wish i had one, i can test it for you guys. still doesn't make sense.

[2023G87M2]

Originally Posted by g21

so put it in gear, drive at 5mph for a bit, then gas it?

that probably shows the lack of torque in the S58 under 3000rpm

i wish i had one, i can test it for you guys. still doesn't make sense.

Pretty much. Roll to 5ish and hit the gas. No brake torque. That puts the 2.8 sec m4 AWD at 4.4, slower than the m2 comp with a manual and on par with a supra and z4

[G30M]

i looked at the dyno charts between the m3 and the z4 - same torque 2000-3000rpm

still doesn't make sense

i think they weren't in 1st gear and needed time to kick down or just weren't in 1st gear and slow to pull

[2023G87M2]

Originally Posted by g21

i looked at the dyno charts between the m3 and the z4 - same torque 2000-3000rpm

still doesn't make sense

i think they weren't in 1st gear and needed time to kick down or just weren't in 1st gear and slow to pull

That doesn't make sense and is not true.

The test is thoroughly standardized and done in the same method each time.

They definitely would have used sport mode with the most aggressive shift. And what gear other than 1st would they be at 5mph? 2nd? And even then that'd make no sense as they have many 5-60 times. The z4/supra does weigh like 400-500lbs less and has shorter wheelbase and height so less drag and less weight helps alot

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by g21

i looked at the dyno charts between the m3 and the z4 - same torque 2000-3000rpm

still doesn't make sense

i think they weren't in 1st gear and needed time to kick down or just weren't in 1st gear and slow to pull

dyno doesn't tell you throttle response

when you punch it in a g80 the turbos aren't spooled. you are only getting a 3.0 liter 6 cylinder's power. after a short delay the exhaust gasses from the engine have spooled the turbo, which is causes it to compress air into the engine and now the engine can make more power

this is what turbo lag is.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

dyno doesn't tell you throttle response

when you punch it in a g80 the turbos aren't spooled. you are only getting a 3.0 liter 6 cylinder's power. after a short delay the exhaust gasses from the engine have spooled the turbo, which is causes it to compress air into the engine and now the engine can make more power

this is what turbo lag is.

With a modern smallish-turbo tapping right off the exhaust manifold or hot v or one of many other modern designs like air-water intercool, this is pretty much instant. When its not is when you got all sorts of long intake pipes routing all around or Subaru with their old remote-turbo setup where theres the long exhaust pipe that has to wrap around the engine. Adding a larger turbo just makes this worse. You can still get gobbs of power, but this is when you have to rev way up first and when there’s a significant delay. The “delay” in modern setups is more throttle lag (programed) and regular auto trans behavior (its not in the “punch it chewie” gear).