[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by ptgltw

I agree. I’m a believer in their old advertising slogan.

There is no substitute.

Especially the 911, it’s the best all around sports car ever made.

And I haven’t even mentioned the GT cars yet.

I have a 944 race car but for the street there is nothing like a 911. For Porsche it’s 911 ( the best ) or nothing for me. I’ll pass on a gt4

For street driving, a 992 Carrera S with the 7 speed manual I imagine is pretty fantastic. Until there is a 992 911 GT3 Touring, its the one to have. I think the new GT3 that just debuted, I imagine is excellent, but I just can't see why I would drive that on the street and not just buy a 991.2 GT3 Touring.

But then again, the M2 CS is really really great, probably as enjoyable as a 992 Carrera S MT plus you get the added practicality of a backseat, some trunk space. Plus its 55k cheaper then the spec Carrera S i would option.

For someone that doesn't go the the track at all, the M2 CS is a tough package to beat. I would definitely have a vintage 993 though (and considered it), throw the new Porsche Classic radio with carplay in it. That would also just be brilliant on the road.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Moflow

I had a 350z before my M2 comp, and they overlapped by a couple of months so I had lots of opportunities to drive them back to back. The 350z was way worse and way slower, but it did feel more like a classic sports car, thanks in large part to the seating position and feel of being lower to the ground. That said, the Z is based on the generic FM platform. I’ve driven a Z and a Miata back to back and the Miata is WAY more of a sports car than the Z.

It’s a continuum, you can draw your lines wherever. And also, where a particular car is on that continuum doesn’t really say anything about how good of a car or even performance car something is.

Which is why this a dumb discussion... if someone looks at say an M5 and doesn't know anything about cars and you tell them a 5 series is a sports car... they will laugh... not knowing that its a 600 HP tank that will runs laps around 80% of sports cars on any track... is it a boat; yes? Is it more a sports car than most would remotely think of a sports car...? sure is.

[ptgltw]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

For street driving, a 992 Carrera S with the 7 speed manual I imagine is pretty fantastic. Until there is a 992 911 GT3 Touring, its the one to have. I think the new GT3 that just debuted, I imagine is excellent, but I just can't see why I would drive that on the street and not just buy a 991.2 GT3 Touring.

But then again, the M2 CS is really really great, probably as enjoyable as a 992 Carrera S MT plus you get the added practicality of a backseat, some trunk space. Plus its 55k cheaper then the spec Carrera S i would option.

For someone that doesn't go the the track at all, the M2 CS is a tough package to beat. I would definitely have a vintage 993 though (and considered it), throw the new Porsche Classic radio with carplay in it. That would also just be brilliant on the road.

The most beautiful / sexy car I ever owned was a 993 C2S. Arena Red ( burgundy ) with sport seats. Lowered with LM wheels. Pure sex

Friend offered the can’t refuse price of over $100 g and it had 66k miles on it. I can always buy it back but he is enjoying for now.

[classj]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Which is why this a dumb discussion... if someone looks at say an M5 and doesn't know anything about cars and you tell them a 5 series is a sports car... they will laugh... not knowing that its a 600 HP tank that will runs laps around 80% of sports cars on any track... is it a boat yet? Is it more a sports car than most would remotely think of a sports car... sure is.

I think it’s important to toss performance out of the equation.

We are in a world where many turbo 4000-5000lb 4 door sedans and SUV’s can toast most cars built in the past decade.

Speed is a commodity at this point. A 63 Jag XKE is a sports car. I could care less how fast one is.

M3, M5, Panamera Turbo, M8 etc are more of what the Chargers and GTO’s of the 60’s have morphed into. Practical. Fast. Sleeper unless you know what you are looking at. They have their place.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by classj

I think it’s important to toss performance out of the equation.

We are in a world where many turbo 4000-5000lb 4 door sedans and SUV’s can toast most cars built in the past decade.

Speed is a commodity at this point. A 63 Jag XKE is a sports car. I could care less how fast one is.

M3, M5, Panamera Turbo, M8 etc are more of what the Chargers and GTO’s of the 60’s have morphed into. Practical. Fast. Sleeper unless you know what you are looking at. They have their place.

You absolutely need to use performance as part of the equation... the definition of sports car is changing and changing rapidly.

By everyone's definition on this thread... most would probably say the Subaru BRZ is a thoroughbred sports car... it's small, light, compact, only 6mt, features a high revving NA motor and is made to handle...

That's fine and dandy... until an electric Tesla Model 3 blows right pass them... is the Model 3, a sports car? Hell no... but it is a pedestrian automobile for the masses right now and you see where this is going the moment someone sees a race happen. This is why the tesla stop light races are stupid and do great for youtube clicks but the reality is that is what the masses believe.

[(K)]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You absolutely need to use performance as part of the equation... the definition of sports car is changing and changing rapidly.

By everyone's definition on this thread... most would probably say the Subaru BRZ is a thoroughbred sports car... it's small, light, compact, only 6mt, features a high revving NA motor and is made to handle...

That's fine and dandy... until an electric Tesla Model 3 blows right pass them... is the Model 3, a sports car? Hell no... but it is a pedestrian automobile for the masses right now and you see where this is going the moment someone sees a race happen. This is why the tesla stop light races are stupid and do great for youtube clicks but the reality is that is what the masses believe.

We're kind of on a slippery slope because I feel we're all in agreement that horsepower does not a sports car make (or rather, horsepower ALONE). However overall performance itself is kind of thrown out the window too as a determining factor from your scenario above (which I also agree with).

Hypothetically speaking, let's say we toss a 5000lb, 700hp vehicle around the 'Ring and it'll finish a hot lap under 7 minutes. Without further context of said vehicle, we know it obviously performs by today's standards but what makes (or doesn't make) it a sports car?

Side note: you know what's great about this thread? We've already answered the question at hand of what a CS is or isn't but now we're going to where the money is. What IS a sports car today; in the future?

Lastly. Again. An Accord is not a sports car, if you're reading this, Jim.

[f80_MG]

Originally Posted by ptgltw

For Porsche it’s 911 ( the best ) or nothing for me. I’ll pass on a gt4

Completely genuine question, where does the upcoming GT4 RS fall for you in that hierarchy?
Or still not a contender because it's not a 911 ?

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by (K)

We're kind of on a slippery slope because I feel we're all in agreement that horsepower does not a sports car make (or rather, horsepower ALONE). However overall performance itself is kind of thrown out the window too as a determining factor from your scenario above (which I also agree with).

Hypothetically speaking, let's say we toss a 5000lb, 700hp vehicle around the 'Ring and it'll finish a hot lap under 7 minutes. Without further context of said vehicle, we know it obviously performs by today's standards but what makes (or doesn't make) it a sports car?

Side note: you know what's great about this thread? We've already answered the question at hand of what a CS is or isn't but now we're going to where the money is. What IS a sports car today; in the future?

Lastly. Again. An Accord is not a sports car, if you're reading this, Jim.

Sounds like we agree... you want to have a good laugh?

Look at the Audi RSQ8... Is it a sports car ?

Well it does lap the 'ring faster than an m3 comp

[ptgltw]

Originally Posted by f80_MG

Completely genuine question, where does the upcoming GT4 RS fall for you in that hierarchy?
Or still not a contender because it's not a 911 ?

I’ve never even heard of a GT4 RS.

Without even knowing about it it will no doubt he an awesome car. Just not as good or better as a GT3 RS.

The M2 CS is the best Bmw has to offer in the sports car market.

I want the manufacturers best effort

Bmw got away with making a 2 series better than a 4 series due to the engine change in 2021 for the m3/4 otherwise it doesn’t happen

Porsche will never make the cayman better than the 911

This is where Bmw messes up. They should have made the m2 the m3 and the m3 the m4 and the m4 the m2 lol... being a little sarcastic here but not far from the truth.

Anyway Great timing for us with the M2 CS I doubt Bmw will let that happen again. Making the m2 CS their flagship car

[msmatt]

Some really great banter here. So I’ll add to my original post.

BMW historically has been genius at taking a “regular” car and making it perform while retaining all the goodness of a conventional car. Trunk, space, 4 doors etc.

Porsche has been genius at taking a “sports” car and making it perform and livable. I have a 991.2 GT3 and its such an easy car to drive and live with, easily a daily driver if you so choose.

I think that’s why these discussions get so heated is both marques do a great job of bending the rules and they actually end up in similar spaces, but if you came from one end or the other it might be hard to wrap your head around it.

My first porsche was a Cayman S and it was one of my worst purchases. Was it a bad car? No, not at all, but it was so easy and livable that I drove it everyday and it became boring. Before that I had a Lotus Elise, which is not boring, nor livable, and I traded that Cayman for a 997 GT3 RS. Just like you must go M (or Alpina...) with a BMW, in the world of porsche you must go to the special cars to keep them away from the everyday.

Great discussion!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Your answer is; it depends.
Years ago I did quite a bit of research on the origin of what people call a "Sport Car" by today's standards, and I have very old books detailing it well. I say "by today's standards" because the term itself is very old. But many enthusiasts, myself among them, consider the first modern Sport Cars to be British in origin, and follow the model below.
- Sports Car
- GT (Grand Touring Car)
- Muscle Car
- Super Car
- Hyper Car
- Race Car
For the moment, forget about Super Cars, Hyper Cars, and Race Cars, and see that the top 3 older names are distinct for a reason; the Sports Car is on one end of the spectrum, the Muscle Car on the other, and the GT Car right in the middle where it tries to give you the best of both worlds.
The definitions of the top 3 look like this:
- Sports Car - 2-seat, open top, manual, F/R or M/R, lightweight, radio, and with the major purpose being handling and fun
- GT Car - A balance between a Sports Car and a Muscle Car, a "have your cake and eat it too" sort of car
- Muscle Car - 4-seat, hard top, automatic, F/R, weight nor handling nor radio a concern, with the major purpose being ¼-mile prowess
These aren't absolute definitions, but they are the best I can find, and they make sense to me, so I use them.
So, in answer to your question; the M2 is a GT Car (to me).

Missing: "Exotics".

[ptgltw]

Originally Posted by msmatt

Some really great banter here. So I’ll add to my original post.

BMW historically has been genius at taking a “regular” car and making it perform while retaining all the goodness of a conventional car. Trunk, space, 4 doors etc.

Porsche has been genius at taking a “sports” car and making it perform and livable. I have a 991.2 GT3 and its such an easy car to drive and live with, easily a daily driver if you so choose.

I think that’s why these discussions get so heated is both marques do a great job of bending the rules and they actually end up in similar spaces, but if you came from one end or the other it might be hard to wrap your head around it.

My first porsche was a Cayman S and it was one of my worst purchases. Was it a bad car? No, not at all, but it was so easy and livable that I drove it everyday and it became boring. Before that I had a Lotus Elise, which is not boring, nor livable, and I traded that Cayman for a 997 GT3 RS. Just like you must go M (or Alpina...) with a BMW, in the world of porsche you must go to the special cars to keep them away from the everyday.

Great discussion!

Way to capture the essence of the GT3. A sports car that Porsche tweaks to make is a sporty car.

Just like the M2CS is the opposite of that. Pretty much sums up the differences in the cars.

I agree with the "special cars" only theory. Of course only the individual can define what a special car is and it's become the Mantra of my collection.

E30 M3's, E36 M3 Lightweight's, 1997 NAS Defender 90, 2020 M2CS.

IMHO all these cars represent the best the brand had to offer at the time and all three stand the test of time, over and over again. Hell even BMW still compares all their new M cars to the almighty E30 M3. I don't see any other brand marketing their 1988's with their current models.

Honestly, Porsche has set the bar so high, it's almost like the RS market is being watered down slightly. They keep on making one legend after another. Making the last legend feel not as special as the latest one. It's a good problem to have.

It's not often legends are born with BMW, get them while you can. Sorry I use the word legends so much...I am very passionate about these cars. Maybe I should have a shot for everytime I use the word Legend in the future

[classj]

Originally Posted by msmatt

Some really great banter here. So I’ll add to my original post.

BMW historically has been genius at taking a “regular” car and making it perform while retaining all the goodness of a conventional car. Trunk, space, 4 doors etc.

Porsche has been genius at taking a “sports” car and making it perform and livable. I have a 991.2 GT3 and its such an easy car to drive and live with, easily a daily driver if you so choose.

I think that’s why these discussions get so heated is both marques do a great job of bending the rules and they actually end up in similar spaces, but if you came from one end or the other it might be hard to wrap your head around it.

My first porsche was a Cayman S and it was one of my worst purchases. Was it a bad car? No, not at all, but it was so easy and livable that I drove it everyday and it became boring. Before that I had a Lotus Elise, which is not boring, nor livable, and I traded that Cayman for a 997 GT3 RS. Just like you must go M (or Alpina...) with a BMW, in the world of porsche you must go to the special cars to keep them away from the everyday.

Great discussion!

I can relate to this. I drove my 981 CS almost daily for the first year or so of ownership. I quickly lost appreciation for it. Anything driven daily becomes normal and average.

When I ordered my 991.2 T I spec’d it to be the furthest from a daily driver possible. It does not even have a rear defroster.

[classj]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You absolutely need to use performance as part of the equation... the definition of sports car is changing and changing rapidly.

By everyone's definition on this thread... most would probably say the Subaru BRZ is a thoroughbred sports car... it's small, light, compact, only 6mt, features a high revving NA motor and is made to handle...

That's fine and dandy... until an electric Tesla Model 3 blows right pass them... is the Model 3, a sports car? Hell no... but it is a pedestrian automobile for the masses right now and you see where this is going the moment someone sees a race happen. This is why the tesla stop light races are stupid and do great for youtube clicks but the reality is that is what the masses believe.

I hear you. But honestly the world is filled with fast cars right now that are boring to drive. Speed is a commodity. Any size and type of car can be fast. Handle flat. Etc.

A sports car is a sports car in my mind. A 67 Alfa Duetto is still amazing to look at despite its 18 second 1/4 mile.

My 944 has 160hp. Weighs 2700lbs. It’s a sports car. Still turns heads and is fun and amazing to drive.

As a contrast. My daily is a 4300 lb X3 M40i. It would eat the 944 along with a ton of other cars. The nice thing is it is really fun to drive compared to other similar SUV’s.

[Alpine*]

Originally Posted by classj

I can relate to this. I drove my 981 CS almost daily for the first year or so of ownership. I quickly lost appreciation for it. Anything driven daily becomes normal and average.

When I ordered my 991.2 T I spec’d it to be the furthest from a daily driver possible. It does not even have a rear defroster.

OT, I had a 991.2 Carrera T also, no back seat and light weight glass (hence no rear demister) RWS and best of all Manual, loved it.

Pls return to regular broadcasting, good reading!

[(K)]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Sounds like we agree... you want to have a good laugh?

Look at the Audi RSQ8... Is it a sports car ?

Well it does lap the 'ring faster than an m3 comp

I did laugh at that prospect actually

It's crazy to think that we've come so far with advancements that a Toyota Sienna can outperform a Ferrari Dino in almost all metrics but only one of those is a sports car. I guess it's the context and engineering intent of the car.

Ergo, 205hp and a 8 minute 'Ring time (sports car) vs 591hp and 7 minutes (not sports car).

In the context of our Cayman and CS comparison, if we're splitting hairs and I had to label one and not the other, then it would go to the P car. CS vs Camry.

Camry all day long.

That's a dig on the CS owners in case it gets missed

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You absolutely need to use performance as part of the equation... the definition of sports car is changing and changing rapidly.

By everyone's definition on this thread... most would probably say the Subaru BRZ is a thoroughbred sports car... it's small, light, compact, only 6mt, features a high revving NA motor and is made to handle...

That's fine and dandy... until an electric Tesla Model 3 blows right pass them... is the Model 3, a sports car? Hell no... but it is a pedestrian automobile for the masses right now and you see where this is going the moment someone sees a race happen. This is why the tesla stop light races are stupid and do great for youtube clicks but the reality is that is what the masses believe.

But a Porsche 914 would get its doors blown off in a straight line by plenty of sedans in the 70s. Same with basically every MG made. Same with plenty of lotuses. Sports cars have often been slower in a straight line than more pedestrian models, it’s not a new phenomenon.

[AxM2CS]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

If owners put it on a track and race it, it is by very definition a motorsports car.

I'm with you, Jimjamz. While we're getting philosophical and all. Sports car is as Sports car does.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by msmatt

is the M2 a sports car?

Originally Posted by mfarrzhp

It definitely blurs the lines of sports car definition.

Originally Posted by ///M2CS

a high-performance toy that shines with its consistency and versatility

Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge

Not a sports car.

Originally Posted by classj

I hate definitions but I tend to agree.

Originally Posted by Romo

M2CS is a sporty car, far too refined and heavy for a pure sports car.

Originally Posted by ASAP

less of a sports car than say a Nissan 370z...

Originally Posted by jbse39

sporty cars, sort of like multi-role fighters

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

a GT Car (to me).

Originally Posted by ptgltw

With a couple mods, it can become quite the Sports car.

Originally Posted by buckybadger

It's a sporty car.

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I go with sporty car that gets the accolades it does because of how it blurs the line between sporty car and sports car.

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Its definitely a sporty car and not a sports car

Originally Posted by killerdeck

provides other versatility that a true sports car just can not

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

If owners put it on a track and race it, it is by very definition a motorsports car.

The "S" in "CS" stands for "Sport" (or was it "$port" ?) (see here).

For your insurer, the M2 CS will quite likely be pigeon holed as a "sports car".

Ultimate litmus test: show an M2 CS to an 8-yr old kid who likes matchbox cars and ask what type of car it is.

Anyways: It's a bird... It's a plane... It's a high performance car...It's an ///M - a class or pedigree of its own.

[sdhotwn]

[msmatt]

Originally Posted by ptgltw

Way to capture the essence of the GT3. A sports car that Porsche tweaks to make is a sporty car.

Just like the M2CS is the opposite of that. Pretty much sums up the differences in the cars.

I agree with the "special cars" only theory. Of course only the individual can define what a special car is and it's become the Mantra of my collection.

E30 M3's, E36 M3 Lightweight's, 1997 NAS Defender 90, 2020 M2CS.

IMHO all these cars represent the best the brand had to offer at the time and all three stand the test of time, over and over again. Hell even BMW still compares all their new M cars to the almighty E30 M3. I don't see any other brand marketing their 1988's with their current models.

Honestly, Porsche has set the bar so high, it's almost like the RS market is being watered down slightly. They keep on making one legend after another. Making the last legend feel not as special as the latest one. It's a good problem to have.

It's not often legends are born with BMW, get them while you can. Sorry I use the word legends so much...I am very passionate about these cars. Maybe I should have a shot for everytime I use the word Legend in the future

So true!

[msmatt]

Originally Posted by classj

I can relate to this. I drove my 981 CS almost daily for the first year or so of ownership. I quickly lost appreciation for it. Anything driven daily becomes normal and average.

When I ordered my 991.2 T I spec’d it to be the furthest from a daily driver possible. It does not even have a rear defroster.

Exactly!