[heavyD^2]

The most compelling examples of “old BMW” are paywalled, limited to halo models like the M4 CSL.

I don't understand this comment. The M4 CSL is an M4 on weight reduction. That's it. Same engine, transmission, body, interior, everything except minor weight reduction and some fine tuning. It's an opinion piece and he makes some valid points on BMW's current direction but I think this comment is kind of yelling at clouds. Current M cars are fantastic. The M3 is best performing car in its class and you can only judge today's cars on where they are relative to their competition in today's market. Judging today's cars to cars of 10-20 years ago is a fool's errand. The industry has moved on and it's never going back. Ever. People with the mindset of pining for the past wallow in constant misery. Pining for for something that doesn't exist anymore. We live such short lives in the big picture and I simply don't understand why someone would want to burden themselves with a constant dark cloud over their heads. It's not today's BMW's that are the problem. The company is doing better than ever. The problem is people that stubbornly refuse to accept that what they like is no longer available.

[Rocket455]

Originally Posted by B58-M340iX

Too bad we can't have this for an M2:

Stunning! Well-proportioned, excellent flow. Lately, I feel like almost all 3rd party renders are so much better than a majority of BMW official designs.

[________]

Originally Posted by B58-M340iX

Too bad we can't have this for an M2:

You can, and it’s even cheaper than the current new M2…

[bmw1racer]

Originally Posted by chris719

Are you going to stick with an E85 forever? I'm not disputing what you say, I just don't know who is doing a better job with brand new cars.

I'll try to keep my E82 as long as I can. I had my E36 for 18 years until I traded it in (in retrospect, I shoulda kept it) for the E82.

Yeah, nothing in my price range looks appealing at the moment. My brother's son has an E92 that he doesn't drive much... Could be a worthwhile project car. My brother had a Fjord Blue 1975 2002, but I didn't have the money to buy it off him.

[Rono63]

I'm old enough to remember when manufacturers went from manual steering racks to hydraulic assisted and the automotive world thought it was the end of good handling cars, num feel that would never be good. Now we have the same going from hydraulic to electric assisted. It may not be good for the enthusiast but it's better for the average driver.

Don't even get me started about the loss of feel and control when they switch to drive by wire throttle control. Didn't use to need "Sport +", you just mashed the peddle more.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Rono63

I'm old enough to remember when manufacturers went from manual steering racks to hydraulic assisted and the automotive world thought it was the end of good handling cars, numb feel that would never be good. Now we have the same going from hydraulic to electric assisted. It may not be good for the enthusiast but it's better for the average driver.

Can't please everyone. I sense BMW are trying to please the majority.

To think BMW introduced EPS over 15 years ago and implemented it in E9x 3-series models (in Europe ) circa 2007. 15-years ago! And we still have EPS discussed as if it is the end of our BMW world.

Just think of how many million BMW vehicles are now running around with EPS, and most users don't give it a thought.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Just think of how many million BMW vehicles are now running around with EPS, and most users don't give it a thought.

Ignorance versus knowledge!
I drive new BMWs every day as part of my job. When it's time to go home, I'm enjoying my 2013 128i Msport 6-speed with its perfect steering feedback, normally aspirated inline-6, and simple iDrive interface with Bluetooth and Music Collection hard-drive. I see little advantage in all the new technology and none in the feedback they don't supply for the actual driving experience.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I sense BMW are trying to please the majority.

Of course. It's just that there's a group of us that would like a car or two as an option from them that didn't go the same direction as all the others. Just one that didn't get bigger, or heavier, or tech laden, or where they didn't *intentionally* numb the feedback through the steering wheel. The company used to be focused on this fun factor across the board. They don't have to remain that way forever, but we're wishing there would at least be one option left for us. The new M2 was a great candidate but... sadly no. There's a tiny chance the Z4 can get a stick, but feeling anything through the wheel is somewhat unlikely and the world's biggest ipad for a dash is somewhat likely. And thus you are about at the end of the road.

If there was a car for us, there would be even more sales.

[________]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Can't please everyone. I sense BMW are trying to please the majority.

To think BMW introduced EPS over 15 years ago and implemented it in E9x 3-series models (in Europe ) circa 2007. 15-years ago! And we still have EPS discussed as if it is the end of our BMW world.

Just think of how many million BMW vehicles are now running around with EPS, and most users don't give it a thought.

What’s with your constant use of “if many like it it must be good”?
First with using sales figures to justify good direction (of course that is true for a business, but not for a target audience) and now with saying “most don’t give it a thought”.

That was the EXACT rationale used by BMW to move to front-wheel drive. In clinics with owners, most didn’t even know which wheels moved the car… so, in essence “most users don’t give it a thought”… in this sense, is BMW going FWD. a good direction?

The answer is yes from a business perspective.
A resounding no from an enthusiast’s perspective, which is what THIS thread is about.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Ignorance versus knowledge!

How many users really want or need the knowledge?

With all the complaints about BMW's heavy steering over the years, many see it as totally acceptable. Light, precise and... it's just 'steering' anyway.

Even on this forum, we can read many users prefer the lighter Comfort steering, compared to the Sport calibrations.

Enthusiasts? We can debate the finer nuances of steering forever.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Onesie

A resounding no from an enthusiast’s perspective, which is what THIS thread is about.

BMW would not survive with just the enthusiast. We have to face that BMW decided years ago to build a bigger business, which requires a wider appeal than the BMW enthusiast.

The world has moved on from the days of the E30, (or whatever), whether we as enthusiasts like it or not.

I can wax lyrical about "the good old days" of BMW, including the E30. I simply don't live there anymore and still enjoy driving my BMW of choice. If I didn't, I'd move on, either to another BMW of choice, or elsewhere.

I also add that many users buy into BMW models who aren't enthusiasts. If they are the biggest customer base, they are listened to more than the enthusiast.

[________]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

BMW would not survive with just the enthusiast. We have to face that BMW decided years ago to build a bigger business, which requires a wider appeal than the BMW enthusiast.

The world has moved on from the days of the E30, (or whatever), whether we as enthusiasts like it or not.

I can wax lyrical about "the good old days" of BMW, including the E30. I simply don't live there anymore and still enjoy driving my BMW of choice. If I didn't, I'd move on, either to another BMW of choice, or elsewhere.

I also add that many users buy into BMW models who aren't enthusiasts. If they are the biggest customer base, they are listened to more than the enthusiast.

Your entire post can be summarized by the title of this thread and magazine article. That is literally what it says in one simple sentence.

[Theruleslawyer]

Most people buying a car these days are looking for a way to remove themselves from the driving experience. More autonomous features. more tech. more isolation. They ideally want to be able to scroll their socials while the car does the work. It used to be good dynamic was a value add since it made the attention you had to pay to the car have some payback. Now its just additional harshness to interrupt them from what they really want to do.

Safety, performance, and even fuel economy is demanding more layers between the driver and the car too. In new cars you don't directly control anything.

It doesn't help that increasing traffic and things like automated enforcement making having any fun on public roads without making a long trip out of the city harder and harder.

All of it really is antithetical to owning a drivers car. Its how you get things like Porsche and Lamborghini making SUVs.

So yah. Hardcore enthusiasts aren't really a target market anymore. It'll only get worse too as automation get better. I'm kinda hoping it makes actual sports cars more extreme. You get the automated sofas for the proletariat and then hard edged sports cars because they won't have to make excuses to people looking to buy them anymore.

[Mavus]

seems like they lost their balls when they put tight pants bean counters in charge



need to wake up and have fun

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Of course. It's just that there's a group of us that would like a car or two as an option from them that didn't go the same direction as all the others. Just one that didn't get bigger, or heavier, or tech laden, or where they didn't *intentionally* numb the feedback through the steering wheel. The company used to be focused on this fun factor across the board. They don't have to remain that way forever, but we're wishing there would at least be one option left for us. The new M2 was a great candidate but... sadly no. There's a tiny chance the Z4 can get a stick, but feeling anything through the wheel is somewhat unlikely and the world's biggest ipad for a dash is somewhat likely. And thus you are about at the end of the road.

If there was a car for us, there would be even more sales.

Yeah remember the days when nobody modified their BMW At least give the M2 a chance my man. You say you want something fun but if you swear it off before it’s even released, you might be depriving yourself

[x622]

Originally Posted by DDD31

I’m also not in love with BMW’s direction for the future. I understand that BMW is in business to make money and they seem to be doing a good job catering to the masses.

As for myself, none of the upcoming BMWs interest me in the least. From the ungodly huge grills to any of the SUVs and iX models, I just can’t even remotely get excited about the upcoming BMWs.

Unfortunately my M5 will probably be my last new BMW and it makes me sad after being a lifelong BMW fanboy to say that.

.

Did you see this?

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...33850798474486

[IsleOfMs]

I've had both and the G20 is a far better car than the E46 M3.

My first quibble is that BMW's marketing shtick is not in line with any car they've ever built. The ultimate "driving machine" surely would have the best interfaces, the best feel. No BMW has ever been able to compete with Porsche in that regard.

The actual promise of a BMW is a sedan/saloon or big heavy coupe that is "grown up" while being "pretty good to drive."

The problem with the E46 M3 is it failed in both regards. It wasn't very fun to drive and it wasn't very comfortable.

Because of the way compromise usually works, you'd expect any car that did one of those things better would do the other one worse. But the G20 is way faster, way more fun to pilot around a narrow mountain road, and way more comfortable.

A purist may scoff at the tech but considering how much better it drives (whether aggressively or sedately) the abundance of tech certainly isn't causing anyone to do without anything more pure to the driving.

About the looks... different strokes right? But let's not pretend old BMWs were good looking

E46 - dull
Z3 - clown shoe
the post E46 era with the Tim Burton Joker smile headlights

They only recently started to look good. Some of the new cars are missing the mark but the M3/M4 grills look great thanks to the way the painted body panels juxtapose directly next to the black openings without a trim.

[VR1]

I should be BMWs target audience, 25 year old six figure corporate earner with cash to burn. I currently own a E92 M3 Competition that I bought a year ago and have tentatively started figuring out what my "next" car in 3-4 years is going to be.

Unfortunately it seems like the brand I loved as a kid simply has nothing to offer me due to a mix of strange styling and a lack of focus on driving dynamics. I drove the G80/G82 on the track at a BMW performance driving event and if the external ugliness didn't turn me off from it, the driving experience did. It's an insanely capable car... but it just felt numb from a mix of lack of steering feedback, lack of soundtrack, and a characterless ZF automatic.

The brand has seemed to moved in a direction of catering to customers who want something fast, sporty, and tech laden, and not necessarily caring as much about driving dynamics. I still think the cars are good to drive (I think the SUVs specifically nail this perfectly as they aren't supposed to have a major focus on dynamics anyways) but they seem to lack the specialness that made BMW, BMW. If I were in the segment for a normal 3 series I would most likely buy an IS, CT4, or Giulia instead since all those cars seem (atleast in reviews) to be more focused on driving dynamics than BMW.

For me, the G8X is ruled out. I was excited by the G87 M2 until I saw that it weighed more than my E92 and had some cross-eyed action going on. Ironically the modern BMW I like the most is actually the Supra; if BMW made a Z4M coupe with a manual and focus on dynamics, I would absolutely buy it in a heartbeat. Otherwise I have my name down on the Emira and am looking at the Cayman range.

[Wheelwright]

In my mind BMWs used to stand for two things:

1) elegant, timeless styling
2) function over form, which was honed to perfection over decades (for example: the best in business, yet unassuming-looking orange rev-meters)

Now we are getting the opposite with many (not all) BMW models:
1) mechanical brutalism instead of elegance in styling
2) form over function (glossy plastics which look good, but don't last, flashy, yet hard-to-use controls, and conspicuous lack of buttons)

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by bmwspice

I've had both and the G20 is a far better car than the E46 M3.

My first quibble is that BMW's marketing shtick is not in line with any car they've ever built. The ultimate "driving machine" surely would have the best interfaces, the best feel. No BMW has ever been able to compete with Porsche in that regard.

The actual promise of a BMW is a sedan/saloon or big heavy coupe that is "grown up" while being "pretty good to drive."

The problem with the E46 M3 is it failed in both regards. It wasn't very fun to drive and it wasn't very comfortable.

Because of the way compromise usually works, you'd expect any car that did one of those things better would do the other one worse. But the G20 is way faster, way more fun to pilot around a narrow mountain road, and way more comfortable.

A purist may scoff at the tech but considering how much better it drives (whether aggressively or sedately) the abundance of tech certainly isn't causing anyone to do without anything more pure to the driving.

About the looks... different strokes right? But let's not pretend old BMWs were good looking

E46 - dull
Z3 - clown shoe
the post E46 era with the Tim Burton Joker smile headlights

They only recently started to look good. Some of the new cars are missing the mark but the M3/M4 grills look great thanks to the way the painted body panels juxtapose directly next to the black openings without a trim.

Wait....what is this??? Someone saying the E46 M3 is worse than the G20? IMPOSSIBLE, they don't know what they are talking about, they aren't a car enthusiast.

In all seriousness. This has been my point. The point is, everyone likes their cars differently. Just because one person doesn't like how it drives, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It also doesn't make them more or less of a car enthusiast.

To put it bluntly with cars, it just is. Nothing more, nothing less. Either you like it, or you don't. You can have the crappiest car in the world to 95% of people in the world, but there will always be those who enjoy the car. Does that mean they can't be considered car enthusiasts? Does that mean they are clearly wrong and have no idea what they are talking about? Simply put, no to both of those.

[tturedraider]

BMW CCA is the largest single-marquee car club in the world. I wonder if that will last. People joined because their BMW stirred their passions. How many of you “new generation” BMW owners are passionate enough about your car and the brand to shell out the cash to join a BMW car club?


Edit: I do know folks are still joining. At least seven forum members have used my member number as their referral just this year.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by bmwspice

A purist may scoff at the tech but considering how much better it drives (whether aggressively or sedately) the abundance of tech certainly isn't causing anyone to do without anything more pure to the driving.

How about electric steering intentionally designed to remove feedback from the wheel?

No one's complaining about parking sensors.

Could certainly do without ipad (no, oops, sorry) idrive 8, but we might end up agreeing that's an opinion, much like one's feelings on having to go through a menu to bump the heat a few degrees, etc. Or heated seat subscriptions.

Like the bumper design, those things add up but are indeed annoyances not specific to the driving experience. That however has been dialed out and is what folks complain about with the tech intrusion (i.e. the steering).