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      08-22-2019, 07:31 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ny325 View Post
Build cars for enthusiast, not the mainstream. Leave that to Honda, and Toyota. If you want all the electronic gizmos, by a apple watch, or iPad. If you need a car to park or drive itself, you shouldn't be driving. If you need a car to shake, when you go outside your lane, you shouldn't be driving. If your to lazy to use a knob for your radio, AC, etc, and prefer gesture control, you shouldn't be driving. Why spend over $40,000 for a base model, 4 cylinder engine, with numb steering, no spare tire, fake exhaust note,( Comes through the speaker system ), runflats that are expensive to replace, noisey, bad tread wear, ( give us a spare tire ), I could go on. BMW, bring back the " Ultimate Driving Machine," and simplify the automobile. BMW's of today don't appeal to me. That's why I'm holding on to my E90. Love the way it drives, and no, it's not the perfect car. However, the steering, and driving dynamics, I love. And by the way, keep the "M " badge for M vehicle.
you mean you want BMW to sell <500k vehicle instead of 2million+ a year?
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      08-22-2019, 08:03 AM   #90
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How many would here seriously consider a new E46 or E39 if it would be available today?
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      08-22-2019, 08:35 AM   #91
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I did but comparing the 2, the S560 still beat all the way. My brother has the 2020 7 series yet still has way less comfortability
Sad to see you go, i really think they are very close.
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      08-22-2019, 08:35 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
you mean you want BMW to sell <500k vehicle instead of 2million+ a year?
Agree, they are not Ferrari or Lamborghini

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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
How many would here seriously consider a new E46 or E39 if it would be available today?
I take E46 M3 CSL any day
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      08-22-2019, 08:46 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
you mean you want BMW to sell <500k vehicle instead of 2million+ a year?
Absolute volume isn't that interesting of a metric unless that's the sole factor one wants to optimize. Perhaps BMW needs to sell millions of vehicles these days to have a chance of meeting profit targets but that's what some are questioning as the strategy. Porsche delivered 200+k cars last year globally, which is a record for them, and are a picture of automotive health at the moment.
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      08-22-2019, 09:19 AM   #94
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post financial crisis, all manufacture need scale, there is a reason Fiat bought Chrysler then... Porsche is low volume, but it's low volume within VW/Audi, other than 911 everything else is pretty "shared" especially with Sedan/SUV..
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      08-22-2019, 09:20 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaly View Post
Absolute volume isn't that interesting of a metric unless that's the sole factor one wants to optimize. Perhaps BMW needs to sell millions of vehicles these days to have a chance of meeting profit targets but that's what some are questioning as the strategy. Porsche delivered 200+k cars last year globally, which is a record for them, and are a picture of automotive health at the moment.
Porsche profita $17.500 per car where BMW only makes $5.000
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-up-to-17-250
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      08-22-2019, 09:26 AM   #96
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How many would here seriously consider a new E46 or E39 if it would be available today?
I've often thought about this idea. But what would they be like, built today, with current safety, emission and CO2 requirements, added technology, etc.? Somehow I think they would disappoint, as they would have to be somewhere between the original and the current models.
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      08-22-2019, 09:34 AM   #97
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Porsche profita $17.500 per car where BMW only makes $5.000
Clearly BMW cars are too cheap.

So are we saying BMW should cut production, make a few dynamic tweaks and bump the price? Say by 25 - 50%, and enthusiasts would see that as forward thinking?

We get so much more BMW for our money these days, I'm not for going back to "the good old days".
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      08-22-2019, 09:37 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
post financial crisis, all manufacture need scale, there is a reason Fiat bought Chrysler then... Porsche is low volume, but it's low volume within VW/Audi, other than 911 everything else is pretty "shared" especially with Sedan/SUV..
Is there evidence that R&D flows in the VW/Audi -> Porsche direction? I know everyone likes to say this, but is there anything to that besides speculation? If anything, I'd imagine Porsche innovation/research trickles down to VW/Audi, not the other direction.
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      08-22-2019, 09:40 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I've often thought about this idea. But what would they be like, built today, with current safety, emission and CO2 requirements, added technology, etc.? Somehow I think they would disappoint, as they would have to be somewhere between the original and the current models.
What if the built them like the i3, instead? CF monocoque, LED headlights, CarPlay. Emissions and CO2 reduced by making the car lighter, driving dynamics improved by making the car lighter, etc.
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      08-22-2019, 09:57 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I've often thought about this idea. But what would they be like, built today, with current safety, emission and CO2 requirements, added technology, etc.? Somehow I think they would disappoint, as they would have to be somewhere between the original and the current models.
well that just means they will be turbo (emission/fuel economy while still making power), and definitely have to be wider (for side impact safety/crush crumble zone), then to make it look "right" proportion it will be longer (given its wider).

Guess the only part will be the old is steering feel and they can probably put more of the M5 stuff into lower range to make it corner better
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      08-22-2019, 09:58 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by vitaly View Post
Is there evidence that R&D flows in the VW/Audi -> Porsche direction? I know everyone likes to say this, but is there anything to that besides speculation? If anything, I'd imagine Porsche innovation/research trickles down to VW/Audi, not the other direction.
Regarding if it's VW/Audi to Porsche or Porsche to VW/Audi, it's shared, which is the point (on cost)
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      08-22-2019, 09:59 AM   #102
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What if the built them like the i3, instead? CF monocoque, LED headlights, CarPlay. Emissions and CO2 reduced by making the car lighter, driving dynamics improved by making the car lighter, etc.
or make a "proper" i8 that would be a real M1 replacement
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      08-22-2019, 10:08 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaly View Post
Is there evidence that R&D flows in the VW/Audi -> Porsche direction? I know everyone likes to say this, but is there anything to that besides speculation? If anything, I'd imagine Porsche innovation/research trickles down to VW/Audi, not the other direction.
Regarding if it's VW/Audi to Porsche or Porsche to VW/Audi, it's shared, which is the point (on cost)
But we're talking about strictly Porsche's financial performance, not VAG as a whole. Obviously having VAG as parent helps with a larger balance sheet, access to (presumably) cheaper financing, and so on. But Porsche itself is thriving. Every car they make they knock it out of the park. Let's see how the Taycan does, which is relatively new ground for them. I predict demand will outpace supply and they'll have a similar margin on that car as well.

Porsche is more expensive than BMW. We can argue about features, tech, build quality and so on differences but the bottom line is customers are willing to pay for it. Reputation is king in this (and other) businesses. If the customer believes they're getting a premium product, they'll pay for it again and again even if objectively it's not as premium as one perceives. But of course they need to deliver as well, and they do. It's a very slim margin for error. If you tarnish it, it'll take a long time to rebuild, if ever.
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      08-22-2019, 10:15 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
or make a "proper" i8 that would be a real M1 replacement
A CF monocoque sport sedan is a far more interesting proposition to me than an M1 replacement. Lots of cars in the supercar sea, but nothing like a CF monocoque sport sedan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaly View Post
But we're talking about strictly Porsche's financial performance, not VAG as a whole. Obviously having VAG as parent helps with a larger balance sheet, access to (presumably) cheaper financing, and so on. But Porsche itself is thriving. Every car they make they knock it out of the park. Let's see how the Taycan does, which is relatively new ground for them. I predict demand will outpace supply and they'll have a similar margin on that car as well.

Porsche is more expensive than BMW. We can argue about features, tech, build quality and so on differences but the bottom line is customers are willing to pay for it. Reputation is king in this (and other) businesses. If the customer believes they're getting a premium product, they'll pay for it again and again even if objectively it's not as premium as one perceives. But of course they need to deliver as well, and they do. It's a very slim margin for error. If you tarnish it, it'll take a long time to rebuild, if ever.
BMW's current strategy is one that leads to lower and lower prices. Commodity goods without differentiation compete on price.
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      08-22-2019, 10:48 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by vitaly View Post
But we're talking about strictly Porsche's financial performance, not VAG as a whole. Obviously having VAG as parent helps with a larger balance sheet, access to (presumably) cheaper financing, and so on. But Porsche itself is thriving. Every car they make they knock it out of the park. Let's see how the Taycan does, which is relatively new ground for them. I predict demand will outpace supply and they'll have a similar margin on that car as well.

Porsche is more expensive than BMW. We can argue about features, tech, build quality and so on differences but the bottom line is customers are willing to pay for it. Reputation is king in this (and other) businesses. If the customer believes they're getting a premium product, they'll pay for it again and again even if objectively it's not as premium as one perceives. But of course they need to deliver as well, and they do. It's a very slim margin for error. If you tarnish it, it'll take a long time to rebuild, if ever.
guess we're just talking about different point, I just don't think BMW can be Porsche without dramatic downsizing

I'm sure some Porsche tech flying to Audi/VW (and vice versa), but for example how does Porsche allocate Porsche Cayenne's R&D, it's entire platform/chassis (PL71/72) is on the same platform that runs VW Touareg/Audi Q7/Porsche Cayenne. If Porsche had to build SUV on its own, not sure how porsche "stand alone" financial will look. Also given how hard VW is going for electric (vs. BMW), I'm sure some of the stuff Taycan used/developing had been in the mind set of "cost sharing"
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      08-22-2019, 12:23 PM   #106
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All the guys driving Accords and Camrys would love to buy a BMW 3 or 4 series if they could afford it - so if BMW wants to sell to those guys, cut the price. Easy peasy. Pay a little more and get a lot more car. And attract Merc customers at the same time for a double-edged sword.
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      08-22-2019, 12:42 PM   #107
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I'll take a E46 sports package with hydraulic steering, xenon's, non runflats, spare tire, heated seats, inline 6, with 280-300HP, and a rearview camera. I don't need all the technology. Keep it simple, and fun to drive.
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      08-22-2019, 12:55 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
guess we're just talking about different point, I just don't think BMW can be Porsche without dramatic downsizing

I'm sure some Porsche tech flying to Audi/VW (and vice versa), but for example how does Porsche allocate Porsche Cayenne's R&D, it's entire platform/chassis (PL71/72) is on the same platform that runs VW Touareg/Audi Q7/Porsche Cayenne. If Porsche had to build SUV on its own, not sure how porsche "stand alone" financial will look. Also given how hard VW is going for electric (vs. BMW), I'm sure some of the stuff Taycan used/developing had been in the mind set of "cost sharing"
I agree. I don't think you can survive in the modern automotive landscape as a "niche" market vehicle unless you're owned by a much larger car company selling to the masses. The modern market requires too much R&D costs to make that feasible. And a lot of those R&D costs are not purely in automotive areas as everyone wants good tech too.

The closest modern example we can look at is Tesla. They started out making electric roadsters trying to chart the top of the driving enthusiasts market. They had to move to the luxury sedan to survive and now are moving to the "cheap" car with the Model 3 to hopefully survive while staying independent... You need volume... Pure and simple.
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      08-22-2019, 01:30 PM   #109
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I'm not sure it has to be all or nothing in terms of volume - you can have a volume model(s) yet differentiate on others. Macan accounts for nearly 50% of Porsche's volume - that's their commodity car.

For BMW, what's their volume car today? I think it's nearly all of them. I just don't know how you can produce a great product when you're spread thin across so many of them (financially and human capital wise). It's like being the GE of cars - decent stuff all around but forgettable in every one. Can survive like that but won't get fanfare in the forums .
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      08-22-2019, 01:39 PM   #110
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BMW should join Tesla. Imagine Tesla powertrain and technology with BMW styling, build quality and production capability.
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