BMW 1-Series Forum (F20) 135i - 1Addicts.com > Second Generation 1 Series Forum > 2012 BMW 1-Series Sporthatch (F20) Discussion > 125d M sport to M135i ?
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      02-19-2014, 08:23 AM   #23
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I think the PSS tyres is the key to the "superior" handling of the M135i. It is after all heavier than a 116i M-Sport, and should normally have slightly more sluggish handling.
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      02-20-2014, 02:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
I think the PSS tyres is the key to the "superior" handling of the M135i. It is after all heavier than a 116i M-Sport, and should normally have slightly more sluggish handling.
I would think tyres are one reason, but recalibrated suspension, chassis geometry, steering ratios and weighting, brakes and diff also play a role.

Put an M135i drive train in a 116d and you'll notice a lot of differences. Huge increased of torque and horsepower place lots of extra demands on a chassis.
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      02-20-2014, 02:33 AM   #25
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Errr

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Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
I agree with the performance part but really can't say the handling bit stands true with me. I have a 125d as my own car and drive an M135i and as of this week a 116d pool car at work for attending client meetings.

Some days I will jump between the 3 covering a couple hundred miles a day. The M135i has adaptive suspenders the other 2 are the garden variety. All 3 of the cars come unstuck at still legal speeds on twisty uneven roads when pushed but the 116d actually feels the most stable as it's harder to get it to that speed. With, I guess less instability being caused by traction issues and weight shifting via acceleration.

There is slightly less roll in the M135i but it's definitely not a different league. I think money spent on handling in the M135i would be money very well spent.
You simply can't drive a 116d like an M135i. On the other hand, you can certainly drive an M135i like a 116d, but its not going to feel particularly special.

Differences in handling include braking into corners, turn-in characteristics, agility, steering feedback, front wheel bite, stability under acceleration, mechanical grip, on-limit stability, transition to oversteer, propensity to understeer especially while braking, ride, stability on poor surfaces, accuracy and ability to adjust line.

Last edited by SteveC; 02-20-2014 at 03:05 AM..
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      02-20-2014, 02:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
I would think tyres are one reason, but recalibrated suspension, chassis geometry, steering ratios and weighting, brakes and diff also play a role.

Put an M135i drive train in a 116d and you'll notice a lot of differences. Huge increased of torque and horsepower place lots of extra demands on a chassis.
I think the chassis geometry is pretty much the same, along with the steering ratio and weighting. The springs and dampers have been changed to suit the added weight. Brakes are the same, and all the F20/F21 have an open differential.
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      02-20-2014, 03:15 AM   #27
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Here you go!

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Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
I think the chassis geometry is pretty much the same, along with the steering ratio and weighting. The springs and dampers have been changed to suit the added weight. Brakes are the same, and all the F20/F21 have an open differential.
http://m-power.com/_open/b/varlink1.jsp?id=2807&lang=en
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      02-20-2014, 04:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
For those who can't be bothered to read the full article

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The suspension settings were completely reworked to match the special tyres and the modifications to the chassis. The application of the steering, the adaptive M running gear and the entire powertrain was completely revised and newly harmonised. The exclusively developed tyre is provided solely as part of a mixed tyre combination. So we didn't have to allow for a whole range of tyres of different dimensions, as is the case with the basic models.

So if I were to order a BMW 125i with adaptive M running gear or sports steering, for example, there would be a difference from the set-up of these components as compared to the BMW M135i?

Correct. It is not possible to give a BMW 125i the same characteristics and performance of the BMW M135i by adding special equipment options. Not only the transverse and longitudinal dynamics are different - the entire character of the BMW M135i is distinct.
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      02-20-2014, 05:47 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
I agree with the performance part but really can't say the handling bit stands true with me. I have a 125d as my own car and drive an M135i and as of this week a 116d pool car at work for attending client meetings.

Some days I will jump between the 3 covering a couple hundred miles a day. The M135i has adaptive suspenders the other 2 are the garden variety. All 3 of the cars come unstuck at still legal speeds on twisty uneven roads when pushed but the 116d actually feels the most stable as it's harder to get it to that speed. With, I guess less instability being caused by traction issues and weight shifting via acceleration.

There is slightly less roll in the M135i but it's definitely not a different league. I think money spent on handling in the M135i would be money very well spent.
I tend to agree with you... when I test drove the M135i a couple of months ago pushing reasonably hard round some nice twisty roads B roads I felt no real difference to my 125i with regard to handling This was in sport mode.

I've been on plenty of spirited drives on these types of roads in my 125i only to look into my mirrors and see someone keeping up with me reasonably well in say a standard family hatchback. This of course doesn't mean the other car is just as quick or handling just as well. Its more down to the level you can really push on road conditions without wrapping it round a tree.

Straight line speed is another matter.
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      02-20-2014, 06:44 AM   #30
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I believe the information about the special setup of the M135i is mostly marketing hype. It might be slightly different to the extent that there are different part numbers, but the major factors for how the car handles is generally similar to the siblings.
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      02-20-2014, 12:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
I believe the information about the special setup of the M135i is mostly marketing hype. It might be slightly different to the extent that there are different part numbers, but the major factors for how the car handles is generally similar to the siblings.
Is that inside information or a calculated guess on your part regarding the M135i not really having any "special setup"? I hear you mention "might" which also may mean "might not"....

I guess the guy responsible for it's development could have been lying of course as regards to aid marketing but suspect BMW's reputation would be greatly damaged if they did nothing and just changed part numbers to fool prospective buyers?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree if it's true or not but just would like to know if you have any information that others may not be aware of?

I think to exploit any chassis difference usually means driving close to it's limits so it probably correct that most drivers won't notice that much difference between some models that "might" or "might not" have been tweaked..
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      02-20-2014, 01:01 PM   #32
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No, it is not based on any internal information. It is basically based on experience with previous generations of cars where they also said the same things. When the enthusiasts start comparing the parts, they are not very different. They are also usually interchangeable, so you can pick and choose between parts from different models to get the handling you want. On an E36, you may choose E30 front control arms, E46 damper mounts with Z3 reinforcements, Z3 steering rack and so on. All in all, the most important factors for the handling is how the weight is distributed in the car, stiffness of suspension (easily replaced) and swaybars (easily replaced) and alignment (easily changed). The weight is more difficult to do something about, and is a handicap for the M135i compared to the low power versions.

I am not saying that they are lying, I just think they are exaggerating the fact that the parts are different. It basically has to be to cope with the extra weight and power.

You will probably find that the heaviest diesel models have a specific setup as well, but the marketing guys save the hype for the M135i.
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      02-20-2014, 05:20 PM   #33
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      02-21-2014, 02:33 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
No, it is not based on any internal information. It is basically based on experience with previous generations of cars where they also said the same things. When the enthusiasts start comparing the parts, they are not very different. They are also usually interchangeable, so you can pick and choose between parts from different models to get the handling you want. On an E36, you may choose E30 front control arms, E46 damper mounts with Z3 reinforcements, Z3 steering rack and so on. All in all, the most important factors for the handling is how the weight is distributed in the car, stiffness of suspension (easily replaced) and swaybars (easily replaced) and alignment (easily changed). The weight is more difficult to do something about, and is a handicap for the M135i compared to the low power versions.

I am not saying that they are lying, I just think they are exaggerating the fact that the parts are different. It basically has to be to cope with the extra weight and power.

You will probably find that the heaviest diesel models have a specific setup as well, but the marketing guys save the hype for the M135i.
Take a standard car, look at all the areas where bigger, stiffer, stronger, less flex, lighter, changes in geometry etc. may improve performance and design new parts. By definition you have exchangeable parts. Every tuner on the Planet makes exchangeable parts, because they're essentially built for the same chassis. Its why amateur tuners can fit a lot of M3 parts onto their standard non-M cars.
And of course the new parts have to cope with the extra power. If you're going to build an altogether faster, more powerful car, you have to make sure the chassis can cope with it. If you want to make a car go faster and handle better, you upgrade engine, suspension and brakes. That's exactly what the MotorSport engineers have done with the M135i. Hype doesn't bring you harder acceleration, higher lateral g-forces, shorter stopping distances and lap times within spitting distance of an M3.

Last edited by SteveC; 02-21-2014 at 02:44 AM..
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      02-21-2014, 02:48 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
And of course the new parts have to cope with the extra power. If you're going to build an altogether faster, more powerful car, you have to make sure the chassis can cope with it. If you want to make a car go faster and handle better, you upgrade engine, suspension and brakes. That's exactly what the MotorSport engineers have done with the M135i. Hype doesn't bring you faster acceleration, higher lateral g-forces and shorter stopping distances.
But are the brakes better? The M135i seems to have the same M-Sport brakes that you can order on the 116d. I think the 116d M-Sport will match the cornering speed of the M135i as well, at least if you use the same tyres. Slightly softer suspension, but also lower weight. The straightline performance is of course unique for the M135i.

The standard M135i parts are pretty good, but not top shelf parts. You can upgrade the brakes further by going for the Performance Brakes. I guess they held back a little bit since it is not a 1M.
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      02-22-2014, 04:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
But are the brakes better? The M135i seems to have the same M-Sport brakes that you can order on the 116d. I think the 116d M-Sport will match the cornering speed of the M135i as well, at least if you use the same tyres. Slightly softer suspension, but also lower weight. The straightline performance is of course unique for the M135i.

The standard M135i parts are pretty good, but not top shelf parts. You can upgrade the brakes further by going for the Performance Brakes. I guess they held back a little bit since it is not a 1M.
With respect, I think we all recognize that its not a full-on M car, missing an M-diff, some horsepower, some special suspension parts and some lightweight body panels. But nor is it a standard 1 Series, rather its somewhere in the middle...with engine, suspension, steering etc. all tweaked by the MotorSport Division engineers to give a package of performance and handling that bears comparison with the Porsche CaymanS and A45 AMG.

There's no doubt that it can be faster and better handling yet, but not at the price point BMW defined for the M135i.
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      02-22-2014, 04:57 PM   #37
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I don't disagree with all that, but the standard 1-series should not be underestimated. With the right options (cheaper than the M135i), my opinion is that it will handle just as well.
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      02-23-2014, 02:55 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
handling that bears comparison with the Porsche CaymanS and A45 AMG.
Handling... compares to A45 AMG perhaps..... but there is no comparison compared to a CaymanS!!
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      02-23-2014, 01:13 PM   #39
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Just to clarify

I misspoke. The comparison I referred to was between an M135i and a Boxster S, not a Cayman S.

To clarify, when I said 'bears comparison with' that's exactly what I meant.....worthy of comparison with i.e when journalists looked for cars to compare to the M135i they picked the A45 AMG and the Porsche Boxster S.

That's not to say that the M135i is better than either car, simply that when looking for a comparison or benchmark.....journalist chose these 2 highly accomplished cars.
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      02-23-2014, 02:54 PM   #40
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The F20/F21 handling is rather unique, being the only RWD hatch in the market. That is why they have to compare it to very different cars. I guess they could pick the Toyota GT86, which would probably make the BMW come up short in the handling contest.
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      04-04-2014, 03:42 AM   #41
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Thanks for all the replies. I have actually purchased an M135i and collect on Monday It's not the one i orignally spotted as that's been sold. Instead It is 4 months old and is fully loaded with options. I cannot wait. I got a good deal on my 125d and on the finance arrangement.

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      04-08-2014, 06:47 AM   #42
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Welp, i got the M135i last night. There is no comparison of these two vehicles. I am delighted with that i've got now in comparison to what i had.

That obviously will differ in opinion from person to person

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