[nachob]

Originally Posted by Artemis

And about the "stripper v. loaded" discussion. All comes down to personal preferences. If you're using the 1M for track purposes only, get it as stripped as possible. But if you and your significant other are using the 1M as daily driver in real life situations, then don't mind to get the comfort of available bells and whistles, even if it increases weight and fuel consumption and only marginally impacts performance and maximum driving joy. No prizes to win by outrunning other cars at traffic-lights. To each his own.

Artemis, great post, just wanted to clarify two small things.

We were talking about whether the M2 will be lighter, better in 4 or 6 cylinder.. more club racer, etc. I chimed in that I'm skeptical because BMW looks at how we buy cars to decide how to build future models. Since most ///M cars are loaded automatics, they look at that when they decide how to build the next car....especially the M2.

I admit again that I've gotten carried away in the past on this and sorry about that, but in this case I was using it to support my skepticism on how club racer the M2 will be since most ///M cars are loaded.

I met with a some BMW folk at Garching that that's what I was told. They also mentioned the M5 to me saying almost 96% of their M5s are ordered in automatic and they don't want to put money in the manual transmission. Only the US forces them to do it because some people still buy them. Once the number get lower, they will no longer offer it.

As far as Dr. Kay, I think someone else might have alluded that he lost his job because of the 1M. I wasn't and don't know either way, I just credit him with getting the 1M through the barriers and being the guiding vision.
Since he is gone, I don't think there someone with that same vision guiding the M2?

On a positive note, I had lost hope after the E46 M3 went away but BMW surprised me with the 1M and I put my money where my mouth is and bought one with great effort.

Like all fans that care about ///M I want them to kick butt.

As you said, it's about personal choice and that is a great point. You should be able to buy lightweight and loaded, manual or automatic. I'm just worried that if my choice is lightweight, manual, then I might not have a choice in the future. I hope that makes sense.

[BMW86]

I'm confident the M2 will be a 6 cylinder. It has to be a step up from the M135i or at least share the same platform. It wouldn't surprise me if they reused the same N55 engine from the M135i with a different tune and give it the usual M treatment as they have done for the E82 platform. Main differences will be widebody, LSD, M suspension, quad exhaust and M badge. This on its own merits justifies its value, imo.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by nachob

This is a really interesting thread and I have been thinking about this for a bit. I heard talk at Cars and Coffee yesterday about people are waiting for the M2 so they can get one at a reasonable price and it will "put those guys asking 60K for a 1M in their place." So the M2 is a big deal for us that love the 1M so here are my thoughts:

On 4 vs 6 Cylinder
The 6 has a nicer sound and less vibration than a 4 cylinder in general but the 1M should be about outright performance in my humble opinion. In this case, if you can make a 4 Cylinder M2 that weighs 500 lbs less with less turbo-lag, then that's a winner. While I love the 6, I didn't buy the 1M for smoothness. If I wanted that I would've gotten a Lexus. Car and Driver found the current 4 cylinder to be a little more coarse then the 6....and they liked it! If done right, it can sound cool and give you more performance per lb.

We already lost the "sound" war with turbo-charging and the award for best sound goes to the E90/92 M3. Despite this, I chose the 1M over the better sounding E90 because it felt much more dynamic and exciting at lower speeds and RPMs.

At very high speeds it feels a little scary...in a good and exciting way where the M3 feels more secure....ZZZZZZ.

"All about performance"
So after saying it's all about performance, I figured we need to define this better. There are already reviews on the M135 and 135is comparing it to the 1M. They say these are a better value, just as fast, cheaper etc. It is all true but if you read the fine print the electric steering is not quite as good and there is no full-lock diff. The suspension is more steel and less aluminum than ours and it comes with electro-mechanical shocks for a cushier ride. You can also get an automatic and probably sunroof too. Even internally, Dackel mentioned the N54 is all forged internally while the N55 is more cast.

So while the numbers are the same, how they feel, perform and are built is very different. There are 100 cars today that would beat an E30 M3 around the track or 0-60 yet the E30 M3 is a more desirable machine for how it feels doing it. I learned this lesson when I flew in a 1930s open-cockpit biplane. It so much more thrilling going 70 mph in that thing than going 650 mph in a 747 and maybe even more thrilling than going 1,400 mph in the Concorde!


1M vs M2
I think the M2 has the potential of being a significantly better machine especially if they make weight a priority and the 4 cylinder is a big part of this. If you don't believe me take an engine block and chop off 1/3. Then chop off 1/3 of the head, throw away a couple of pistons, rods, rod caps, bolts, chop the cam down and put all that aluminum in tub. Right away you've saved all that weight. Now it takes less coolant, oil and probably a smaller intercooler too. All of this adds up.

You also have the partnership with the carbon fiber company and you can throw some carbon bits in there and make a great machine that anyone can buy. All of those people that are still bitter about they way they were treated by dealerships trying to get a 1M will have a new hero and the value of 1M will probably drop significantly if the M2 is done correctly.

With that said, I believe the 1M represents something special that can be remembered for future generations and still might make it more desireable after the M2 comes out:

1. It will probably be the last BMW ONLY offered with a manual transmission.
2. It will probably be the last M car only offered with a stiff non-adjustable mechanical suspension.
3. It was first use of air-curtain technology in a BMW. I can already see the copy-cat body kits.
4. I think the 1M will be last hairy-chested, testorenized ///M car made. If you want one, you HAVE to drive a stick, give up the sunroof and live with a stiff suspension and undersized gas tank and you only got it in three colors....

So a lot depends on how the M2 is built but I'm not hopeful. I was dissapointed so many 1Ms were ordered fully loaded and the calls for automatics. BMW has to make their customers happy so the M2 will have all the fluffy stuff optional or included...... and that is exactly what will make the 1M special and relevant.

Despite all the loaded 1Ms, it's still the last hairy-chested ///M car. The next generation ///M cars will be more James Bond, Tuxedo super fast luxury machines as witnessed by the piped in digital engine sound in the M5.

So I believe that this is the 1Ms claim to classic-hood...and while heavier, slower and less refined than the M2, it will be more significant in the future much like the E30 M3 is today.

Ask yourself would Steve McQueen drive a stiff, manual 1M or an automatic, electro-magnetic suspended M2?

WOW. Just WOW. read my freakin mind.

[as7920]

This time round could we also expect to see an M2, M2 CSL and possibly an M2 GTS? Given that they will have had time to develop the model series unlike the 1M.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...05&postcount=1

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Summary:

• Next generation 1M (based on F20 1-series) potentially renamed M2 because BMW considering renaming sporty 1-series variants (coupe/cabrio) to 2-series
• Next 1M (or M2) and next M3 to possibly receive more focused special editions (i.e. track/lightweight special models)
  • Many feel that the M Division has become too focused with luxury and these additional 1M and M3's will set the bar for more focused compact and premium entry sports cars as well as their standard luxury siblings.
• Next 1M (or M2) to be powered by 4-cylinder
• Next M3 to be powered by 6-cylinder
• Next 1M (or M2) could come in more variants - coupe and cabrio
• M3 production ends in mid-late 2012 meaning no M3's until 2014
  • Possible Z4M or X3M to fill the temporary gap, using upgraded engine from 1M coupe

Granted, this was a long time ago, but at least it shows what BMW M are thinking.

[firechicken99]

Originally Posted by as7920

This time round could we also expect to see an M2, M2 CSL and possibly an M2 GTS? Given that they will have had time to develop the model series unlike the 1M.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...05&postcount=1


Granted, this was a long time ago, but at least it shows what BMW M are thinking.

Is it just me or does it look like he took the gypsy/fortune teller approach to that statement? What was said basically covers ALL bases and in ways they each contradict each other! lol

I will highlight two...

"
Next 1M (or M2) and next M3 to possibly receive more focused special editions (i.e. track/lightweight special models)

• Many feel that the M Division has become too focused with luxury and these additional 1M and M3's will set the bar for more focused compact and premium entry sports cars as well as their standard luxury siblings.

"

Followed by

"Next 1M (or M2) could come in more variants - coupe and cabrio"!

Call me crazy but thats like saying "They may make more performance focused special editions because people feel they have become too focused with luxury" followed by "the next car could come with more luxury variants"....

I could be wrong, but thats what I get after a first read of that

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by BMW86

I'm confident the M2 will be a 6 cylinder. It has to be a step up from the M135i or at least share the same platform. It wouldn't surprise me if they reused the same N55 engine from the M135i with a different tune and give it the usual M treatment as they have done for the E82 platform. Main differences will be widebody, LSD, M suspension, quad exhaust and M badge. This on its own merits justifies its value, imo.

My money is on this bet. The next M2 will very probably be a around 350-360 hp (N55) engined car with enough M technical and design cues to make it differ from the rest, a la 1M vs. E82 135i. There is no practical reason why they don't go this way, unless they are already developing a very efficient and special 4 cylinder turbo to be used in cars like M2, Z2 etc. Unless I hear reliable rumours about that speculative engine, I am with BMW86's bet.

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by nachob

[B]//M folk ar Garching that the 1M was an attempt to recapture younger club types and they were watching to see how it went and they were surprised by the success but also surprised about how people wanted more of features/colors etc.

I don't understand your comments on club racing and recapturing the younger club types? Was there ever a younger crowd? The E30 M3 was $34k back in 1988 or +$60k in 2012 dollars. What percentage of the 15,000 E30 M3 sold do you think the younger crowd bought? The 1M and M2 were/are being made to offer an M product at a price point that can be afforded by the younger crowd. From my observation, the majortiy of the younger crowd M owners have flocked to the E9x M3 because of its sophisitcation and luxo GT qualities and most know little of the history behind M.

I'm glad you're finally acknowledging that you're beating a dead horse with your stipper 1M comments for weight savings. How many times have you tracked, not autocrossed, your 1M and how much of an advantage was the 50# you saved? I'll stop picking on you if you promise to never bring up you stripper BS weight savings comments.

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

My money is on this bet. The next M2 will very probably be a around 350-360 hp (N55) engined car with enough M technical and design cues to make it differ from the rest, a la 1M vs. E82 135i. There is no practical reason why they don't go this way, unless they are already developing a very efficient and special 4 cylinder turbo to be used in cars like M2, Z2 etc. Unless I hear reliable rumours about that speculative engine, I am with BMW86's bet.

I highly doubt the M2 will have more power than our 1Ms. It's harder to extract responsive power from the N55 due to its valvetronic and single turbo configuration. I think they will go the weight reduction route to increase performance. It'll be interesting wait to see what happens.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by bdaddylo

I highly doubt the M2 will have more power than our 1Ms. It's harder to extract responsive power from the N55 due to its valvetronic and single turbo configuration. I think they will go the weight reduction route to increase performance. It'll be interesting wait to see what happens.

I know that N55 is not that tuneable like the N54s but it already delivers a 320hp in M135i and a light tune or changing a few parts like exhaust and/or FMIC and intake should be enough to put an extra 30 something hp. That is needed for face saving purposes, cause it just can't be exactly the same of M135i engine or the same or less power of our 1M. However, since our engine actually produces a bit more hp and quite more torque than stated, I also doubt that in real data there will be much of a difference and it is even probable that a future "stock 1M vs. stock M2 dyno comparison" can cause a scandal!

[Dackelone]

This thread is becoming VERY interesting indeed!

What IF the leaked 1M engine(s) in the bellow photo was actually pulled from the 1M or 1M CSL... and green lighted for the new F88 M3. Seems to me that 332 Kw (451 PS) would fit nicely into BMW thinking for the "next" M3.

We already know the 135iS that was also featured in this screen shot - is now a reality. Ok, BMW decided to use the PPK1 so the 135iS has 320 Hp instead of 300 HP.

Now... what *IF* BMW were to detune that 451 PS engine and put the HP level somewhere between 135iS and M3, HP - and call it the new M2! I feel this is what will happen.


Dack


My old screen shot from almost two years ago...

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Now... what *IF* BMW were to detune that 451 PS engine and put the HP level somewhere between 135iS and M3, HP - and call it the new M2! I feel this is what will happen.


Dack

Interesting point. I think cost and weight will be major factors in their decision process.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Attachment 719735

Attachment 719736

This thread is becoming VERY interesting indeed!

What IF the leaked 1M engine(s) in the bellow photo was actually pulled from the 1M or 1M CSL... and green lighted for the new F88 M3. Seems to me that 332 Kw (451 PS) would fit nicely into BMW thinking for the "next" M3.

We already know the 135iS that was also featured in this screen shot - is now a reality. Ok, BMW decided to use the PPK1 so the 135iS has 320 Hp instead of 300 HP.

Now... what *IF* BMW were to detune that 451 PS engine and put the HP level somewhere between 135iS and M3, HP - and call it the new M2! I feel this is what will happen.


Dack


My old screen shot from almost two years ago...
Attachment 719734

Very interesting point indeed. I never really understood what was going on about that since from the photo you posted the 332 Kw engine was a US specific 1M. If what you say happens than it also means that we will have a new version of N54 and not a N55 in those future M cars. I am not going to be surprised if one day BMW reveals a one off test car with that monster N54 the version which was dropped for production.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Very interesting point indeed. I never really understood what was going on about that since from the photo you posted the 332 Kw engine was a US specific 1M. If what you say happens than it also means that we will have a new version of N54 and not a N55 in those future M cars. I am not going to be surprised if one day BMW reveals a one off test car with that monster N54 the version which was dropped for production.

That screen shot of mine was just a listing of various engines(nee... SW tunes) that BMW made for the (future) US market. Nothing is set in stone... as we can see some of these engines never made it to "us".

We do know the 1M came with 250 Kw (340 PS) from the factory. We did not know what it would have at the time I posted that screen shot.

We know that BMW will bring us the 135iS with 320 HP. (not 306 PS like in this screen shot).

We know the next M3 will have a turbocharged six cylinder engine. Not sure on how many turbos - though. Two or three(electrically driven)?


What I wonder is... the current e92/e93 M3 will cease production late this year(Oct/'12). And the 1M production is almost finished with(so BMW says?).

So what small sporty car will BMW tout as the replacement "halo" car until the next M3 comes out in two years time? Z4M ? The current Z4is35 already is powered by the same engine the 1M has. SO that would not make any sense.

Maybe drop the 1M (Z4is35)engine into the X3 ??? I sure hope they do not do that.


The future M lineup just does not make any sense to me in the near future. I understand where they are going with the next M3 and M2 models. But I don't understand why they would stop building 1M's - when they are selling like crazy and filling a "void" by the soon to be departed e9x M3.

Thoughts?


What car will //M have to show off what the M brand is about - for the next few years until the next M3 comes out>?


Dackel

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

That screen shot of mine was just a listing of various engines(nee... SW tunes) that BMW made for the (future) US market. Nothing is set in stone... as we can see some of these engines never made it to "us".

We do know the 1M came with 250 Kw (340 PS) from the factory. We did not know what it would have at the time I posted that screen shot.

We know that BMW will bring us the 135iS with 320 HP. (not 306 PS like in this screen shot).

We know the next M3 will have a turbocharged six cylinder engine. Not sure on how many turbos - though. Two or three(electrically driven)?


What I wonder is... the current e92/e93 M3 will cease production late this year(Oct/'12). And the 1M production is almost finished with(so BMW says?).

So what small sporty car will BMW tout as the replacement "halo" car until the next M3 comes out in two years time? Z4M ? The current Z4is35 already is powered by the same engine the 1M has. SO that would not make any sense.

Maybe drop the 1M (Z4is35)engine into the X3 ??? I sure hope they do not do that.


The future M lineup just does not make any sense to me in the near future. I understand where they are going with the next M3 and M2 models. But I don't understand why they would stop building 1M's - when they are selling like crazy and filling a "void" by the soon to be departed e9x M3.

Thoughts?


What car will //M have to show off what the M brand is about - for the next few years until the next M3 comes out>?


Dackel

1M production ceased as of 29th of June unless there is a miracle and they restart it again in the following days! Are you sure about the M3 coupe and cabrio ending the production this October though? Maybe they continue the M3s till next year sometime and the "void" will be smaller? Plus, they think they have the new M5 and M6 and X3M is guaranteed as far as I heard just not sure about its engine.

[bdaddylo]

BMW has already announced that the E92/93 M will be running through the 2013 MY, so production will probably end mid 2013.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

1M production ceased as of 29th of June unless there is a miracle and they restart it again in the following days! Are you sure about the M3 coupe and cabrio ending the production this October though? Maybe they continue the M3s till next year sometime and the "void" will be smaller? Plus, they think they have the new M5 and M6 and X3M is guaranteed as far as I heard just not sure about its engine.

I have been waiting to see something "officially released" from BMW AG stating that 1M production has ceased. Frankly I don't believe they have stopped 1M production - not when they still have people with money in hand. I would like to see a press release from BMW stating something/anything!

The last I saw (two weeks ago) was on BimmerToday.de when they showed us that Power Green Mamba 1M on the final assembly area in Leipzig Werk. They said 1M production would end soon(days?). But so far no press release form BMW. Not a peep. Why?


I am thinking about traveling to Leipzig to see for myself. But I need to find the time to travel there and schedule a factory tour there.


Dack

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I have been waiting to see something "officially released" from BMW AG stating that 1M production has ceased. Frankly I don't believe they have stopped 1M production - not when they still have people with money in hand. I would like to see a press release from BMW stating something/anything!

The last I saw (two weeks ago) was on BimmerToday.de when they showed us that Power Green Mamba 1M on the final assembly area in Leipzig Werk. They said 1M production would end soon(days?). But so far no press release form BMW. Not a peep. Why?


I am thinking about traveling to Leipzig to see for myself. But I need to find the time to travel there and schedule a factory tour there.


Dack

Oh, please travel and let us know for sure what is going on in there

[firechicken99]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

Very interesting point indeed. I never really understood what was going on about that since from the photo you posted the 332 Kw engine was a US specific 1M. If what you say happens than it also means that we will have a new version of N54 and not a N55 in those future M cars. I am not going to be surprised if one day BMW reveals a one off test car with that monster N54 the version which was dropped for production.

Where there any specs/threads about the monster n54? I never heard about that and now you got me curious

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by firechicken99

Where there any specs/threads about the monster n54? I never heard about that and now you got me curious

I am referring to Dackelone's notorious post almost 2 years ago while waiting for BMW to release information on 1M which included the above leaked photo of some future models including a 1M version destined to US with that stated 451 ps engine. There was a long talk as you can imagine on that at the time. Nothing came out of it till now. Dackel should remind us the original thread.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by firechicken99

Where there any specs/threads about the monster n54? I never heard about that and now you got me curious

Yea... I posted the above screen shot... and in a matter of hours it was on every BMW website! Within a day or two the thread count was over 100K visits! Everyone was quoting me as a "BMW insider" when I am not. I am just an enthusiast like everyone else here on 1addicts.

[jprooney]

Well i don't think the next 1M (M2) will have a smaller engine than the out coming M135, it just wouldn't make sense and more important it will cause problems with potential buyers regarding exhaust notes, maybe the M135 would end being more tunable because of it being an I6 instead of an I4 and many other things. Also on the other hand i can't imagine BMW giving the M2 the same detuned engine of the next M3 because it would be very easy to get some aftermarket tune and get same performance of the next M3 which would only cause problems to BMW cannibalizing M3 sales, and I think they might surprise us and they want the next M3 to stand over all the other M models they offer. Just my 02. cents

[firechicken99]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yea... I posted the above screen shot... and in a matter of hours it was on every BMW website! Within a day or two the thread count was over 100K visits! Everyone was quoting me as a "BMW insider" when I am not. I am just an enthusiast like everyone else here on 1addicts.

Of course you arent... sneaky sneaky dack!

Thats exactly what I would expect an "insider" to say :

I kid I kid