[0700700]

Originally Posted by JamieA

I agree with you, this torque figure looks way too low for a turbo. The stock NA 3.0l makes 300nm.

again , subject to revision by bmw. I would not be suprised if they limited the torqur since the new naturally aspirated V8 will get IMO not more than 400nm, so any more than 330 and this car will be to near M3 spec

[stressdoc]

Tough to predict. Clearly MB has not had any problems selling kompressors. This is 2005. It is a small world; we are looking over at Euro and seeing that they are getting a bi-turbo, but we don't? Lexus has 300+hp. 250+ hp and 0-60 in 6 sec is commonplace, even a stinking Toyota Avalon can match the 330i, and the Acura TL beats it. Ditto for Audi s4. The E90 needs to exceed the competition, one way or the other. We are tired of waiting.

[colonelburke]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Tough to predict. Clearly MB has not had any problems selling kompressors. This is 2005. It is a small world; we are looking over at Euro and seeing that they are getting a bi-turbo, but we don't? Lexus has 300+hp. 250+ hp and 0-60 in 6 sec is commonplace, even a stinking Toyota Avalon can match the 330i, and the Acura TL beats it. Ditto for Audi s4. The E90 needs to exceed the competition, one way or the other. We are tired of waiting.

Preach it brother!

[LIKEWATER]

Originally Posted by maq

From a marketing point of view, 100hp is enough a gap and turbocharging vs naturally aspirated is enough a difference that the 335 will absolutely not hurt the M3's sales. It's the whole package that matters. The 335 will be just a regular 3-series with a powerful engine, whereas the M3 is an authentic, widebodied, 100hp/litre M car with full M treatment (brakes, suspension, interior, etc.). Also, the M3 is targeted at a niche market, where 90% of the consumers know exactly what they want and what to expect. As for the 335, I bet 90% of its customers don't know what's really going under the hood and have no real clue about the difference between F/I and N/A.

If you insist on that a 300-something hp turbo 335 will hurt the M3's sales, so will a 300-something hp N/A 335. In fact, the N/A car might do even more damage. By introducing F/I with the top-of-the-line 3er, they are drawing a clear line between the traditional M customers and those who just want hp.

As for turning up the boost on a 335, it's not like everyone is into tuning. I'd be suprised if more than 5% of the 335 customers will actually tune it. Besides, BMW has not produced a turbocharged petrol engine in over 20 years, the aftermarket for the new engine has to be built from ground up. So don't expect a lot of cheap/good/reliable tuning options in the first few years.

All that being said, I for one will not buy a turbocharged BMW. I'm one of those people who wouldn't even S/C a 330. I'm a traditionalist myself, but I just don't see the point in making a 3.5L N/A engine for North America only.

Yes 100hp is a nice gap ........ n/a to n/a. However, BMW said they were "bridging the gap".
And yes, it may hurt sales. I can tell you one sale it may hurt right now.... mine.
Yeah the M3 will be authentic in all it's techno engineering beauty and it is targeted at a "niche" market. I am part of that market.
That is a very good point but I think a tt335 can possibly destroy the authenticity of the M3.
Then the M3 would be like the Mercedes cars.............living off an old reputation, (tradition).

How would a 335 n/a car do more damage ?
Do you know how difficult and time consuming it is to develope a aftermarket f.i. system for a n/a car ?

It's much easier to pull more power out of a car that has a turbo from the manufacturer.
A stock twin turbo system from BMW would be a matter of an ecu recalibration for (place any aftermarket tuners name here.)

Let's say out of 20,000 - tt335 - 5% get tuned. That's 1000 cars @ say $299.00+ each = $299,000.00
Aftermaket tuners will be racing to be the first to release software.
Just go to the M3 forum, all these guys do is tune.
In fact I will be purchasing a supercharger for my E46 M3 in 2006.
M customers want lots of H.P. too.

Just as you said, not everyone is into tuning but even a traditionalist like yourself would be tempted to match the power of the
great v8 powered e9x M3 for a little extra dough.

I don't want to see a tt335 either. After 20 years it would seem as though they were giving up.
It may not be a 3.5l at all........maybe a 3.0 or a 3.2 called a 335 .......... like a 2.3 called a 325.
It's not like BMW doesn't know how to get 310h.p. out of a 3.0l.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by LIKEWATER

It's not like BMW doesn't know how to get 310h.p. out of a 3.0l.

maybe they can't make it reliable enough.

[E90-4life]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

maybe they can't make it reliable enough.

That might be true, especially considering the various E46 M3 I6 explosions that occured like fireworks on the 4 of July here in the states. Somehow this didn't happen in Europe?

Anyhow, I'm disgustingly pissed (if there is such a term, now there is) that BMW would have the audacity to produced a turbocharged I6 for the rest of the world and not power hungry U.S. If that is the case, then they for sure pulled an Arnold on us. Grrrr :mad:

[maq]

Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!

It has a lot more to do with perception then reality.

Think about the typical reaction to Turbo. When people hear Turbo... they immediately think high performance and top of the line. I'm telling you that... from a BRAND point of view... the Turbo does not fit BMW's largest market image... the US.

Think about this... What the M means to the BMW enthusiast is what Turbo means to the typical ignorant American. This is the core problem that BMW NA's brand management team has been facing... and Turbo lost. Simple as that.

Has everyone called their bookie?

I hear ya. In fact, I almost want to agree with you on the brand thing. But, over the years I've realized that only a very small portion of BMW's customers have as much enthusiasm as we do. And what we think doesn't really matter that much to BMW.

Most people are still hugely under BMW's marketing influence. BMWs were once known to be small and light, now they've made them bigger and heavier but the cars are selling better than ever. M cars was once all about stick shift, they offered an auto 'box in the E36 M3 and it outsold the equivalent manual model. IDrive, CDV, DBW...I can go on and on with the list of not-so-enthusiastic reactions from the crowd, but the point is, BMW's customers are driven by BMW's marketing, not their own enthusiasm. People buy what BMW offers, and swear by what BMW says is good. BMW is simply not the kind of niche sports car maker that truely listens to its customers. As sad as it sounds, it's the reality.

As for what engine will the NA 335 get, I have no idea. It's not that I don't want a goold ole N/A I6, but even my source is telling me the press car has a 3.0L with twin-turbo (and double-5-spoke wheels...). I can only say that at this point it's hard to convince me that they will develop a different engine for North America.

Afterall, it's only a 3er that's getting a turbo or 2. It's not like turbos are invading the M, or something like that.

[Tine]

Originally Posted by maq

even my source is telling me the press car has a 3.0L with twin-turbo (and double-5-spoke wheels...).

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by LIKEWATER

Yes 100hp is a nice gap ........ n/a to n/a. However, BMW said they were "bridging the gap".
And yes, it may hurt sales. I can tell you one sale it may hurt right now.... mine.
Yeah the M3 will be authentic in all it's techno engineering beauty and it is targeted at a "niche" market. I am part of that market.
That is a very good point but I think a tt335 can possibly destroy the authenticity of the M3.
Then the M3 would be like the Mercedes cars.............living off an old reputation, (tradition).

How would a 335 n/a car do more damage ?
Do you know how difficult and time consuming it is to develope a aftermarket f.i. system for a n/a car ?

It's much easier to pull more power out of a car that has a turbo from the manufacturer.
A stock twin turbo system from BMW would be a matter of an ecu recalibration for (place any aftermarket tuners name here.)

Let's say out of 20,000 - tt335 - 5% get tuned. That's 1000 cars @ say $299.00+ each = $299,000.00
Aftermaket tuners will be racing to be the first to release software.
Just go to the M3 forum, all these guys do is tune.
In fact I will be purchasing a supercharger for my E46 M3 in 2006.
M customers want lots of H.P. too.

Just as you said, not everyone is into tuning but even a traditionalist like yourself would be tempted to match the power of the
great v8 powered e9x M3 for a little extra dough.

I don't want to see a tt335 either. After 20 years it would seem as though they were giving up.
It may not be a 3.5l at all........maybe a 3.0 or a 3.2 called a 335 .......... like a 2.3 called a 325.
It's not like BMW doesn't know how to get 310h.p. out of a 3.0l.

Dude, the new /M3 is going to have a V8 with 410hp+ and most likely be "tuneable". You can do MANY things to a V8.

n52 biTurbo wil have 310hp+ and it's understandable that there might be "easy" mods to add an extra 20-30hp, but the chassis and dynamic of the car will reamin the same and will also have to be tuned for the increase.

HP is not the end-all when compairing BMW models... a sloppy BMW just isn't a BMW, and thats what you would have if you jacked a 335ci to 360hp and no way to contain or apply that to the ground.

Thus, the added cost of further modifying your car equal that if you would've just bought an //M3 V8.

Not to many people will void their warrenties for an added 20-30hp.

Leave it alone.


-Garrett

[SpeedFreak!]

Originally Posted by maq

As for what engine will the NA 335 get, I have no idea. It's not that I don't want a goold ole N/A I6, but even my source is telling me the press car has a 3.0L with twin-turbo (and double-5-spoke wheels...). I can only say that at this point it's hard to convince me that they will develop a different engine for North America.

Afterall, it's only a 3er that's getting a turbo or 2. It's not like turbos are invading the M, or something like that.

Remember... I've said ALL along that I would actually love (and was one of the first freaking out) to see BMW bring us the Turbo. I'm one of the few fanatical BMW enthusiast that has dreamed of such a thing for a long... long time! In that context, I wish that I was wrong... or should I say, I hope that my sources are wrong. I can hardly wait to see. :rocks:

[wyrm11]

Speed, when exactly are we gonna see anyway?

[maq]

Originally Posted by LIKEWATER

Yeah Yes 100hp is a nice gap ........ n/a to n/a. However, BMW said they were "bridging the gap".
And yes, it may hurt sales. I can tell you one sale it may hurt right now.... mine.
Yeah the M3 will be authentic in all it's techno engineering beauty and it is targeted at a "niche" market. I am part of that market.
That is a very good point but I think a tt335 can possibly destroy the authenticity of the M3.
Then the M3 would be like the Mercedes cars.............living off an old reputation, (tradition).

How would a 335 n/a car do more damage ?
Do you know how difficult and time consuming it is to develope a aftermarket f.i. system for a n/a car ?

It's much easier to pull more power out of a car that has a turbo from the manufacturer.
A stock twin turbo system from BMW would be a matter of an ecu recalibration for (place any aftermarket tuners name here.)

Let's say out of 20,000 - tt335 - 5% get tuned. That's 1000 cars @ say $299.00+ each = $299,000.00
Aftermaket tuners will be racing to be the first to release software.
Just go to the M3 forum, all these guys do is tune.
In fact I will be purchasing a supercharger for my E46 M3 in 2006.
M customers want lots of H.P. too.

Just as you said, not everyone is into tuning but even a traditionalist like yourself would be tempted to match the power of the
great v8 powered e9x M3 for a little extra dough.

I don't want to see a tt335 either. After 20 years it would seem as though they were giving up.
It may not be a 3.5l at all........maybe a 3.0 or a 3.2 called a 335 .......... like a 2.3 called a 325.
It's not like BMW doesn't know how to get 310h.p. out of a 3.0l.

I don't think you are truly against BMW going F/I. I think you are just being protective about a non-M car outperforming an M car easily. I mean, if you don't like F/I, you wouldn't want a S/C for your own M car, right? And the reason for that, want more power? That's exactly what BMW's doing with the turbo 335 - giving power to the people! (Not that I think it's the right thing to do).

Honestly, if I had an E90 M3, I wouldn't worry about the turbo 335s at all. Have all the hp they want to have, I'm the one who gets to use over 400 authentic M horsepower with razor sharp throttle response and a factory warranty to back it up. M is for people who want the perfect balance, not endless power. If someone gets so intimidated by tuned turbo horsepower monsters, then he/she should just join them as there's no better way to gain power.

As I said in reply to SpeedFreak, it's only a regular 3er that's getting turbocharged. So relax, the earth is still spinning and M is sticking to N/A. If anything, the introduction of F/I on non-M models will only further enhance the exclusivity of the M brand. A bad way to put it (nobody gets offended, please), but it's like offering fakes to those who can't have the real. The real stuff's value will only increase when there are so many fakes around. Don't know if you watch TV or not, but ever catch those TD Waterhouse commericals? Their phrase "an alternative way to higher price brokers" (in simply term, pay dirt cheap for half-decent quality) is exactly what the 335 doing to the M3. It doesn't make the M3 look bad (an expensive M3 is still an expensive M3), but also compliments the M's uniqueness (now you can have something like the M3 for cheap!).

I see what you are saying, but honestly, I don't think we are arguing the same thing. Yes I'm aware of the tuning options for a F/I car, yes I'm aware of the huge potential aftermarket and yes I'm aware of the power-hungry car buyers. All that plus the fact you wanting some type of F/I for more power, doesn't it prove that there's a HUGE market for a turbocharged 3er? If so, why shouldn't BMW produce and sell such car?

[maq]

Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!

Remember... I've said ALL along that I would actually love (and was one of the first freaking out) to see BMW bring us the Turbo. I'm one of the few fanatical BMW enthusiast that has dreamed of such a thing for a long... long time! In that context, I wish that I was wrong... or should I say, I hope that my sources are wrong. I can hardly wait to see. :rocks:

We really should switch our positions and believe what the other believes. Imagine how much better and brighter life would be.

[LIKEWATER]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Dude, the new /M3 is going to have a V8 with 410hp+ and most likely be "tuneable". You can do MANY things to a V8.

n52 biTurbo wil have 310hp+ and it's understandable that there might be "easy" mods to add an extra 20-30hp, but the chassis and dynamic of the car will reamin the same and will also have to be tuned for the increase.

HP is not the end-all when compairing BMW models... a sloppy BMW just isn't a BMW, and thats what you would have if you jacked a 335ci to 360hp and no way to contain or apply that to the ground.

Thus, the added cost of further modifying your car equal that if you would've just bought an //M3 V8.

Not to many people will void their warrenties for an added 20-30hp.

Leave it alone.


-Garrett

I know what the new M3 has and it's still 105+ h.p. per liter.
Tuning the v8 will be like tuning the current I6. Difficult to exstract extra n/a power.

No one said h.p. was the end all.
When was the last time you saw a "sloppy" BMW.
DAmotorsports has a 1000hp e36 M3 doesn't look sloopy to me.
360h.p. .....lol..... right !
No being able to get the h.p. to the ground....that doesn't even make sense.

Calm yourself

Likewater

[LIKEWATER]

MAQ, I never said I don't like f.i.
M cars are for those who want it all from there car a top performer.... power and balance....etc.



"All that plus the fact you wanting some type of F/I for more power, doesn't it prove that there's a HUGE market for a turbocharged 3er?"

Well yeah, that was my point.
But I guess the best thing to do is to wait and see what rolls off the line in the next couple of weeks or months.

[Robin_NL]

I agree with Likewater. But(having had a E46 M3 and having driven several Ms, which are/were great) M also stands for: MARKETING

LOL

[maq]

Originally Posted by LIKEWATER

But I guess the best thing to do is to wait and see what rolls off the line in the next couple of weeks or months.

I was about to say the same. We shall see.

[cntlaw]

Another thought was, I m pretty lucky to miss the 335i considering our extremely high fuel tax, I really cannot afford another fuel eater like my C55. I am extremely happy with 330i 's 258hp which has power output close to a Subaru turbo but much better fuel economy.

[slickster]

At this point I just want a change whatever it maybe.

[underDAWG]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

I really cannot afford another fuel eater like my C55.

What happen???? Did Cultural Revolution come to Hong Kong, you lost all you money?

[stressdoc]

Some recent quotable quotes that fit with the concept of the 335i:

‘no boring cars’ Tom Purves, Chairman and CEO of BMW NA.

"BMW has carved out a unique niche in the industry by placing a premium on constant innovation and creativity." Jack Pitney, Vice President, Marketing, BMW NA

Ya gotta love these guys!

[visor]

Originally Posted by cntlaw

I am extremely happy with 330i 's 258hp which has power output close to a Subaru turbo but much better fuel economy.

Umm...scuse me, but you don't even have your car yet, do you?