[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by TXGrey

We also went and sat in Subaru Crosstrek(s) yesterday... we really liked them. A bit more "sporty" than the CX-5, but same interior head/shoulder room (more or less). The Crosstrek is definitely on the list now.

I wouldn't do it and I've owned a lot of Subarus over the years and my daughter currently has my wife's prior 2015 Outback 3.6R. 2019+ Mazdas are put together better, drive better, have a FAR better transmission, more reliable, cheaper to service, cheaper to maintain, and less tech glitches. The CVTs in Subaru 4 cylinder is terrible. The heavy duty CVT in our 2015 Outback 3.6R is a bit better driving due to the way the CVT is programmed, but that car could be so damn good with a true planetary automatic.

[Alfisti]

I tried to buy a 2019/20 Outback 3.6 as on paper it is the natural tool to go from a 9-3 wagon to something a little nicer with more rear seat room. I looked at 23 Limited Trim Outback in those year models with the V6 and every single fucking one had the infuriating "Eyesight" bullshit. I'd avoid any Subaru with this package, i tis HIGHLY, HIGHLY intrusive and subject to class action claims in both Canada and USA for running people off the road or braking in dangerous situations.

[rak299]

If the 16-year-old is whatever is normal for a teenager, the first car is going to get wrecked anyway. Save some money and buy a big, old, rusty truck

[Ambrozie]

Expose them to a certain level of society from a young age, and instill values that cause them to maintain or improve upon that.

If you start them off in a Civic, you’re cutting him off at the feet. If you do decide to go this route, go for a Mazda 3 or Hyundai Veloster/Accent. Cheaper than a Honda or Toyota, but better value and equivalent reliability. Save yourself the Civic premium, ironically.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Ambrozie

Save yourself the Civic premium, ironically.

True and along those same lines, the used 3 series manual transmission was cheaper than any of the Civics that are worth buying. It is amazing that even on a BMW forum, people are encouraging more expensive Civics and Subarus that use cheaper materials, horrible driving dynamics (specifically Subaru), and ugly as sing (again, Subaru). Why??

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by thebmw

It is amazing that even on a BMW forum, people are encouraging more expensive Civics and Subarus that use cheaper materials, horrible driving dynamics (specifically Subaru), and ugly as sing (again, Subaru). Why??

Because we know better!
There is not a single used 3-series BMW (outside of ///M cars) that I would want to see in my garage these days. Neither for my son, nor for myself.

Cheap/regular 3-series are crappy inside and out. I've had them for loaners and they have only gotten larger and plastiky-er with each generation. For the last 19 years (since N54 days), engines have been uniformly abused with extended oil change intervals that destroy them. You would have to go shopping for 20+ year old BMWs to get one with a naturally aspirated engine, and the maintenance on 20+ year old BMWs is not for a faint of heart (starting with complete replacement of all plastic and rubber coolant and engine parts inside the engine bay).

Thus, even on a BMW forum, most parents do not want to buy used 3-series for their teens.

YMMV,
a

P.S.: If money is no object, go and buy a NEW 3-series and take proper "old school" care of it.
P.P.S.: Or buy something else, as recommended above.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Ambrozie

Expose them to a certain level of society from a young age, and instill values that cause them to maintain or improve upon that.

If you start them off in a Civic, you’re cutting him off at the feet. If you do decide to go this route, go for a Mazda 3 or Hyundai Veloster/Accent. Cheaper than a Honda or Toyota, but better value and equivalent reliability. Save yourself the Civic premium, ironically.

Dumbest comment I've read here in a long time.

[Ambrozie]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Dumbest comment I've read here in a long time.

Elaborate as to which portion is “dumb”, provide rationale as to why, and provide a counter argument.

Otherwise keep your low IQ, uncultured, and uninformed opinion to yourself.

[maticCRO]

Hahaah, yeah buy an Alfa Romeo, that way you can teach your kid how to spend a fortune on repairs, or even better, he can learn and become the best mechanic your continent has ever seen after repairing his Alfa for the 17th time this year... 3 in 1 deal when you think about it
Theres a reason pretty much noone buys them here in Europe, and I live in a country that is 200km from Italy... Better buy Kia than AR... Just sayin

[silvermanor]

How about you help the kid find a job and he can save up and buy the car he wants by himself. Or am I being an unc millennial and this idea is borderline absurd these days?

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Ambrozie

Elaborate as to which portion is “dumb”, provide rationale as to why, and provide a counter argument.

Otherwise keep your low IQ, uncultured, and uninformed opinion to yourself.

Expose them to a certain level of society? Really? We're talking about teenagers. What the f*ck are you talking about? Also, stfu...I'll provide my opinion anywhere I see fit.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Because we know better!
There is not a single used 3-series BMW (outside of ///M cars) that I would want to see in my garage these days. Neither my son, nor for myself.

Cheap/regular 3-series are crappy inside and out. I've had them for loaners and they have only gotten larger and plastiky-er with each generation. For the last 19 years (since N54 days), engines have been uniformly abused with extended oil change intervals that destroy them. You would have to go shopping for 20+ year old BMWs to get one with a naturally aspirated engine, and the maintenance on 20+ year old BMWs is not for a faint of heart (starting with complete replacement of all plastic and rubber coolant and engine parts inside the engine bay).

Thus, even on a BMW forum, most parents do not want to buy used 3-series for their teens.

YMMV,
a

P.S.: If money is no object, go and buy a NEW 3-series and take proper "old school" care of it.
P.P.S.: Or buy something else, as recommended above.

1. Civics and Subarus have far more plastics than the equivalent 3 series from the same year. The overall materials in the BMW are far superior than those other cars...that's not even a debate.

2. The plastics in those other cars look and feel much cheaper. They are hard to the touch and hollow-sounding, almost like the plastic on a child’s toy.

3. The CVT in some of those cars are horrendous. How could anyone even consider that vs a manual or a proper auto?

4. The engines in those cars sound like garbage and they are woefully under-powered.

5. Technology is far superior in the BMW than the equivalent other car.

6. Ergonomics are far superior in the BMW than the equivalent other car (especially Subaru...really bad driver ergonomics but no one complains because people buy Subarus for "love" and "dogs", not ergonomics, performance, driving dynamics, quality of interior materials, transmission, engine, LOOKS, etc).

5. Maintenance is there with any car, especially used ones. Parts are actually about the same for 3 series vs Japanese cars. Repairs are variable based on how well the person has treated the car. For sure, there are far more enthusiast owned 3 series than Subarus. Subarus rank as BELOW average in reliability, far behind BMW, FYI.

6. Finally, and most importantly, money IS an object, especially for kid's cars and we already established that these cars are the same price on the used market (sometimes 3 series is cheaper).

[RM7]

My brother rolled a Subaru Forrester down a hill and walked away when he was in his teens.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by thebmw

True and along those same lines, the used 3 series manual transmission was cheaper than any of the Civics that are worth buying. It is amazing that even on a BMW forum, people are encouraging more expensive Civics and Subarus that use cheaper materials, horrible driving dynamics (specifically Subaru), and ugly as sing (again, Subaru). Why??

Why? Because they are cheaper to maintain. I love my M2 DCT and Cayman 6MT and my two kids (17 daughter and 21 son) know how to drive sticks and I'll let them drive either car when they want to and I've let my son take my Cayman to prom and on dates. They both love sporty German cars, but the rule in the house is absolutely NO German cars or turbo cars (because of the potential expense to repair) or cars that do 0-60 under 7 seconds while we're helping them out financially. When they are on their own, then they can buy what they want. Now, that rule would be slightly different if I had a child that was a true DIYer. I have both of my kids help me when I service and repair their cars and they enjoy learning, but neither is really into doing the work themselves much less have the time due to their very busy schedules.

Let's not bend the truth here. Used German cars are much more expensive to maintain, fix, and insure than a Mazda, Honda, Toyota, or even a Subaru (usually). Now if you're a DIYer and have the tools, maintaining and fixing a German car isn't that bad. However, most people aren't into doing their own work. Also, it would be a royal pain in the butt to have a kid in college hours away with a German car problem. At that point, you're likely spending big bucks to fix something you and I could knock out easily in our own garage to 30% of the price. It's just not worth the hassle and stress, IMO.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Why? Because they are cheaper to maintain. I love my M2 DCT and Cayman 6MT and my two kids (17 daughter and 21 son) know how to drive sticks and I'll let them drive either car when they want to and I've let my son take my Cayman to prom and on dates. They both love sporty German cars, but the rule in the house is absolutely NO German cars or turbo cars (because of the potential expense to repair) or cars that do 0-60 under 7 seconds while we're helping them out financially. When they are on their own, then they can buy what they want. Now, that rule would be slightly different if I had a child that was a true DIYer. I have both of my kids help me when I service and repair their cars and they enjoy learning, but neither is really into doing the work themselves much less have the time due to their very busy schedules.

Let's not bend the truth here. Used German cars are much more expensive to maintain, fix, and insure than a Mazda, Honda, Toyota, or even a Subaru (usually). Now if you're a DIYer and have the tools, maintaining and fixing a German car isn't that bad. However, most people aren't into doing their own work. Also, it would be a royal pain in the butt to have a kid in college hours away with a German car problem. At that point, you're likely spending big bucks to fix something you and I could knock out easily in our own garage to 30% of the price. It's just not worth the hassle and stress, IMO.

I hear you (or read you) and I generally agree. But, it I am paying a lower insurance price for the 3 series compared to the Mazda 3 or a Civic because claims data yields higher risk profile for those drivers. Again, the cost of acquisition was the same (we had a specific budget in mind).

This is an enthusiast forum so I thought many of the people here would be able to find a good independent shop, DYI simple things, find well priced parts, and know how to maintain their cars, thus negating the high costs of BMW dealership service. Is that not the case?

True story. Just last month, the 3 series, which is at college now, showed a low coolant light. Coolant hadn't been filled in a few years, so not shocking. My son didn't know what to do. It was a great teaching and learning experience. He learned how all about the coolant tank, lines, checking levels, what product to buy, and how to fill it. That education is worth a lot and definitely justifies the tiny bit more I might be paying for the 3 series (again, I still believe I am at a net savings vs some of the entry cars).

Bonus, he actually loves the car and realizes how much better it is than many of the other cars/brands on the road from a driving dynamic standpoint. That is also education and worth something.

[Alfisti]

COunt me in the camp that is always amazed how much labour seems to be on this forum. I can barely change a tyre so rely on my indies to do all the work but once I remove the parts costs, the labour is not that bad. Sometimes they source parts cheaper than I can. I tried sourcing parts and oil for a PDK service and despite my best efforts it was MORE than parts and labour at a high rep indy because he carried the fluids in stock, so bought it in large quantities vs me buying a bunch of little bottles.

I changed a battery last year and came inside and slapped the wife on the arse, I feltlike such a man.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by thebmw

I hear you (or read you) and I generally agree. But, it I am paying a lower insurance price for the 3 series compared to the Mazda 3 or a Civic because claims data yields higher risk profile for those drivers. Again, the cost of acquisition was the same (we had a specific budget in mind).

This is an enthusiast forum so I thought many of the people here would be able to find a good independent shop, DYI simple things, find well priced parts, and know how to maintain their cars, thus negating the high costs of BMW dealership service. Is that not the case?

True story. Just last month, the 3 series, which is at college now, showed a low coolant light. Coolant hadn't been filled in a few years, so not shocking. My son didn't know what to do. It was a great teaching and learning experience. He learned how all about the coolant tank, lines, checking levels, what product to buy, and how to fill it. That education is worth a lot and definitely justifies the tiny bit more I might be paying for the 3 series (again, I still believe I am at a net savings vs some of the entry cars).

Bonus, he actually loves the car and realizes how much better it is than many of the other cars/brands on the road from a driving dynamic standpoint. That is also education and worth something.

I agree with all of this. However, most folks, even on this forum, aren't DIYers except perhaps really basic stuff. Things that we wouldn't blink an eye at, they would say absolutely not. As I tell my friends when I'm elbow deep into a repair "It's just Legos."

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

COunt me in the camp that is always amazed how much labour seems to be on this forum. I can barely change a tyre so rely on my indies to do all the work but once I remove the parts costs, the labour is not that bad. Sometimes they source parts cheaper than I can. I tried sourcing parts and oil for a PDK service and despite my best efforts it was MORE than parts and labour at a high rep indy because he carried the fluids in stock, so bought it in large quantities vs me buying a bunch of little bottles.

I changed a battery last year and came inside and slapped the wife on the arse, I feltlike such a man.

Youtube, forum posts, and a gnarly set of tools is all it takes to do a lot of the repairs on a car. It is rarely difficult, but you do need to understand what you're doing (i.e., research) and have a lot of patience. Also, plan on the jobs always taking 2 to 3 times longer than you think

I've saved tens of thousands of dollars working on my cars over the past 25+ years. Granted much of the work was modifications. I have saved a massive amount of money working on my Cayman which is actually one of the easiest cars I've ever worked on. Almost everything is accessible.

[Rocket455]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Used German cars are much more expensive to maintain, fix, and insure than a Mazda, Honda, Toyota, or even a Subaru (usually).

This is 1000 pct correct, and the market reflects this in no uncertain terms in the depreciation of the vehicle in the used car realm. I've experienced way too much to subscribe to the "just do regular maintenance and the everything will be ok" argument with those cars. The driving experience of the German offerings is a world apart, zero argument there...but between random electrical failures, routine maintenance and (God forbid) replacing major components, you begin to understand how Japanese (and other) alternatives are beyond a doubt more bang for your buck from a cost-benefit standpoint.

[jaffles]

When the son bought his 92, I bought a 93 willingly knowing I was embarking on an adventure with him. I have just used forums, youtube, google and on-line shopping to educate myself to work on these cars with the son. Second hand or aliexpress tools work fine. We have changed shocks, engine mounts, sump gaskets, thermostats, coolant, oil filter housing gaskets, oil changes, serpentine belts, induction boxes and more. About to fit car play with reverse camera, new steering wheel, and seat base to his.

His gone from a Instagram wanna be drifter dreaming of a tune, LSD, and coloured lights underneath it, to a 16yo who wants for none of that anymore, rather just clean it, respect it, and enjoy it.

Sure we had a failure with changing a fuel filter and had to see an indi, but we have had success in changing the trans oil and mechatronics. I haven't added it up but we are way in front and he has the rest of his life. It may have been possible to do it all with a Mazda, but they have to be proud of what they are investing time in, seen in, sunk money in, not see it as car to get from A to B.

[midiweka]

Hi, I have 2 older teens. More than any other factor, choose the safest car. New drivers are still learning and you want them to be safe during there on-the-road training. At least to me nothing else really matters.

[TXGrey]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Why? Because they are cheaper to maintain. I love my M2 DCT and Cayman 6MT and my two kids (17 daughter and 21 son) know how to drive sticks and I'll let them drive either car when they want to and I've let my son take my Cayman to prom and on dates. They both love sporty German cars, but the rule in the house is absolutely NO German cars or turbo cars (because of the potential expense to repair) or cars that do 0-60 under 7 seconds while we're helping them out financially. When they are on their own, then they can buy what they want. Now, that rule would be slightly different if I had a child that was a true DIYer. I have both of my kids help me when I service and repair their cars and they enjoy learning, but neither is really into doing the work themselves much less have the time due to their very busy schedules.

Let's not bend the truth here. Used German cars are much more expensive to maintain, fix, and insure than a Mazda, Honda, Toyota, or even a Subaru (usually). Now if you're a DIYer and have the tools, maintaining and fixing a German car isn't that bad. However, most people aren't into doing their own work. Also, it would be a royal pain in the butt to have a kid in college hours away with a German car problem. At that point, you're likely spending big bucks to fix something you and I could knock out easily in our own garage to 30% of the price. It's just not worth the hassle and stress, IMO.

100% every bit of all of this….