[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I would first say that I wasn't referring to "BEVs", I was referring to "EVs", so a solid-state powered vehicle is still an EV, thus you kinda proved my point. The fact is (and we are seeing this with BMW EVs) that manufactures have already found ways around using rare Earth minerals.

Finding ways around what?

https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/li...tery-cell.html

In its in-house laboratory, the BMW Group researches the compositions and proportions of the active materials in a battery cell. The cathode – the positive pole – currently consists of lithium-nickel-manganese-cobalt oxides. Graphite is used for the anode, the negative pole. In the extraction of raw materials – in particular of key raw materials such as lithium and cobalt

Originally Posted by jmack123

And the infrastructure isn't there? You do realize the petroleum infrastructure didn't just materialize out of thin air right? It took time for that to ramp up to. Everything you outlined are fixable issues.

How is everything a fixable issue when majority of Americans don't live in a single family home, so charging at "home" is not feasible for them. And for the ones who live in an apartment, who pays for the new charging infrastructure?

Currently, Tesla's superchargers have gone up so much in cost, it's comparable if not more expensive than gas. Which begs the question - what are you saving on going with EV?

Originally Posted by jmack123

The cost of materials are ALWAYS higher with new technology, which is why it cost the average family's salary in the 50s for a computer. How much would a computer with the same compute cost now? Again, you guys tend to be pretty short-sighted and fail to realize that limitations now won't equate to limitations even 15 years from now. How many EVs were on the road 15 years ago?

Tell me how litium and cobalt prices are going to decrease when automakers like BMW are planning on putting a battery in half their cars, and there is already a shortage. In fact, lithium prices have INCREASED

4The chickens are quickly coming home to roost. In the last week, lithium prices have been widely discussed in the auto industry, and beyond, because the cost of metal necessary to make those batteries has been skyrocketing. According to Bloomberg, the cost of metal grew by 280% last year. In the first quarter, the prices of many metals more than doubled. Prices for lithium alone have grown 438% this year, according to Fortune...

https://www.natlawreview.com/article...attery-demands

One of us lives in reality and the other in the hype zone.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by therealm3

I think the analogy is actually quite good. And I disagree that the market doesn't want technology on their wrist. I see exponentially more Apple watches than any other kind of time piece. Yes, mechanical watches have their niche, but it's like vinyl records, to some they are the holy grail, but the masses are fine with Spotify.

With that said, I am a gear head at heart and miss my e30 m3 dearly, but EVs are the way to go for mainstream transport. Hopefully solid state brings about a way for manufacturers to make lighter weight fun cars again.

The thing is, that Apple watch has a dead end. Used or not used, it has a battery that one day will die. A mechanical piece and an automatic / self winding watch, can live forever, or itcan be resuscitated. And is a marvelous piece compared with a chip stamped piece. There is no comparison.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by chris719

Total nonsense. There will be energy created to satisfy demand. Did we remain at 1950s level baseload? No, it has steadily increased.

Yeah, this is why energy reached level like never before and Europe and many others decided to open coal and atomic.
Actually atomic are increasing as China, India, Japan and many others are opening new projects.

So far, the demand is excruciating for the actual system whichis overwhelmed.

And there is the question: green much?

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I would first say that I wasn't referring to "BEVs", I was referring to "EVs", so a solid-state powered vehicle is still an EV, thus you kinda proved my point. The fact is (and we are seeing this with BMW EVs) that manufactures have already found ways around using rare Earth minerals. And the infrastructure isn't there? You do realize the petroleum infrastructure didn't just materialize out of thin air right? It took time for that to ramp up to. Everything you outlined are fixable issues. The cost of materials are ALWAYS higher with new technology, which is why it cost the average family's salary in the 50s for a computer. How much would a computer with the same compute cost now? Again, you guys tend to be pretty short-sighted and fail to realize that limitations now won't equate to limitations even 15 years from now. How many EVs were on the road 15 years ago?

Not sure who doesn’t see properly in here.

Beside the fact that the materials mining will destroy the earth in a way no oil ever did (oil areas can and are able to be reforested or recuperated while mining sites are open scars and holes that will never be put back into nature), the lack of freedom is appaling. Short-sighted is the individual that does not understand that once they took your car away, you will be at their mercy and they can shut down your car anytime.
Sad times are coming if we let it happen.
If you like the electric, go for it. Just don’t touch my ICE car which can take me where no grid exists and which can start 2 years later with little effort.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Finding ways around what?

https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/li...tery-cell.html

How is everything a fixable issue when majority of Americans don't live in a single family home, so charging at "home" is not feasible for them. And for the ones who live in an apartment, who pays for the new charging infrastructure?

Currently, Tesla's superchargers have gone up so much in cost, it's comparable if not more expensive than gas. Which begs the question - what are you saving on going with EV?

Tell me how litium and cobalt prices are going to decrease when automakers like BMW are planning on putting a battery in half their cars, and there is already a shortage. In fact, lithium prices have INCREASED

https://www.natlawreview.com/article...attery-demands

One of us lives in reality and the other in the hype zone.

After looking, BMW is removing rare earth metals from the motor manufacturing process (so I stand corrected here):

https://interestingengineering.com/i...ee-masterpiece

To the infrastructure piece - not everyone needs to own a home. Clearly you have not seen the charging stations for on street parking? Try extrapolating that on a larger scale. Where there is demand, the supply will follow. And the VAST majority of drivers will be able to simply go to a charging station, charge all the way up, and drive around for a week without having to worry about charging at home.

And again, you are short-sighted. Lithium? You do realize there will be alternatives to lithium correct? Some more reading to get yourself informed:

https://www.azocleantech.com/article...ArticleID=1598

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Not sure who doesn’t see properly in here.

Beside the fact that the materials mining will destroy the earth in a way no oil ever did (oil areas can and are able to be reforested or recuperated while mining sites are open scars and holes that will never be put back into nature), the lack of freedom is appaling. Short-sighted is the individual that does not understand that once they took your car away, you will be at their mercy and they can shut down your car anytime.
Sad times are coming if we let it happen.
If you like the electric, go for it. Just don’t touch my ICE car which can take me where no grid exists and which can start 2 years later with little effort.

I don't dabble is wacky conspiracy theories, sorry. And please don't try to act like oil mining is an environmentally sustainable practice, because it isn't. The raw inputs with respect to EVs are in their infancy and even still are more environmentally sustainable than ICE vehicles. Honestly, you people need to learn how to read:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...le-myths#Myth5

https://electrek.co/2022/03/04/light...ord-study/amp/

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I don't dabble is wacky conspiracy theories, sorry. And please don't try to act like oil mining is an environmentally sustainable practice, because it isn't. The raw inputs with respect to EVs are in their infancy and even still are more environmentally sustainable than ICE vehicles. Honestly, you people need to learn how to read:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...le-myths#Myth5

https://electrek.co/2022/03/04/light...ord-study/amp/

There is nothing about conspiracy. Is just logic.
You get downloads and upgrades in your car while you sleep. You have no idea what is going on.
A car that dies without a grid means lack of freedom. An old toyota, left in the woods will start after 2 years. All you need is a crank and a tank of gas or diesel.

And as a note, one of my friends in Europe, refused to pay one payment on his EV due to some financial overcharge that was not his fault and he considered the next month paid as well.
The manufacturer locked his vehicle, leaving him stranded at 50 km away from his house in the evening. Freedom much?
He moved back to ICE the next day.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I don't dabble is wacky conspiracy theories, sorry. And please don't try to act like oil mining is an environmentally sustainable practice, because it isn't. The raw inputs with respect to EVs are in their infancy and even still are more environmentally sustainable than ICE vehicles. Honestly, you people need to learn how to read:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...le-myths#Myth5

https://electrek.co/2022/03/04/light...ord-study/amp/

Sorry. There is no HOW to read. There is just reading.
Sitting, or reading upside down while doing yoga is still reading.
Except you post what you believe is good.

Just google Chile lithium mining sites and compare and see if the destruction made by oil can match that. NEVER.
Lakes of acids that destroy everything, corode everything and rain on the surrounding area burning crops and poisoning people.

You read what you want.i read whatyouread too. And then I realized what a terrible idea this is.

You should watch “Global WarNing”. A documentary done by a Canadian.
Take a look.

[PhatLyfe]

Are we still on the grill to cool the batteries?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by ArkhamM5

Electric cars are as unsustainable as fossil fuel car and possibly even worse. Mining is huge where im from, electric cars are far from enviromentally friendly. We mine the rare mineral ore in foriegn countries, ship it and refine it in another, ship it and process it in another, build the car and then charge it with fossil fuels lmao. So we are gonna be in the same situation with minerals as we are with fossil fuels. All electric cars do is move the pollution away from that user to feel better.

….and therein lies the truth of the rub. It's all about feeling like you are better, but the true level of pollution doesn't change. In fact, it will arguably be worse in the long run. Vehicle emissions account for a very low percentage of overall pollution, yet they target that. It's like the AR-15 of the pollution world.

[10"]

no manual—no care.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by 10"

no manual—no care.

Pretty much!

[ArkhamM5]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I don't dabble is wacky conspiracy theories, sorry. And please don't try to act like oil mining is an environmentally sustainable practice, because it isn't. The raw inputs with respect to EVs are in their infancy and even still are more environmentally sustainable than ICE vehicles. Honestly, you people need to learn how to read:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth5

https://electrek.co/2022/03/04/light-duty-evs-have-64-lower-life-cycle-emissions-than-ice-vehicles-ford-study/amp/

Questionable source, EPA has to justify their job. Cant believe everything you read on the internet, cant believe most things your government state. Actually have to think about analyze things and think critically.



The other study is questionable as they dont include the "second battery" when it does need to be replaced because they dont consistantly last as long as gas vehicles lifecycle, yet. Further they base a bulk of the study on aodel from Aronne National Labratory (another entity that doesnt appear to have a bias at all /s). Lol when youre studies are not evidence based but specultive AND you have funding that comes from the government for your models it just adds to the possible "publication bias" if your hypothesis is null and next years funding is on the line..... maybe we can just tweak those models because we made it all up and its a little advanced to be called out on. Models are the lowest form of "evidence" and carries no weight with me. Watching Chevy volts get $20k batteries replaced at 40k miles and lets not mention the Nissan leaf failure.

There probably are people conspiring and its atleast equally likely its all the people who get the green government money to be green.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by ArkhamM5

Questionable source, EPA has to justify their job. Cant believe everything you read on the internet, cant believe most things your government state. Actually have to think about analyze things and think critically.



The other study is questionable as they dont include the "second battery" when it does need to be replaced because they dont consistantly last as long as gas vehicles lifecycle, yet. Further they base a bulk of the study on aodel from Aronne National Labratory (another entity that doesnt appear to have a bias at all /s). Lol when youre studies are not evidence based but specultive AND you have funding that comes from the government for your models it just adds to the possible "publication bias" if your hypothesis is null and next years funding is on the line..... maybe we can just tweak those models because we made it all up and its a little advanced to be called out on. Models are the lowest form of "evidence" and carries no weight with me. Watching Chevy volts get $20k batteries replaced at 40k miles and lets not mention the Nissan leaf failure.

There probably are people conspiring and its atleast equally likely its all the people who get the green government money to be green.

Yes its all a conspiracy. We can't trust the government. Tin-foil hats in place.

[ArkhamM5]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Yes its all a conspiracy. We can't trust the government. Tin-foil hats in place.

No tin foil hat, just history books and critical thinking skills. Its actually more asinine to hold your position lol. Is it a stretch at all in this era of cronyism? Its not even isolated to green energy but green energy is probably the best racket because it has a moveable goal post and is unfalsifiable.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by ArkhamM5

No tin foil hat, just history books and critical thinking skills. Its actually more asinine to hold your position lol. Is it a stretch at all in this era of cronyism? Its not even isolated to green energy but green energy is probably the best racket because it has a moveable goal post and is unfalsifiable.

I'll wait for the counter-research that you have on the topic. Please nothing from and/or funded by the fossil-fuels industry, cuz you know, "cronyism".

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by jmack123

I'll wait for the counter-research that you have on the topic. Please nothing from and/or funded by the fossil-fuels industry, cuz you know, "cronyism".

But you don’t have research, you have speculation. Just like the claim that battery costs will go down, we are seeing record increases in costs.

Just like claims infrastructure will improve, we have states telling people not to charge their cars, change their thermostats and waiting’s to charge vehicles. You’re choosing to look at the best case prediction, we are talking about reality.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

But you don't have research, you have speculation. Just like the claim that battery costs will go down, we are seeing record increases in costs.

Just like claims infrastructure will improve, we have states telling people not to charge their cars, change their thermostats and waiting's to charge vehicles. You're choosing to look at the best case prediction, we are talking about reality.

Research from the EPA demonstrating that EVs create less emissions over their lifetime than ICE vehicles is speculation? The FACT that most people fill their car once a week is speculation? I'm still waiting on your actual evidence showing why what I said was incorrect. And by the way, everything you provided was speculation. The idea that battery costs can't be controlled or innovated for is PURE speculation. In the history of mankind, raw input costs are always higher earlier in the lifecycle.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Research from the EPA demonstrating that EVs create less emissions over their lifetime than ICE vehicles is speculation? The FACT that most people fill their car once a week is speculation? I'm still waiting on your actual evidence showing why what I said was incorrect.

Yes - that's absolute speculation. We don't even know the lifecycle of half of these new products, but we are already seeing significant failures from their batteries. How many battery replacements will a car see in it's "lifecycle"

There is also the issue on emissions - tires give off more particulate emissions than tailpipes do:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...sts-tests-show

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...from-tailpipes

According to a press release from the organization, tests involved a "popular family hatchback" with new, correctly-inflated tires. The hatchback's tires emitted 5.8 grams of particulate matter per kilometer, compared to 4.5 milligrams per kilometer from the exhaust, according to Emissions Analytics.

That means tire-wear particulate emissions were higher than exhaust particulate emissions by a factor of 1,000, the organization noted.

https://jalopnik.com/emissions-from-...-we-1849023188

The study, which was undertaken at the National Physical Laboratory in the UK by independent emissions testing company Emissions Analytics, found that under normal conditions particulate matter released by tire wear is 1,850 times more than the amount of particulates that come from burning the gas in your engine.

Knowing Electric cars weigh more, and will be more punishing on consumables like tires, what exactly is being saved here?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Yes its all a conspiracy. We can't trust the government. Tin-foil hats in place.

I'm not sure why you're mocking people for not trusting the government. If you're a African-American/Black American, or a Guatemalan you can point out the government's purposeful injection of syphilis:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Gua...lis-experiment
https://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/0...gee/index.html

Lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and more recently, Iraq WMDs, and COVID "misinformation" where the government colluded with social media companies to silence dissenting voices, which is a direct violation of our free speech.

Even now, the focus on personal transport emissions is ridiculous, when JUST 15/16 of the world's 900 shipping tankers emit more emission than all the cars on the world - COMBINED.
Why are we going after personal transport and people and not business?

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Yes - that's absolute speculation. We don't even know the lifecycle of half of these new products, but we are already seeing significant failures from their batteries. How many battery replacements will a car see in it's "lifecycle"

There is also the issue on emissions - tires give off more particulate emissions than tailpipes do:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...sts-tests-show

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...from-tailpipes

https://jalopnik.com/emissions-from-...-we-1849023188

Knowing Electric cars weigh more, and will be more punishing on consumables like tires, what exactly is being saved here?

So you are simultaneously saying that enthusiasts who want to continue to drive ICE cars around a track or vigorously on city streets are now concerned about the amount of rubber being burned off into the atmosphere? Do you have any studies comparing the driving habits of ICE drivers vs. electric drivers? Because that is certainly a confounding variable. Further, do you have any studies showing the impact of the additional weight of electric vehicles on tire-related emissions?

Btw, to the point of electric vehicles being heavier, like I said, a solution for this is already in the works:

https://www.wired.com/story/cell-to-...tric-vehicles/


Oh and by the way, I haven't heard you mention a solution for the fact that we are eventually going to run out of fossil fuel, which is NOT a renewable resource. You rail about lithium, cobalt etc., but avoid the elephant in the room. Funny.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by jmack123

So you are simultaneously saying that enthusiasts who want to continue to drive ICE cars around a track or vigorously on city streets are now concerned about the amount of rubber being burned off into the atmosphere?

That’s actually not what I said at all. If the argument is that emissions are lower on a BEV, factor in total emissions, including tires. Electric cars are heavier and will use tires more than ICE cars.

Do you have any studies comparing the driving habits of ICE drivers vs. electric drivers? Because that is certainly a confounding variable. Further, do you have any studies showing the impact of the additional weight of electric vehicles on tire-related emissions?

I’m not arguing that, you are. So why don’t you provide that data?