[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by sxyblue

Waiting for people to start the Maldonado memes for Verstappen.

Have you not seen this?

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

I wouldn't criticize Max that much on Turn 1 incident. It is quite "common" for Spa race start at La Source. Although Max was a bit lucky not making himself the second Grosjean by causing a huge collision at that corner at race start.

However, Verstappan was walking a very fine line on his defense maneuvers. He was being criticized in Hungary defending Kimi (again). This time was straight aggressive "blocking" (in Indy car terms), he simply "reacts" to Kimi's path with a significant speed differential. This is like you driving down a freeway 85-90 mph, and some idiot came to your lane driving 65 mph without signal and only a few feed in front of you.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2016/08/3...ngerous-moves/

Above gave some suggestions that FIA can study further laying down some solid rules on differentiating "defense" and "blocking". In this case, Kimi could've in contact with Max's rear wheel and fly like Webber in Valencia 2010.

I think at this point, RBR should sit down and have a long talk with Max. Encouraging him doing what he did in Spain, that was simply great defending, knowing the track and his car's capability. But Hungary and Spa, that's a no no in driving and overtaking etiquette.

Once he gets more mature, he will be a great driver and definitely a world champion.

Exactly. He's got the skillz to pay the billz, and that first turn stuff happens. It just does. The blocking is going to end his career prematurely and/or someone else's.

Originally Posted by spumoni1984

I don't think team/sponsor respect can be separated from driver respect. Look at Maldonado...teams and sponsors weren't lining up to sign him once Venesuela oil dropped out. Why - he's crazy and crashes a lot.

Opposite is true for Hulk or Alonso. How many times is Fernando mentioned as the best driver on the grid - even though he has been rounding out the top 10 this year? As for Nico...Hulk is constantly linked with top tier teams when the "crazy season" gets going. You don't get your name mentioned with Ferrari, MB, and Red Bull by picking up a few 7th places for Force India.

This ^^^^^^^

Respect does have a lot to do with where you end up in a team, and whether anyone wants to actually deal with you. This is true in all sports, not just F1. At some point someone is going to decide they want to win and do not care for his blocking and he will end up in a wall. No team wants their car in a wall.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

You write this as if that is of any importance. but in fact this doesnt matter at all.
They race to get maximum results. they only need respect from teams and sponsors to ensure their income and next years seat. And that means foremost results, and maybe consistency, but respect from other drivers plays no part.
Racing has only 1 goal. and that is to win. Respect from other drivers doesnt result in anything, there is no 'you know what, he's such a nice and respected guy, I think I'll let him pass' scenario.
Thats why professional drivers absolutely dont care about respect from other drivers. If that's in your nature, you wont make it anywhere near professional level racing, let alone F1. Because if earning respect means not going the full 100% for your own results, you'll never win at top level.

as for the crash, I see 3 drivers in 1 corner who all 3 thought they could get away with it or that 1 would back down. Guess all 3 were wrong...

Lack of respect between drivers will lead to problems with in-fighting in teams, future teammate issues, sponsor issues, and could cost him points. Intentional blocking for example. If I knew I was racing someone who was dirty, and wrecked me last week, and he was vying for a title, I would park it on a hot lap during quali, etc. Ignore blue flags and block him if he was trying to lap me. Do anything I could to stop him from winning. Especially if I wasn't in contention. "5 second penalty? Bahhh who cares. I ruined that guys year." I believe that saying that respect doesn't have anything to do with winning is completely wrong. You WILL LOSE without respect.

NASCAR (I know, I know) he would be in the wall every weekend if he pulled this kind of stuff.

[SDH]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

Lack of respect between drivers will lead to problems with in-fighting in teams, future teammate issues, sponsor issues, and could cost him points. Intentional blocking for example. If I knew I was racing someone who was dirty, and wrecked me last week, and he was vying for a title, I would park it on a hot lap during quali, etc. Ignore blue flags and block him if he was trying to lap me. Do anything I could to stop him from winning. Especially if I wasn't in contention. "5 second penalty? Bahhh who cares. I ruined that guys year." I believe that saying that respect doesn't have anything to do with winning is completely wrong. You WILL LOSE without respect.

This is a very good point

[David70]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

If I knew I was racing someone who was dirty, and wrecked me last week, and he was vying for a title, I would park it on a hot lap during quali, etc. Ignore blue flags and block him if he was trying to lap me. Do anything I could to stop him from winning. Especially if I wasn't in contention. "5 second penalty? Bahhh who cares. I ruined that guys year." I believe that saying that respect doesn't have anything to do with winning is completely wrong. You WILL LOSE without respect.

So based on your stipulations, if you were another driver you would do nothing to Verstappen?

Then there are few drivers that are secure enough in their positions to jeopardize their points, face penalties, etc. for the end game or screwing another driver. I could see the same blocking that he has been doing.

[P1]

He's 18. What do you expect.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by David70

So based on your stipulations, if you were another driver you would do nothing to Verstappen?

Then there are few drivers that are secure enough in their positions to jeopardize their points, face penalties, etc. for the end game or screwing another driver. I could see the same blocking that he has been doing.

I was just making the extreme argument. Many of the drivers know that they aren't going anywhere, and aren't winning. Nothing to lose in their season/contract. I'd start by petitioning the driver's commission to try to pressure the FIA to actually do something. By not penalizing, they are teaching him that what he is doing is right. They penalized Nico (who I dislike). Do you actually need to attempt to kill someone to get penalized these days? Oh, unless you are last place NASR for exceeding track limits.

5 second penalty doesn't change half of the standings on any given race at this point.

Vettel claimed that they (the drivers) should handle things themselves.

Again, NASCAR. Someone would put you in a wall. No if's, and's or but's. Probably rip your head off outside of the car as well.

I don't want to see this. I want the FIA to stop VES from dangerous racing before he does kill someone, or himself. Right now he flat out said that what he is doing is ok because he has not received a warning or penalty. He is not learning proper protocol/ethics when it comes to racing and apparently the FIA is the only thing he cares about.

/rant

[spumoni1984]

Originally Posted by David70

So based on your stipulations, if you were another driver you would do nothing to Verstappen?

Then there are few drivers that are secure enough in their positions to jeopardize their points, face penalties, etc. for the end game or screwing another driver. I could see the same blocking that he has been doing.

Not really - remember Webber/Grosjean "First lap nutcase"...After SPA, Japan, Webber calling him out, and some FIA intervention Romain has turned his act around.

same can be true for Max...he's got the talent, just needs to learn when it's ok to push. I'd bet hearing "nutcase" from Vettel or Alonso helps him...

[E92inNC]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

Have you not seen this?

Lol, he has talent no doubt but he might crash his way out of the sport. Won't the the first and certainly won't be the last. Hopes he gets it together.

[SSJTrunks523]

“I'd rather drive them off the track then let them go in front of me” - VES on Dutch TV. Tells you all that you need to know. The attitude needs to change.

"I need to hit the apex better, better speed out of corners, tired temp, etc. We need to work on downforce." That's what he should be saying and is the competitive driving that we all want (and know he can deliver).

Source and some translation:

In a Dutch interview Max Verstappen has said the following:

''Ferrari destroyed my race in turn 1. Therefore, I won't let them pass so easily. I would rather drive them off the track.'' And: ''I hope they will cry about me every race, that is good television.''

What are your thoughts on this? I think he has a lot to learn. Raikkonen did nothing wrong so I think it is strange he is so angry at him and defending too agressively. What bothers me is that his interview suggest he did not do this because of inexperience but because he was mad. I think it is unacceptable to cause very dangerous situations just because you are mad.

Source: https://www.autobahn.eu/1685/verstap...an-de-baan-af/

[hoyasaxa]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

“I'd rather drive them off the track then let them go in front of me” - VES on Dutch TV. Tells you all that you need to know. The attitude needs to change.

"I need to hit the apex better, better speed out of corners, tired temp, etc. We need to work on downforce." That's what he should be saying and is the competitive driving that we all want (and know he can deliver).

Source and some translation:

In a Dutch interview Max Verstappen has said the following:

''Ferrari destroyed my race in turn 1. Therefore, I won't let them pass so easily. I would rather drive them off the track.'' And: ''I hope they will cry about me every race, that is good television.''

What are your thoughts on this? I think he has a lot to learn. Raikkonen did nothing wrong so I think it is strange he is so angry at him and defending too agressively. What bothers me is that his interview suggest he did not do this because of inexperience but because he was mad. I think it is unacceptable to cause very dangerous situations just because you are mad.

Source: https://www.autobahn.eu/1685/verstap...an-de-baan-af/

Bingo. So as I was saying...

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by P1et

He's 18. What do you expect.

A future F1 World Champion !

"Mad-Max" is the best from the next generation...

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

Lack of respect between drivers will lead to problems with in-fighting in teams, future teammate issues, sponsor issues, and could cost him points. Intentional blocking for example. If I knew I was racing someone who was dirty, and wrecked me last week, and he was vying for a title, I would park it on a hot lap during quali, etc. Ignore blue flags and block him if he was trying to lap me. Do anything I could to stop him from winning. Especially if I wasn't in contention. "5 second penalty? Bahhh who cares. I ruined that guys year." I believe that saying that respect doesn't have anything to do with winning is completely wrong. You WILL LOSE without respect.

NASCAR (I know, I know) he would be in the wall every weekend if he pulled this kind of stuff.

Well, this isnt nascar now is it. And you write what you would do. As if the driver has all the power in the world. Its very simple, if your teamboss says let it slide and dont do anything stupid against that other driver or you make us look bad.... you dont do it. You seem to forget that F1 is a team sport.
There are dozens of cases of low respect between drivers in history. ever heard of prost and senna? They didnt gave eachother an inch and were willing to die for it so to speak.
And if you do all that, what do you think he'll do to you after that?
You havent put enough thought in this I think. You write this as if verstappen wanted to crash the other drivers. that's not the case.
So if you do something like that willingly, which you write here, there is only one who's loosing respect.....

To see how professionals go about this, look at how montoya once crashed in brazil...interesting connection in this case and how calm he was about that (and a lot of people here who speak with vengefulness feelings can learn a good lesson from this case). An error was made, thats it. And that was a really stupid error. but still not in the same league as doing something on purpose like you hint at. Now that is really unprofessional.
If those things happen at US nascar races, then that's clearly not at the same professional level as F1 racing. (I dont think I say something new here....)

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Well, this isnt nascar now is it. And you write what you would do. As if the driver has all the power in the world. Its very simple, if your teamboss says let it slide and dont do anything stupid against that other driver or you make us look bad.... you dont do it. You seem to forget that F1 is a team sport.
There are dozens of cases of low respect between drivers in history. ever heard of prost and senna? They didnt gave eachother an inch and were willing to die for it so to speak.
And if you do all that, what do you think he'll do to you after that?
You havent put enough thought in this I think. You write this as if verstappen wanted to crash the other drivers. that's not the case.
So if you do something like that willingly, which you write here, there is only one who's loosing respect.....

To see how professionals go about this, look at how montoya once crashed in brazil...interesting connection in this case and how calm he was about that (and a lot of people here who speak with vengefulness feelings can learn a good lesson from this case). An error was made, thats it. And that was a really stupid error. but still not in the same league as doing something on purpose like you hint at. Now that is really unprofessional.
If those things happen at US nascar races, then that's clearly not at the same professional level as F1 racing. (I dont think I say something new here....)

The drivers have a commission, where they are supposed to work with the FIA. They are supposed to have power over their own safety, so yes that is a proper assumption to make. VES has aggravated a lot of big name drivers at this point.

NASCAR is stock car racing, which contact is expected. It is actually part of the sport. They have guidelines as to how long you can bump draft at different circuits. Bump and run. F1 is open wheeled racing, where contact is avoided at all costs. I heavily prefer open wheeled, but watch F1, Indy, IndyLights, GP when it is on here, Rally, RallyX, Nascar Sprint, Xfinity (Sprint Cup Light), NCWTS Truck, Trofeo, MotoGP, list goes on. Trust me, I know the differences. F1 is easily my favorite. Please do not take my interest in all forms of racing as being an ignorant American. I simply said NASCAR because that's the easiest way to point out what would happen if VES killed someone driving like he has been.

I believe Montoya actually said that Stock car racing was the hardest that he ever drove. Sliding all of the time. I don't have the experience to compare. Track with street cars and off road rally only.

Read above. VES said he will take Ferrari out before letting the pass. This is not caring at all about the safety of others. Saying things like that do not get you sponsors, and as you said this is a team sport. Being reckless does not make a team want you, no matter how good you are. If you are unprofessional, people will be unprofessional back. That's all that I am saying.

Please provide 1 example where no one respecting a driver was a positive point to his career.

Bump and Run: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_a..._(auto_racing) - as recently as 2016 when teammates Carl Edwards did this to Kyle Busch (reigning champion)
NOTE: NEVER TO BE USED IN OPEN WHEELED RACING

[wdb]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

Vettel turned in assuming that Kimi would turn in, which he would have had Ves not decided to dive bomb and run off the track in a prayer move. You could tell his desperation by flying off the track for the entirety of the first lap.

I really like the kid, and he is incredibly talented, but at this rate he is going to kill someone. Probably Kimi if history is any judge.

First of all apologies, I know I'm a bit late to the thread. But Vettel was solely responsible for Turn 1. He was so determined to come out of the turn ahead of Kimi, who had outqualified him, that he pulled a stupid, rookie move. Come to think of it, he's starting to get on my nerves too.

I don't think Verstappen will be allowed to get to the "kill someone" point. He'll be put in his place by other drivers if the !@#$%^ stewards won't do their jobs -- which for some reason they don't seem to want to do in his case. Compare their treatment of Max to Grosjean's travails in his first year for example.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by wdb

First of all apologies, I know I'm a bit late to the thread. But Vettel was solely responsible for Turn 1. He was so determined to come out of the turn ahead of Kimi, who had outqualified him, that he pulled a stupid, rookie move. Come to think of it, he's starting to get on my nerves too.

I don't think Verstappen will be allowed to get to the "kill someone" point. He'll be put in his place by other drivers if the !@#$%^ stewards won't do their jobs -- which for some reason they don't seem to want to do in his case. Compare their treatment of Max to Grosjean's travails in his first year for example.

No problem lol. I think turn 1 was just a big mess. Vettel was over anxious, VES was dive-bombing trying to overcome a bad start at his home crowd. It was a racing incident, but lots of dumb in that turn.

I had a rant back there about how it was everyone but poor Ol' Kimi's fault.

VES is a huge draw and people like him. I like him! That's why they aren't doing anything. No other explanation.

The issue is that VES is already at that point. Kimi goes off at 300kph through the back of VES after a "dodgy move" and it will hurt. And someone just might die. And the stewards won't even give him a warning.

Full Disclosure: Ferrari fan (or Tifosi if you'd like), 2nd Red Bull, and anyone but Merc. I really like VES, and think he is extremely talented he just needs to calm down.

[redpriest]

Max Verstappen has managed to make himself more hated than Lewis.

[Mtxzptlk]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Max Verstappen has managed to make himself more hated than Lewis.

Lewis is hated?!!

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

The drivers have a commission, where they are supposed to work with the FIA. They are supposed to have power over their own safety, so yes that is a proper assumption to make. VES has aggravated a lot of big name drivers at this point.

Yes but read back what you wrote, You said deliberately try to sabotage him. How unprofessional is that?
so like I said, read back montoyas reaction on his brazil crash 15 years ago. thats what a professional does, not some vengefulness stuff like you're suggesting.imo that defines unprofessionalism.
You dont seem to see the difference between a racing accident and deliberately trying to damage someone even at your own expence, even when there is nothing to gain. so pure plain playground revenge.....
That is not how professionals act. because they know the other guy can do the same. thats no solution.
And the fact that there was no penalty explains a lot. No one wanted to give in so all 3 got burned. thats how it works and no one explicitly is to blame. and thus no one was blamed (by the ones who acutally are allowed to penalize one.)
If one (or more) were really out of line, theý would have gotten some sort of penalty.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes but read back what you wrote, You said deliberately try to sabotage him. How unprofessional is that?
so like I said, read back montoyas reaction on his brazil crash 15 years ago. thats what a professional does, not some vengefulness stuff like you're suggesting.imo that defines unprofessionalism.
You dont seem to see the difference between a racing accident and deliberately trying to damage someone even at your own expence, even when there is nothing to gain. so pure plain playground revenge.....
That is not how professionals act. because they know the other guy can do the same. thats no solution.
And the fact that there was no penalty explains a lot. No one wanted to give in so all 3 got burned. thats how it works and no one explicitly is to blame. and thus no one was blamed (by the ones who acutally are allowed to penalize one.)
If one (or more) were really out of line, theý would have gotten some sort of penalty.

I said if he crashed me by a deliberate move. And this was all hypothetical just trying to counter the fact that you said respect is not important


What VES is doing (not turn 1. we are talking about the blocks he is doing) is deliberate. He said it himself that he would crash an opponent to keep them behind him. He is the unprofessional one. You seem confused. VES is deliberately unsafe and sees nothing wrong with it because the FIA has not stepped in. Shame on them.

Read what i wrote. Check the article. These are his words, not mine.

I'm saying that you always want respect. You said respect doesn't matter in professional racing. I have displayed my point that it does. Professional or not, respect matters.

[SSJTrunks523]

Look, I'm not trying to get into a personal pissing match.

We all want fair, safe, fun, competitive racing. I just want someone to remind VES that safe is part of that.

Looking forward to a decade of great racing from VES. Hopefully he calms down so we can all enjoy that.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

I'm saying that you always want respect. You said respect doesn't matter in professional racing. I have displayed my point that it does. Professional or not, respect matters.

Like I said, no professinal racing driver will think I respect him so much, I think I'll let him pass.
Its competition. they'll try to do anything within what they can get away with. F1 history is full of that. Remember suzuka '89?
There's your respect. 2 of the most respected drivers in history, ever, but having no respect for eachother when on the track.
there's no such thing as respect between rivals when they're on the track. its win or loose.

the only thing that counts is the result. No driver will try to block a non rival and risc a penalty that can influence his own end result. He's there to get maximum result. any talk about respect is there for the media. to try and give the fans what they want. But on the track only the result counts.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Max is actually "not" a Dutchman , Max is 100% Belgian !
Only his F1 driver license is Dutch , the rest is Belgian...And I can prove it

That would explain his idiotic driving!