11-23-2011, 11:25 AM | #46 | |
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If BMW really put N55 in the F2x 1er and 2er, then the M2 will be forced to also have a N55, since in US market, people will not buy a turbo I4 M2, knowing there is a turbo I6 135i/235i available, no matter how BMW claim the I4 will save how many weight. No need to mention all people know the turbo I6 will have much better tuning potential than the I4. But now the N55 M2 will cause trouble for the F3x M3/M4, since they are all N55 based, it can be very easy to tune the M2 to have equal or higher hp output than the stock M3/M4; or we can say after tuning, both M2 and M3/M4 will have similar output. If this really happens, the M2 will not have sufficient gap with the M3/M4 to justify its existence. In this case, who will buy a much expensive and heavier M3/M4? This is very simple and straight forward logic, I just can't believe BMW will make such I6 135/235 decision. |
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11-23-2011, 12:13 PM | #47 | |
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Not trying to be condescending.... just trying to find similar real examples... |
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11-23-2011, 12:38 PM | #48 | |
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But M-car consumer normally are performance oriented, at least daily usage practicality is not their first priority. For example much more M3 coupes are sold than the M3 sedan. The same applied for M2 and M3/4 (especially M4), if somehow based on the same N55, M2 can matched M4's output and they share the same suspension, I won't give any credit for M4's backseat is roomier and even I won't consider M4 at all. |
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11-23-2011, 01:04 PM | #49 | |
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11-23-2011, 02:35 PM | #50 | ||
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In case BMW would decide for 135/235 with N55 and an M2 with S20 (N20 derivate) you could expect at least an S20 with 2.2 - 2.3l displacement with 160hp/l -> translating to 360-370 hp and of course all the other M goodies: More lightweight, different/wider track, LSD, Carbon roof... Never would I and many others prefere a boring N55 135i over such an M2! And regarding tuning potential: BMW does not have to care about it! How many percent of N55 owners will decide to tune? Less than 1 percent. So it simply doesn't matter. Moreover N55 is not that tuning friendly as N54 as we all know. Pushing it beyond 360hp (stable/reliably) needs more than just ECU update, but real hardware... a fool who is preferring this over a perfect package like an M2. Quote:
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11-23-2011, 03:26 PM | #51 | |
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Therefore at this moment it is extremely hard to persuade consumers in the US that for the same car model, fewer cylinder version can be better and more expensive than more cylinder version. Most people just do not believe this. It's like forcing them to change their religion, nearly impossible. |
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11-23-2011, 03:58 PM | #53 | |
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BMW sold 16,202 of E30 M3, and it sold 71,242 E36 M3 worldwide. See how number of cylinders can do the magic and dramatically change the sales? |
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11-23-2011, 04:45 PM | #54 |
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The E30 M3 won races, the E36 M3 won in sales figures. But the question wasn't about the E30 or the E36, it was about the E30 325i and M3.
And actually, it wasn't so much a question but more of an example how a 4 cylinder could be better than a 6 cylinder. |
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11-23-2011, 05:48 PM | #55 | |
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E30 M3 is the only car in BMW's recent history that a M car has fewer cylinders than its non-M version. After E30, next generations such as E36, E46, E90 M3's engine all have equal or more number of cylinders than their non-M versions. If using fewer cylinders for M car is really successful, BMW won't refuse to do it again, but they just do not do it after E30. You see, more cylinders means more cost to manufacture, more heavy weight on the front etc. But BMW still do it, there must be some very strong reasons. |
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11-23-2011, 06:13 PM | #56 |
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Time will tell. I'd prefer a straight six for a number of reasons. But when you look at the new 3 Series, BMW says the 328i is a better handling car than the 335i. Seems important to me for the M2.
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11-24-2011, 10:17 AM | #57 | |
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Ford is currently bucking the bigger is better trend with the Eco-Boost engine in their trucks. It is a sweet motor for a truck. With fuel prices where they are and the looming CAFE mandates, the smaller, forced induction engines should start gaining popularity. |
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11-24-2011, 02:39 PM | #58 | |
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It maybe that certain EU markets might not get the six cyl cars sold in them, due to the small numbers sold, in the same way that the E81/E87 130i was dropped from the UK market in 2009 because so few were being sold.
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11-24-2011, 10:55 PM | #59 |
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I've never driven an E30 M3, but from what I've read its engine has mostly top end power that needs to be revved very hard to get good performance. I think the six cylinder in the 325is from the same era was a better all rounder in normal usage. It was only when BMW brought out they six cylinder E36 M3, that the M3 sales started to become significant.
Last edited by John_01; 11-26-2011 at 04:41 AM.. Reason: just typos |
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11-27-2011, 09:55 PM | #60 |
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Don't you guys see that this argument is EXACTLY why BMW would have an M235i and a separate M2. So both camps can have the car they want, you can have a lighter 4 cylinder car with superior handling or you can have one that's a little more daily-driving oriented with a 6 cylinder.
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11-29-2011, 10:07 AM | #62 |
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can the n20 be bored and/or stroked to more than 2.0ltrs, say to 2.2? otherwise it seems problematic to exceed by an adequate margin the output of the 135/235 whether it has a further tuned n20(300hp/280ft-lbs) or worse yet an n55(300+hp/300+tq. with additional tuning potential). is half of the m5/m6 engine, in other words a v4 out of the question? i think that giving the 128/228 240hp and 260+tq. and 0-60mph about 5.5-5.7s, set the bar very high to create 2 models above it, particularly if the m2 must have 4cyl. i would have given the 128 a 3cyl w/ 180hp/195ft-lbs., the 135 an n20 w/240-250hp/266ft-lbs. keeping them as light as possible and the m2 a maximally tuned 2.2ltr. n20(or 2.2ltr. v4 if possible) with about 330hp/295-300tq., also as light as possible. of course 3cyl. might not sell in the u.s.
Last edited by hector; 11-29-2011 at 10:23 AM.. |
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