[pz619]

I wouldn't mind seeing BYD in the US market. Frankly, I want to see more EV competition here. I'd likely ditch my Tesla for one (I'm over Tesla).

The concerns above are valid I guess. But that's going to continue in other ways. Plus, tesla is already a mobile data gathering machine. I don't see the net result being drastically different in terms of theft of IP and tech.

[Car-Addicted]

It's called capitalism and it creates good paying American jobs.

Tesla employs over 70,000 workers across the United States, operating massive domestic manufacturing, engineering, and supply chain facilities.

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by Innovade

I take a more free market view on this. We should allow BYD to come in and compete against domestic companies. This increases innovation and forces companies like Tesla, GM and Ford to innovate faster. This all helps the consumer in the end with better EV's. Protectionism allows these companies to rest on their laurels and become fat and lazy.

That's exactly what the Chinese want westerners to think and that is why they will win every time. There is nothing free market about BYD or the Chinese auto industry. You are not going to compete with BYD who is heavily controlled and subsidized by the CCP. Europe is finding out exactly what happens when you allow them to come in and compete (unfairly) with the domestic makes. It's ruining the entire European car industry.

Free trade only works if it's fair. The west is going to figure this out far too late.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by silvermanor

That's exactly what the Chinese want westerners to think and that is why they will win every time. There is nothing free market about BYD or the Chinese auto industry. You are not going to compete with BYD who is heavily controlled and subsidized by the CCP. Europe is finding out exactly what happens when you allow then to come in a compete (unfairly) with the domestic makes. It's ruining the entire European car industry.

Free trade only works if it's fair. The west is going to figure this out far too late.

+1 well said...

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by silvermanor

That's exactly what the Chinese want westerners to think and that is why they will win every time. There is nothing free market about BYD or the Chinese auto industry. You are not going to compete with BYD who is heavily controlled and subsidized by the CCP. Europe is finding out exactly what happens when you allow them to come in and compete (unfairly) with the domestic makes. It's ruining the entire European car industry.

Free trade only works if it's fair. The west is going to figure this out far too late.

That is true that BYD receives government subsidies and support, just like hundreds of other EV companies within China. Tesla would not be the market leader today if it weren't for the same subsidies. It's not really fair to criticize BYD for something Tesla benefited massively from as well.

Legacy automakers only started pouring money into EV's after they realized how behind they are compared to other EV companies. This will widen if protectionism is still put in place. Without forcing them to innovate, we'll be living in a country where we're stuck paying premium prices for older, less efficient technology, while the rest of the world adopts highly advanced, affordable next generation vehicles.

[Altamate]

Originally Posted by Innovade

That is true that BYD receives government subsidies and support, just like hundreds of other EV companies within China. Tesla would not be the market leader today if it weren't for the same subsidies. It's not really fair to criticize BYD for something Tesla benefited massively from as well.

Legacy automakers only started pouring money into EV's after they realized how behind they are compared to other EV companies. This will widen if protectionism is still put in place. Without forcing them to innovate, we'll be living in a country where we're stuck paying premium prices for older, less efficient technology, while the rest of the world adopts highly advanced, affordable next generation vehicles.

American or Canadian companies competing against European companies or other counties that are free market is fine, let the chips fall where they may. Competing against the Chinese government is entirely different. I don’t know about you, but I won’t buy Chinese owned tech because that is Chinese government controlled tech. No to their phones, computers and cars for me.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

False Equivalency

Japan and Korea practices do not, have not included:

Theft (regular & recurring)

National Security (military espionage, cybersecurity)
IP [violations on every conceivable level)
Corporate espionage (ie technology)

Market Practices

“Unfair” trade restrictions to markets
Market & Price dumping
Trade imbalances imposed

...nuff said

Blah, blah, blah. You act as if the US doesn't do the exact same things around the world, if not to a higher degree.

[freakystyly]

At the end of the day people will see a $30k car and a $40k car that look the same and buy the cheaper one. Everything else doesn't matter.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Blah, blah, blah. You act as if the US doesn't do the exact same things around the world, if not to a higher degree.

No "act" here - - instead how 'bout YOU provide relevant, equivalent, objective examples rather hollow assertions stated...???

> Excluding 47s irrational, illegal

Specific criteria to derive a salient response:

Theft (regular & recurring)

• National Security (military espionage, cybersecurity)
• IP [violations on every conceivable level)
• Corporate espionage (ie technology)

Market Practices

• “Unfair” trade restrictions to markets
• Market & Price dumping
• Trade imbalances imposed

Let's see how it goes...

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by Altamate

American or Canadian companies competing against European companies or other counties that are free market is fine, let the chips fall where they may. Competing against the Chinese government is entirely different. I don’t know about you, but I won’t buy Chinese owned tech because that is Chinese government controlled tech. No to their phones, computers and cars for me.

You don’t need to buy them. No one needs to buy them if they don’t want to. The point is their mere existence in our market will force our domestic companies to be better. If not, they’ll happily continue selling high margin SUVs without any reason to innovate and develop better cars.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Blah, blah, blah. You act as if the US doesn't do the exact same things around the world, if not to a higher degree.

Has any one suggested that you might be happier somewhere else that worked better for your delicate sensibilities?

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Innovade

You don’t need to buy them. No one needs to buy them if they don’t want to. The point is their mere existence in our market will force our domestic companies to be better. If not, they’ll happily continue selling high margin SUVs without any reason to innovate and develop better cars.

Please do some research on the China dumping of the following:

Steel & Metals: Products like steel pipes, aluminum extrusions, rebar, wire rods, and temporary steel fencing.
Electronics & Tech: Crystalline solar photovoltaic cells/modules and LED lighting.
Chemicals: Glycine, ammonium sulfate, citric acid, methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI), and activated carbon.

I could go on but the list is long.

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Please do some research on the China dumping of the following:

Steel & Metals: Products like steel pipes, aluminum extrusions, rebar, wire rods, and temporary steel fencing.
Electronics & Tech: Crystalline solar photovoltaic cells/modules and LED lighting.
Chemicals: Glycine, ammonium sulfate, citric acid, methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI), and activated carbon.

I could go on but the list is long.

You are moving the goal posts now. Commodities being dumped is a separate discussion. My point is about consumer technology and product innovation.

If we use a permanent tariff to isolate our auto market, how does that force domestic automakers to better, more efficient and build affordable cars? History often shows that when you protect an industry from global competition, the product gets worse and the consumer ends up footing the bill.

I just don’t see how shielding these domestic automakers from competition makes them more competitive. If anything, in the long run it just makes it worse for everyone.

[Altamate]

Originally Posted by Innovade

You are moving the goal posts now. Commodities being dumped is a separate discussion. My point is about consumer technology and product innovation.

If we use a permanent tariff to isolate our auto market, how does that force domestic automakers to better, more efficient and build affordable cars? History often shows that when you protect an industry from global competition, the product gets worse and the consumer ends up footing the bill.

I just don’t see how shielding these domestic automakers from competition makes them more competitive. If anything, in the long run it just makes it worse for everyone.

I agree that competition is good and very necessary, but China is where I draw the line, the reasons have already been posted many times.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by Innovade

You are moving the goal posts now. Commodities being dumped is a separate discussion. My point is about consumer technology and product innovation.

If we use a permanent tariff to isolate our auto market, how does that force domestic automakers to better, more efficient and build affordable cars? History often shows that when you protect an industry from global competition, the product gets worse and the consumer ends up footing the bill.

I just don’t see how shielding these domestic automakers from competition makes them more competitive. If anything, in the long run it just makes it worse for everyone.

"History shows"...hmmmm, does it?
Enlighten us with objective data/info that support 'empty assertions', then correlate to actual, existing facts...
Specifically, what about?!?!

Theft (regular & recurring)

• National Security (military espionage, cybersecurity)
• IP [violations on every conceivable level)
• Corporate espionage (ie technology)

Market Practices

• “Unfair” trade restrictions to Chinese markets
• Market & Price dumping
• Trade imbalances imposed

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

"History shows"...hmmmm, does it?
Enlighten us with objective data/info that support 'empty assertions', then correlate to actual, existing facts...
Specifically, what about?!?!

Theft (regular & recurring)

• National Security (military espionage, cybersecurity)
• IP [violations on every conceivable level)
• Corporate espionage (ie technology)

Market Practices

• “Unfair” trade restrictions to Chinese markets
• Market & Price dumping
• Trade imbalances imposed

It’s one of the fundamental principles of economics 101. Here’s one that still hurts to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by Innovade

It’s one of the fundamental principles of economics 101. Here’s one that still hurts to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Wait What - - Chicken tax?!?!
Correlation to thread topic, issues, facts conspicuously absent...that according to your own post.

Originally Posted by Innovade

You are moving the goal posts now. Commodities being dumped is a separate discussion. My point is about consumer technology and product innovation.

If we use a permanent tariff to isolate our auto market, how does that force domestic automakers to better, more efficient and build affordable cars? History often shows that when you protect an industry from global competition, the product gets worse and the consumer ends up footing the bill...

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

Wait What - - Chicken tax?!?!
Correlation to thread topic, issues, facts conspicuously absent...that according to your own post.

Here’s more detail spoon fed to you since you did not bother reading the ramifications. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-a...-for-50-years/

You can lead a horse to water…

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by Innovade

Here’s more detail spoon fed to you since you did not bother reading the ramifications. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-a...-for-50-years/
You can lead a horse to water…

Ok fella, stick wit this off topic, divergent, 'bird brain' cackling response

> What-the-Cluck says it all ...a fitting movie line "chick'n lickin' is lickin' chick'n"

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe64

Ok fella, stick wit this off topic, divergent, 'bird brain' cackling response

> What-the-Cluck says it all ...a fitting movie line "chick'n lickin' is lickin' chick'n"

Explain how this topic is not relevant to what I am discussing? Specifically, how does an automotive tariff (chicken tax) off topic from a thread about the tariffs on BYD and the EV auto industry. The chicken tax resulted us in paying more for less in the auto industry and hurt consumers as a whole. You have no counter argument to any of the data I have provided to you and resorted to internet brain rot and memes.

[Car-Addicted]

Yah that Chiken tax is working soooooo well.

The mid-size Tacoma remains Toyota's top-selling truck, setting new brand records for consecutive years:
2025: 274,638 units (up 42.4% YoY)
2024: 192,813 units (impacted by early-year factory bottlenecks)
2023: ~235,000 units2021: 252,490 units

Nissan Frontier Annual U.S. Sales
2025: 67,027 units
2024: 69,813 units
2023: 50,146 units
2022: 70,705 units


OH by the way: Chinese tariffs on American small trucks (light trucks, pickups, and commercial vans)

2025January-April: As global trade restrictions escalated, China increased its tariffs on U.S. autos to 34%, which quickly surged to 84%, and eventually peaked at 125%.
2025May-December: Following negotiations, China and the U.S. temporarily agreed to mutual reductions, dropping the Chinese retaliatory tariff on U.S. goods to 10% and eventually stabilizing the average tariff rate on U.S. exports at 31.9%.
2026Current Status: The baseline rate on American small trucks and automotive parts stands at 31.9% for U.S. origin goods, with China also applying a targeted 10% to 25% duty on specific U.S. large-displacement engines and pickup trucks.

That is not even touching on Currency manipulation:

China's practice of artificially undervaluing its currency acts as a massive indirect subsidy that undercuts US-made vehicles and components. By keeping the renminbi (RMB) cheap, China makes its auto parts and vehicles significantly cheaper globally. This exacerbates the US trade deficit and floods the market with state-subsidized products.

[Innovade]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Yah that Chiken tax is working soooooo well.

The mid-size Tacoma remains Toyota's top-selling truck, setting new brand records for consecutive years:
2025: 274,638 units (up 42.4% YoY)
2024: 192,813 units (impacted by early-year factory bottlenecks)
2023: ~235,000 units2021: 252,490 units

Nissan Frontier Annual U.S. Sales
2025: 67,027 units
2024: 69,813 units
2023: 50,146 units
2022: 70,705 units


OH by the way: Chinese tariffs on American small trucks (light trucks, pickups, and commercial vans)

2025January-April: As global trade restrictions escalated, China increased its tariffs on U.S. autos to 34%, which quickly surged to 84%, and eventually peaked at 125%.
2025May-December: Following negotiations, China and the U.S. temporarily agreed to mutual reductions, dropping the Chinese retaliatory tariff on U.S. goods to 10% and eventually stabilizing the average tariff rate on U.S. exports at 31.9%.
2026Current Status: The baseline rate on American small trucks and automotive parts stands at 31.9% for U.S. origin goods, with China also applying a targeted 10% to 25% duty on specific U.S. large-displacement engines and pickup trucks.

That is not even touching on Currency manipulation:

China's practice of artificially undervaluing its currency acts as a massive indirect subsidy that undercuts US-made vehicles and components. By keeping the renminbi (RMB) cheap, China makes its auto parts and vehicles significantly cheaper globally. This exacerbates the US trade deficit and floods the market with state-subsidized products.

The criticism isn’t that no foreign trucks are sold. The criticism is foreign competition was reduced, prices are higher and less innovation as a result. Have you seen the cost of a new Tacoma today? These are supposed to be affordable light weight work trucks.

No one has answered my main point. How does protection from competition make our domestic automakers better? It doesn’t. It allows them to become complacent. The Chinese having tariffs on our trucks will hurt their auto industry too.