[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Really.

Regardless of how pretty something is, it'll first have to get you to where you're going, and second bring some sort of return when you're changing it for something else.

Kia is much better than they used to be, but still overall trash compared to Nissan.

Agree to disagree. I think Nissan/Infiniti have become a lost cause.

[arashir]

It's hard for me to look at Motor Trend as anything more than an advertisement catalog for automakers.

But I'm not impressed with any of the latest BMWs either

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Agree to disagree. I think Nissan/Infiniti have become a lost cause.

Yes, agree to disagree on this one.

[JasonDot]

Motor Trend is an advertising platform.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by JasonDot

Motor Trend is an advertising platform.

agree

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Agree to disagree. I think Nissan/Infiniti have become a lost cause.

The outlook is pretty bleak for Mazda, Nissan, and Mitsubishi.

[freakystyly]

I think with Mazda trying to scale up their lineup to be more "luxury oriented" they don't really fit in any category properly anymore. They do build nice cars but are still somehow too expensive to fit in the Asian competitors and too cheap to fit in with the Germans.

Nissan is still a "cheap" car brand but they seem to have lost their R&D department somewhere over the last decade. Infinity similar minus the "cheap".

Mitsubishi.. should probably get new management or pull out soon with only 3 vehicles and poor sales. They wont die as a company (too big in Japan).

Just my opinion!

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Nissan is still a "cheap" car brand but they seem to have lost their R&D department somewhere over the last decade. Infinity similar minus the "cheap".

I wouldn't call them 'cheap' by any means, but what is 200% true is just how behind Nissan really is. My 07 Mazda had better fit, better interior plastics, and far less quality issue than my newer 11 370Z when I got it.

The Ariya better be groundbreaking if Nissan is to salvage anything these days, although the new Rogue does look pretty nice personally.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by kyriian

I wouldn't call them 'cheap' by any means, but what is 200% true is just how behind Nissan really is. My 07 Mazda had better fit, better interior plastics, and far less quality issue than my newer 11 370Z when I got it.

The Ariya better be groundbreaking if Nissan is to salvage anything these days, although the new Rogue does look pretty nice personally.

New Rogue does look like an improvement, a much needed one at that too, but as with any Nissan, for me at least, CVT = no sale.

I love the new Mazda products. Its a shame they will never be a sales success because they really do deserve it more than some other brands which are arguably much worse.

[freakystyly]

Subaru is another that could fit in that grouping but they still do sell reasonably well. I don't know if its marketing or brand loyalty.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Subaru is another that could fit in that grouping but they still do sell reasonably well. I don't know if its marketing or brand loyalty.

Definitely loyalty. The owners are kind of like the mainstream Volvo in a way, well before Volvo's were beautiful at least. They have the image of safety, at least that's my view. I personally have never understood it, I find Subaru's overhyped.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Really.

Regardless of how pretty something is, it'll first have to get you to where you're going, and second bring some sort of return when you're changing it for something else.

Kia is much better than they used to be, but still overall trash compared to Nissan.

Is your claim anecdotal or based on studies/surveys?

According to JD Power 2020 Dependability Study, Kia was rated #13 brand (tied with Hyundai) with 132 problems per 100; and Nissan was rated #16 with 136 problems per 100.

According to Consumer Reports, 2021 Reliability Report, Nissan was rated #13 brand with a reliability score of 51; and Kia was at #15 with score of 45.

So JD Power actually had Kia being slightly better while CR had Nissan slightly better. Either way these results show they are pretty close in reliability, which is consistent with my initial thoughts.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Is your claim anecdotal or based on studies/surveys?

According to JD Power 2020 Dependability Study, Kia was rated #13 brand (tied with Hyundai) with 132 problems per 100; and Nissan was rated #16 with 136 problems per 100.

According to Consumer Reports, 2021 Reliability Report, Nissan was rated #13 brand with a reliability score of 51; and Kia was at #15 with score of 45.

So JD Power actually had Kia being slightly better while CR had Nissan slightly better. Either way these results show they are pretty close in reliability, which is consistent with my initial thoughts.

It's based on my experience in the car business. And even if they were the same quality, and they're not, but even if they were the public still expects to pay less for a Kia than a Nissan, so your resale will suffer.

Also, JD Power and Consumer Reports are complete trash. It's about like asking google what the best of anything is. If you're looking to them for advice you don't know anything about cars.

If you want to know about cars, ask the guys that sell cars, ask them about their used inventory, what they will keep and what they won't. Ask them what starts on a cold morning, and what doesn't. Ask them because they know, and they aren't being paid to feed you a line of bull.

My 2¢

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

It's based on my experience in the car business. And even if they were the same quality, and they're not, but even if they were the public still expects to pay less for a Kia than a Nissan, so your resale will suffer.

Also, JD Power and Consumer Reports are complete trash. It's about like asking google what the best of anything is. If you're looking to them for advice you don't know anything about cars.

If you want to know about cars, ask the guys that sell cars, ask them about their used inventory, what they will keep and what they won't. Ask them what starts on a cold morning, and what doesn't. Ask them because they know, and they aren't being paid to feed you a line of bull.

My 2¢

Or the post I saw recently where a BMW sales associate when asked if the car has a704 suspension said he didn't know what that was.

CR reliability is not based on the opinions of CR employees. It is a compilation of what thousands of user have reported.

I will stick with CR over a random sales person's opinion.

[jmack]

Even talking to non-car people, the general consensus is that Kia/Hyundai have surpassed Nissan. Nissan is only known for the their 400 credit score Sentra leases and exploding transmissions. Kia has some premium cred with the Palisade and Stinger at least.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by jmack

Even talking to non-car people, the general consensus is that Kia/Hyundai have surpassed Nissan. Nissan is only known for the their 400 credit score Sentra leases and exploding transmissions. Kia has some premium cred with the Palisade and Stinger at least.

Agree. My son's friend recently got a Kia K5 for his first car. Really nice and competitive options coming from the brand, and really stylish too. I also have a friend with a Stinger, an excellent alternative to the Germans, all thanks to Hyundai hiring Albert Biermann and many other talented employees of German brands.

I've heard of far too many issues with modern Nissans, especially the CVT's, that and the quality isn't what it use to be. If I wanted Japanese I'd avoid Nissan and go straight for Toyota or Mazda.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

Or the post I saw recently where a BMW sales associate when asked if the car has a704 suspension said he didn't know what that was.

And what that has to do with quality, reliability and resale is beyond me. A salesman should know his product, but he has things to do, he can't be memorizing suspension codes. And for what that's worth, I don't know what the a704 suspension is, and I'm very knowledgeable about other aspects.

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

CR reliability is not based on the opinions of CR employees. It is a compilation of what thousands of user have reported.

Idiot users that give great reviews for all manner of things that don't pertain to reliability and resale. CR is so 1980's.

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I will stick with CR over a random sales person's opinion.

And I'll stick with first-hand experience.

[TH868Civils]

KIA isn't a bad choice after all.

[AlexFL]

Kia is basically the new Nissan. Nissan/Infinity used to make some epic cars in the past. I must admit that I still admire the contemporary design of a Nissan Murano when I see one on the road.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Definitely loyalty. The owners are kind of like the mainstream Volvo in a way, well before Volvo's were beautiful at least. They have the image of safety, at least that's my view. I personally have never understood it, I find Subaru's overhyped.

I've owned an STI and my wife is driving an Outback today. To me the brand has a reputation today that far exceeds the reality. They can't build a decent engine. Probably the worst engines in the industry and to make matters worse they have followed the blueprint of Nissan going all CVT. For some reason Nissan get a lot of flack for this but Subaru's doesn't. That said if you get one with an engine that lasts they are somewhat dependable and handle all weather conditions like a champ.

I'm not bullish on their future though as their claim to fame is symmetrical AWD and boxer engines. Once the industry goes AWD every automaker will be on the same playing field of offering a single motor 2WD or dual motor AWD. Subaru could stick to AWD but won't be able to hide the costs of the additional motor like they can with their cheap AWD systems today. They will have nothing to separate them from Nissan or any other brand.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

The outlook is pretty bleak for Mazda, Nissan, and Mitsubishi.

Originally Posted by freakystyly

I think with Mazda trying to scale up their lineup to be more "luxury oriented" they don't really fit in any category properly anymore. They do build nice cars but are still somehow too expensive to fit in the Asian competitors and too cheap to fit in with the Germans.

On the surface, from a strategic perspective, one could be convinced Mazda has absolutely lost their minds investing in an all-new gasoline/diesel I6 engine family and all-new premium platform to put them in just as everyone else is winding down ICE R&D and building toward an electric future. Yes, they've got an EV now too, but its largely unimpressive and not necessarily suited for global sales.

However, I wonder if they might have their sites set on a merger in the next few years. Perhaps, rather than trying joining the electric rat race, they've determined that building up an attractive portfolio of ICE assets will make them attractive in a marriage to a partner (maybe even one of the many new players) who's gone all-in on electric. After all, the combustion engine still powers the vast majority of vehicles and still has many years left in it. Maybe this is the method to their madness?

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Kia is much better than they used to be, but still overall trash compared to Nissan.

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

It's based on my experience in the car business. And even if they were the same quality, and they're not, but even if they were the public still expects to pay less for a Kia than a Nissan, so your resale will suffer.

Also, JD Power and Consumer Reports are complete trash. It's about like asking google what the best of anything is. If you're looking to them for advice you don't know anything about cars.

If you want to know about cars, ask the guys that sell cars, ask them about their used inventory, what they will keep and what they won't. Ask them what starts on a cold morning, and what doesn't. Ask them because they know, and they aren't being paid to feed you a line of bull.

My 2¢

To summarize then, Kia is "overall trash" and JD Power and Consumer Reports "are complete trash" but "if you want to know about cars, ask the guys that sell cars."

With due respect, I've spoken with a lot of 'guys that sells cars' over the years and many of them know little even of the cars they sell. Many times I've asked a car salesman, even supposedly award winning ones, a technical detail and they simply got it wrong. If it's a question of whether one should believe JD Power that's based on scientific methods and CR based on statistical and analytical techniques, versus the opinion of a guy that sells cars - again, with all due respect - I'd trust JD Power and CR each and every time.

Oh and, BTW, according to the latest JD Power study, the three most dependable auto brands in the U.S. are now Lexus, Porsche and Kia. They said of Kia: "Kia vehicles have notably risen from among the least dependable auto brands in the U.S. to most dependable in just a decade, with 97 problems per 100 vehicles on average. Toyota was near the top of the list with 98 problems per 100 vehicles."

No bad for "overall trash." [PS: I can't believe I'm defending Kia!]