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      06-10-2013, 10:42 AM   #1
Bob UK
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120d Sport Engine Noise

Please check this short clip, the first part you can hear the normal diesel chug and very faintly for those with sharp hearing a swish swish noise. This swish noise is what I wonder about, it's easier to pick out after I move to the side. The noise is most noticeable when the engine is warm.



Is it normal or something I should get looked at, car has only covered 10k miles, the last 600 by me over my first month of ownership.

I have just washed the car but the sun came out before I could dry it properly so sorry for the water staining.
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      06-13-2013, 06:20 AM   #2
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That happen to N47D20 - might be chain or generator belt.
Advise you ask serviceman at official service.

If the reason of the noise is a chain - cost of fixing that might go to BMW as this is typical problem with N47.
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      06-18-2013, 01:06 PM   #3
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Hi Bob did you get this looked at?

Mine exhibits the same behaviour/noise. I'm fairly certain it didn't do this when i got the car at 7k miles, it's got 9k on it now
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      06-18-2013, 04:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck View Post
That happen to N47D20 - might be chain or generator belt.
Advise you ask serviceman at official service.

If the reason of the noise is a chain - cost of fixing that might go to BMW as this is typical problem with N47.
According to the PUMA cars built after about mid 2011 have no risk of timing chain breaking as modified parts should already be fitted so unlikely to get any joy under warranty. I suspect the noise is actually an auxilliary belt and is normal but I'm keeping an ear on it for changes.
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      06-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob UK View Post
According to the PUMA cars built after about mid 2011 have no risk of timing chain breaking as modified parts should already be fitted so unlikely to get any joy under warranty. I suspect the noise is actually an auxilliary belt and is normal but I'm keeping an ear on it for changes.
True in the UK

However EU PUMAs appear to acknowledge a separate issue in post-2011 N47s involving the timing chain guides - see here

http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=45004

This French PUMA dated 14/12/2012 has a new "case 3":

Quote:
Case 3:



For N47T engine part products from 01.03.2011 and engines already repaired with rails deguidage without reinforcements.

In case of customer complaint, replace the following parts:



- 11 31 8 506 652 chain below.

- 13 52 7 797 906 sprocket for driving the oil pump.

- 11 31 8 510 014 upper chain.

- 13 52 8 573 158 guide rail for lower chain.

- 13 52 8 573 159 rail for timing chain tensioner below.
Compared to the numerous DPF issues that my VAG TDI-CR mates engines have had, and the swirlflap issues with the old M47, I still rate the N47 as a cracking diesel - although whoever decided to put the timing chain at the back needs shooting.
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Last edited by orcomma; 06-18-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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      06-19-2013, 06:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcomma View Post
whoever decided to put the timing chain at the back needs shooting.
Seconded in spades!

It's good Andy got his sorted and if we still have chain issues in the UK BMW need to stop giving us the brush off when we present with a car that sounds less the ultimate driving machine, more the washing machine.
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      06-19-2013, 06:47 AM   #7
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i know, it's a serviceable component! it defeats the advantage of longitudinal engines having the consumables are within easy reach.

does anyone know what the official timing chain renewal schedule is? and has anyone got a quote for having that service done by a dealer? might lead to an exodus of N47 owners dumping their cars just before the chain renewal service - and a load of poor unknowing customers buying "approved used"s that blow up a few months down the line with no promise of a warranty because the chain is "serviceable"! (maybe I am exaggerating!)

either way the N47 is 6 years old now and by BMW standards that means the replacement (P47?) may be due within the next 2-3 years.
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      06-19-2013, 06:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob UK View Post
According to the PUMA cars built after about mid 2011 have no risk of timing chain breaking as modified parts should already be fitted so unlikely to get any joy under warranty. I suspect the noise is actually an auxilliary belt and is normal but I'm keeping an ear on it for changes.
This is not the first time they claim chain issue is fixed.
However it is not - I personally seen F20 120d with the same issue - car was built end 2012, has milage approx 8000 km at the moment.
Local dealer confirmed this case is under warranty.
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      06-19-2013, 06:54 AM   #9
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additional - have you tried using a hoover tube to locate the noise? one end on the ear and the other at the front of the engine / back of the engine to channel the noise and determine if its the fan belt or timing chain. old tip me dad taught me.
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      06-19-2013, 08:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcomma View Post
additional - have you tried using a hoover tube to locate the noise? one end on the ear and the other at the front of the engine / back of the engine to channel the noise and determine if its the fan belt or timing chain. old tip me dad taught me.
Now that is a good idea, I was thinking about a sound probe but never considered a hoover hose.

I have a good indy near me that knows the engines well, may get them to have a listen and see what they think.

Must have a camera handy to record the expressions as I waltz in swinging a length of hoover pipe and asking who fancies a listen.
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      06-20-2013, 12:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob UK View Post
Now that is a good idea, I was thinking about a sound probe but never considered a hoover hose.

I have a good indy near me that knows the engines well, may get them to have a listen and see what they think.

Must have a camera handy to record the expressions as I waltz in swinging a length of hoover pipe and asking who fancies a listen.
Garden hose is also an alternative for this purpose.
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      06-20-2013, 02:21 AM   #12
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      06-20-2013, 03:20 AM   #13
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Hi.

What should i do then? My car is demonstrating a noise now and i believe it to be related to the above case mentioned. I've got a dealer near where i work and one near where i live, i guess try them both and see?
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      06-20-2013, 03:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonflames View Post
Hi.

What should i do then? My car is demonstrating a noise now and i believe it to be related to the above case mentioned. I've got a dealer near where i work and one near where i live, i guess try them both and see?
I'd book it in for an inspection and get you concerns logged.
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      06-20-2013, 04:05 AM   #15
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My concern about going straight to the dealer so soon after the updated PUMA is to get some knowitall mastertech saying "the issue stops in 2011 end of".

Rather wait until the new 2012 PUMA has chance to be dispersed and digested (via referesher training maybe).

I still have 18 months on my warranty so happy to wait for a bit (just my personal position)
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      06-20-2013, 05:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcomma View Post
My concern about going straight to the dealer so soon after the updated PUMA is to get some knowitall mastertech saying "the issue stops in 2011 end of".

Rather wait until the new 2012 PUMA has chance to be dispersed and digested (via referesher training maybe).

I still have 18 months on my warranty so happy to wait for a bit (just my personal position)
Same here I'm in warranty till Jul 2015 and will be watching for the new PUMA, hopefully the UK one will fall in line with those in other countries and we will then have grounds for action.

Form an orderly queue chaps.

Really if the chattery aspect of the engine was addressed it would be a great lump to sit behind as economy and performance are great.
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      06-20-2013, 06:36 AM   #17
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I actually have high hopes for my local dealer because we had a good dialogue over the rear-shockers issue, in the end they admitted they didnt know about the PUMA and only found it after I asked them to check the database. 10/10 for honesty. fixed the knocking like a charm

Makes me think that if I walked in and said "my derv sounds a bit chainy at the back, I read online of an updated 2012+ PUMA for it within the EU, please could you do the honours" they would check and fix without hassle (nice bit of paid labour for them)

The thought of the cost of replacing the chain at the required interval though does make me want to get rid of before its due. Also I just re-did the mental arithmetic and it is in fact 21 months of warranty left not 15! so im even more comfortable with that (plus my driving is about 60% motorway on cruise control - no stop-start jerky stresses for the chain).
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      06-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by orcomma View Post
I actually have high hopes for my local dealer because we had a good dialogue over the rear-shockers issue, in the end they admitted they didnt know about the PUMA and only found it after I asked them to check the database. 10/10 for honesty. fixed the knocking like a charm

Makes me think that if I walked in and said "my derv sounds a bit chainy at the back, I read online of an updated 2012+ PUMA for it within the EU, please could you do the honours" they would check and fix without hassle (nice bit of paid labour for them)

The thought of the cost of replacing the chain at the required interval though does make me want to get rid of before its due. Also I just re-did the mental arithmetic and it is in fact 21 months of warranty left not 15! so im even more comfortable with that (plus my driving is about 60% motorway on cruise control - no stop-start jerky stresses for the chain).
I don't intend to treat mine overly gently, I don't abuse my cars but I'll use it as intended and if it goes or get's unbearably loud. I'll be in a dealership desk banging until something gets done about it.
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      06-20-2013, 03:23 PM   #19
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What is this PUMA you are talking about?
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      06-20-2013, 04:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
What is this PUMA you are talking about?
http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=45004

Case 3 is of interest for post-2011 N47s

Quote:
one for France dated 14.12.12

So uk BMW must have the same



PuMA



Consult measure M



No measurement Theme

43863106-09 N47, N47S, N47T, grinding noise in the engine, the timing chain scrapes



Validation date (dd / mm / yy) Current Status Affiliate

Validated 14/12/12 FR, VP



Vehicles involved



Series E Motor Body

E60 E61 E81 E82 E83 N47 N47S N47DKO N47T

E84 E87 E88 E90 E91

E92 E93 F10 F11 F20

F25 F30 F31



Production period (beyond) Comment period Return info (all cases

(Dd / mrn / yy) production until) (dd / mnn / yy) /



Complaint

Engine noise and friction scraping type from 1500 rev / min, perceptible in the cockpit. The noise is noticeable on the gearbox housing or the oil pan.



Cause

Sharp edges of the sprockets or the chain does not move regularly on the slides.



Important measure:

before starting the repair, ensure the availability of essential items!



It is necessary to distinguish between three cases:



case 1:



for motors N47, N47DKO, N47S, production period from 01.03.2007 to 05.01.2009.

In case of customer complaint, replace the following components:



- 11 21 7 803 479 replacement crankshaft with bearing shells.



Note: Use crankshafts produced after 5. 1. 2009!

The production date stamped on the crankshaft sprocket (see Appendix, page 1.)

Meaning of numbers

- The first two digits indicate the production line.

- The six digits indicate the year (two digits), month, and day.

- The last five digits are the serial number of the crankshaft. The crankshaft shown on page 1 of the Annex has been made October 21, 2009.



- 11 41 7 797 896 chain drive of the oil pump.

- 11 31 8 506 652 chain below.

- 13 52 7 797 906 sprocket drive the oil pump.

- 11 27 7 800 523 gear (intermediate gear for balancing shafts).

- 11 27 7 802 575 pinion (drive shaft balancing).

- 11 27 7 802 576 pinion (drive shaft balancing).

- 11 31 8 510 014 upper chain.

- 11 31 7 797 899 guide rail for upper timing chain.

- 13 52 8 573 158 guide rail for timing chain lower

- 13 52 8 573 159 rail for timing chain tensioner below.



Note: the lower chain, use only the rails and tensioners guidageamortis! (See Appendix, page 2)

For greater supply chain, use only the rail without reinforcements! (See Appendix, page 3)



Note: according tune and repair instructions for the idler lesarbres balancing!

If the idler gear and balancer shafts are set incorrectly, the engine can produce a crankshaft with nine bruitsmême, etc.. View manual repair 11 21 500 "replacement of the crankshaft."



Note: On vehicles on which the crankshaft has been replaced under uneréparation previous:

treat these vehicles as described in "case 2".



Case 2:



for motors N47, N47DKO, N47S, N47T period from production of 05.01.2009 - 01.03.2011

In case of customer complaint, replace the following parts:



- 11 31 8 506 652 chain below.

- 13 52 7 797 906 sprocket for driving the oil pump.

- 11 31 8 510 014 upper chain.

- 11 31 7 797 899 guide rail for upper timing chain.

- 13 52 8 573 158 guide rail for lower chain.

- 13 52 8 573 159 rail for timing chain tensioner below.



Note: it is not necessary to loosen the bolt on the idler for the arbresd'équilibrage



Note: the lower chain, use only the rails and tensioners guidageamortis l (see Appendix, page 2)

For greater supply chain, use only the rail without reinforcements! (See Appendix, page 3)



Note: On vehicles having already been under repair track without reinforcements and surlesquels both chains have been replaced: treat these vehicles as indicated inparagraph "Case 3).



Case 3:



For N47T engine part products from 01.03.2011 and engines already repaired with rails deguidage without reinforcements.

In case of customer complaint, replace the following parts:



- 11 31 8 506 652 chain below.

- 13 52 7 797 906 sprocket for driving the oil pump.

- 11 31 8 510 014 upper chain.

- 13 52 8 573 158 guide rail for lower chain.

- 13 52 8 573 159 rail for timing chain tensioner below.
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      06-20-2013, 05:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I don't intend to treat mine overly gently, I don't abuse my cars but I'll use it as intended and if it goes or get's unbearably loud. I'll be in a dealership desk banging until something gets done about it.
This.

After the paranoia of driving around in 2 diesels with known expensive issues before I just won't entertain ownership without a full warranty.

Had the chain go on a previous 1 series 2 weeks after the warranty expired. Full BMW service history and a known issue on PUMA so they covered the full £2.5k as good will. I therefor have faith in them.
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      06-20-2013, 11:46 PM   #22
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I still don't understand what PUMA means.
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