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      01-21-2013, 07:53 PM   #45
KoenG
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Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
This is my favourite thread since a few days. Pretty good discussion here. For me very simple, slippery road conditions and cold weather to handle most of the time then get the xdrive, dry and clear weather dominating where you live get a rwd. If it is your only car and you have a family with kids, be responsible and get the xdrive in 5 door regardless of road/weather conditions.

I would love to have a M135i xdrive five door, only to company my 1M. rwd-6 speed-manual-2 door coupe in VO vs. xdrive-8 speed auto-five door hatch in Estoril Blue. Different beasts for different moments. Perfect 2 car garage.
Would be a very nice dream garage indeed! I guess with your summary you're right. I'am just a bit "anxious" because several members seem to be convinced that the xDrive has inferior handling.

And... even when this is true, it's only marginal, not even detectable by an amateur like me I guess. Most "foolish" but spirited drivers will most probably appreciate the benefits of xDrive in combination with the ooomph of the engine. Certainly under mixed weather conditions and certainly when you don't commute daily to work over a F1 rated circuit...

As much as I would like to, I don't... so sad...
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      01-21-2013, 08:06 PM   #46
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I just caught this in autocar UK about the 320i xDrive... sums it up rather good:

"This combination of real-world speed and exemplary body control is taken to another level with the extraordinary grip and stability delivered by the all-wheel drive system. There is never any sense of when, or how, it is working, just an enormous confidence in the ability of the car to pull out of bends on hard acceleration, as well as remaining unruffled by standing water and poor surfaces. Even when driven in anger, this is a very calm car to pilot."

When this is true for the 320i, it will most certainly be true for the M135i I guess. It is just this what I want to see in a capable modern performance car: irrespective conditions, get driveline intelligence on board to feed power to each axle and wheel with the most grip at hand. You as a driver can corner hard and accelerate hard, the car will micro-manage how to deliver this. When you consider you can have this intelligence for about 600€ extra (in Belgium) it would be a shame to leave it unchecked on your purchase order.
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      01-22-2013, 01:31 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
I just caught this in autocar UK about the 320i xDrive... sums it up rather good:

"This combination of real-world speed and exemplary body control is taken to another level with the extraordinary grip and stability delivered by the all-wheel drive system. There is never any sense of when, or how, it is working, just an enormous confidence in the ability of the car to pull out of bends on hard acceleration, as well as remaining unruffled by standing water and poor surfaces. Even when driven in anger, this is a very calm car to pilot."

When this is true for the 320i, it will most certainly be true for the M135i I guess. It is just this what I want to see in a capable modern performance car: irrespective conditions, get driveline intelligence on board to feed power to each axle and wheel with the most grip at hand. You as a driver can corner hard and accelerate hard, the car will micro-manage how to deliver this. When you consider you can have this intelligence for about 600€ extra (in Belgium) it would be a shame to leave it unchecked on your purchase order.
+1
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      01-22-2013, 02:12 AM   #48
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The second phase after APEX, you want to pick up speed while "opening" up the turn and gradually reduce steering angle. Here the AWD will send torque to the front tires, and by consequence have a higher tendency to understeer. Because of the mechanism you describe, the max attainable transversal grip is smaller, but in this phase the max is rather never exploited, or you have done something wrong and need to recover. On top, a higher tendency to understeer is not felt as a joy killer in the second half of the turn since the car is already anticipating on reducing steering angle via the accelerator even before you actually steer out.
Yes, that is what I mean by AWD having to open the line more when going back on the throttle out of corners. This suits low speed corners. In a long sweeper and high speed corners, you want to maintain a high cornering speed, and you don't accelerate so hard. Usually you don't even have all that much torque left at the driven wheels at higher speeds, so full throttle is not enough to unsettle the car with RWD. (F=P/V)

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I believe that this is what intelligent AWD systems tend to do: before apex, don't engage Front wheels to avoid understeer in this critical phase and don't compromise max attainable transversal grip, after apex, engage the Front wheels to help straightening the car and max acceleration.
Yes, the best approach would be to stay 100 percent RWD until the rear wheels approach the limit, and then start feeding additional power to the front. Then you would get the best of both worlds. Unfortunately most AWD systems send 40-50 percent of the power to the front right from the start.
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      01-22-2013, 02:19 AM   #49
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I'am just a bit "anxious" because several members seem to be convinced that the xDrive has inferior handling.
Maybe not so much inferior as different. I tend to like lively handling with plenty of oversteer action, and I hate understeer. RWD is definitely the way to go for me, but I would not recommend it to everybody. AWD has its advantages.
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      01-22-2013, 05:13 AM   #50
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I'll decide in a few days after I have driven it, but for now I tend to go for the RWD.

I guess the RWD will be a little more fun, whereas the xDrive will be a little more safe. I've read that the RWD has tons of grip though, even in the wet, so I don't expect it to slide all over the place if you want to merge quickly onto a freeway.
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      01-22-2013, 05:37 AM   #51
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Maybe not so much inferior as different. I tend to like lively handling with plenty of oversteer action, and I hate understeer. RWD is definitely the way to go for me, but I would not recommend it to everybody. AWD has its advantages.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I've had an AWD car and it was only marginally fun during winter (when driving isn't at its best anyway) but when it's dry and sunny it makes the whole experience a bit boring and train-like. To each their own, I guess.
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      01-22-2013, 05:57 PM   #52
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Maybe not so much inferior as different. I tend to like lively handling with plenty of oversteer action, and I hate understeer. RWD is definitely the way to go for me, but I would not recommend it to everybody. AWD has its advantages.
Although we say the same, I guess we don't at the same time...

The understeer behaviour of a car is less AWD/RWD traction influenced than the suspension geometry and vehicle architecture in general. The RS3 is slaughtered by Chris Harris in comparision with the RWD M135i but not because it is a quattro but rather because the center of gravity is positioned too much to the front of the car and the setup of geometry prefers understeer. I guess when you check the video again, you'll see the RS3 going wide before apex, the moment that Chris is braking, putting ZERO traction on the front, this is the evidence you need to eliminate directing torque to the front as being the culprit for lousy steer-in behaviour.

Well, I'am pretty certain that the xDrive M135i exhibits very comparable dynamical behaviour to the RWD M135i and demonstrates comparable test results even with AWD and the compromis between lateral and transversal etc...

One point I follow, for overpowered powerslides, the RWD is king since a dot of power before apex will make the car tail happy, while the xDrive will just go a bit understeered during identical circumstances. But frankly, is this the way you drive in reality or rather in your dreams? When you power before apex, it's usually for the spectacle and the thrill you can face death once again on simple demand in your RWD. It never is for the speed nor lap times.

In my case, I've to admit it is a dream, but not the reality. In reality I drive in traffic jams, waiting before a slow vehicle at the stop light, passing a school with an idiotic low speel limit, when I can have a go chances are high it's raining or the stretch is just a few hundred yards in length..etc. etc...that is my pitty full reality.

Well, probably the only way out of this discussion is we buy both of them and meet on Francorchamps or the NordSchleiffe and have some fun during the finding out...
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      01-23-2013, 01:53 AM   #53
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Well, I'am pretty certain that the xDrive M135i exhibits very comparable dynamical behaviour to the RWD M135i and demonstrates comparable test results even with AWD and the compromis between lateral and transversal etc...
Yes, I certainly don't expect it to understeer like an Audi. But I have also made modifications to all of my previous RWD BMWs to reduce understeer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
One point I follow, for overpowered powerslides, the RWD is king since a dot of power before apex will make the car tail happy, while the xDrive will just go a bit understeered during identical circumstances. But frankly, is this the way you drive in reality or rather in your dreams? When you power before apex, it's usually for the spectacle and the thrill you can face death once again on simple demand in your RWD. It never is for the speed nor lap times.

In my case, I've to admit it is a dream, but not the reality. In reality I drive in traffic jams, waiting before a slow vehicle at the stop light, passing a school with an idiotic low speel limit, when I can have a go chances are high it's raining or the stretch is just a few hundred yards in length..etc. etc...that is my pitty full reality.
In public traffic, I don't slide the car around very often. It is mostly around slow corners in the winter, when there are no other cars around. I am sometimes surprised by slippery patches in the winter, and then I feel more safe going a little bit sideways than understeering off the road.

Fortunately, I take my car to tracks now and then to explore the limits. Ice racing is coming up soon, with a whole weekend of sideways driving.

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Well, probably the only way out of this discussion is we buy both of them and meet on Francorchamps or the NordSchleiffe and have some fun during the finding out...
You would have to buy both, as they are too expensive in Norway! :-)
Also, I am not consistent enough as a driver to make lap time comparisons between cars on those complicated tracks, at least not with these fast cars.
I prefer to drive low powered cars on the Nordschleife, keeping the speed below 200 km/h.
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      01-23-2013, 06:11 PM   #54
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Some new quotes from autozeitung on the latest test of the 335i xDrive:

"Ob der Allradantrieb den Fahrspaß einschränkt? Nicht der xDrive von BMW."
--> Is xDrive reducing the driving pleasure? Not with this xDrive.


"Wie positiv sich xDrive auf das Fahrverhalten auswirkt, wird aber schon auf trockener Piste deutlich. Sorgte der enorme Schub ab knapp über Leerlaufdrehzahl beim Hecktriebler wegen des nach außen drängenden Hecks für frühzeitige Regeleingriffe des DSC (ESP), so kommentiert der Allradler spontane Leistungsausbrüche erfreulich neutral. Auch mit zusätzlich angetriebenen Vorderrädern bleiben die feine Rückmeldung in der Lenkung und die präzise Umsetzung der Lenkbefehle erhalten."
--> The positive impact of xDrive on the road composure, becomes already clear on none slippery roads. Seen the abundant power, the RWD is already facing difficulties then and the electronics need to contain the tail slipping away. In contrast, the xDrive allows pleasing neutral power access. Also with the Front wheels getting to distribute part of the torque, the steering feedback and precision remain intact.

So this another magazine preferring the xDrive version. Most definitely, those guys are also better drivers than I am, so...

I can only assume that the positive effect on the M135i will even be bigger than on the 335i.
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      01-25-2013, 10:14 AM   #55
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I tested the RWD today. The engine is incredible, I love the steering. The suspension is great, the car is very comfortable but doesn't budge when pushed.

However, there was almost no grip on the rear wheels. At the first red light the wheels kept spinning till third gear and the DSC was working overtime. I've never driven such a powerful car, but I wasn't expecting this. The road wasn't wet, but it was freezing about -3 C. I stopped a little while to check if it still had summer tyres on, but it had run flat sottozero winters.

Driving full throttle was unpleasant with DSC on, and dangerous with DSC off. So I guess I'll be buying the xDrive after all.
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      01-25-2013, 05:44 PM   #56
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I guess you can expect my for your choice!

Current conditions are not common, but wet and slippery are in Belgium. When you have this nuclear fist under the hood in this small car, extra traction will always be your friend! I bet that you'll never regret your choice and you'll often be happy that you ticked the xDrive box.
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      01-25-2013, 05:56 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgguysomg View Post
I tested the RWD today. The engine is incredible, I love the steering. The suspension is great, the car is very comfortable but doesn't budge when pushed.

However, there was almost no grip on the rear wheels. At the first red light the wheels kept spinning till third gear and the DSC was working overtime. I've never driven such a powerful car, but I wasn't expecting this. The road wasn't wet, but it was freezing about -3 C. I stopped a little while to check if it still had summer tyres on, but it had run flat sottozero winters.

Driving full throttle was unpleasant with DSC on, and dangerous with DSC off. So I guess I'll be buying the xDrive after all.
Move to South and forget about winter tires or winter itself. The real issue is your location

With stock PSS that car for sure has a whole different level of traction anytime other than the European winter. Test the rwd again in a few months and you will understand what I mean.

I think there is nothing wrong in having the xdrive anyway, I am sure that it is rear biased.
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      01-25-2013, 06:34 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by omgguysomg View Post
I tested the RWD today.
... there was almost no grip on the rear wheels. At the first red light the wheels kept spinning till third gear and the DSC was working overtime. I've never driven such a powerful car, but I wasn't expecting this
It's winter dude, it's freezing out there ! What do you expect ?

And you can get the DSC working (and wheels spinning when up-shifting) also during summer with summer tires, if you have +320 horsepower. No problem at all...

Did you go on an (empty) parking lot, and play in the snow with the RWD ?
Now that will get you a smile, that you'll never get with AWD.

You can pay for the AWD, or you can pay the same amount to get a Quaife LSD installed on your RWD... that will get you, when loosing grip, from 1-wheel drive to 2-wheel drive, and to a proper sliding/drifting car.

Also, AWD means automatic transmission by default. Did you test a manual or auto ?

Last edited by hwelvaar; 01-25-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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      01-25-2013, 07:26 PM   #59
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I tested the auto and it was sublime. In fact, everything was,except for the slippery rear even on a perfectly dry and open straight road.

About the sliding with awd: it's still very much possible. I've driven a 320d xdrive with 163 HP today, and I even got that to slide around corners. The xdrive is still rear biased, and with the extra power from the M135i I'm sure you can have lots of fun with it. No,you won't put in a 30 second drift, but as a daily driver I think the xdrive is much more suited. In everyday traffic and speeds under 100 kph, you'll even be faster with the xdrive thanks to the grip. And those will be the speeds I'm mostly driving.
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      01-26-2013, 03:42 AM   #60
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I thought they avoided the run flat tires on the M135i.
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      01-26-2013, 03:52 AM   #61
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I thought they avoided the run flat tires on the M135i.
They were fitted on the test car though. Would the runflats make such a difference?
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      01-26-2013, 04:51 AM   #62
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They were fitted on the test car though. Would the runflats make such a difference?
Difficult for me to say, as I have never tested Sottozero RFT. But there are generally huge differences in performance between different types of winter tires. As I mentioned earlier, I drove an M Coupe (321 hp) with winter tires on a cold and rainy day. It was not possible to break traction in first gear in straight line without dumping the clutch. The car did not have traction control. The F20/21 has a longer wheelbase, and thus less weight transfer to the rear tires, but it should still be possible to get a lot of power down.

Maybe the M135i needs a limited slip differential after all?
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      01-26-2013, 08:26 AM   #63
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Thumbs up

Got my xDrive M135i mid November12, actually was the first delivered awd car.

What should I say, it's amazing, traction is superb and in combination with the new ZF 8speed AT simply stunning!!

We picked two M135s, my buddy got a sDrive. He now regretsnot getting the AWD! Especially in bad weatherconditions, needless to say it sticks like glue to the street.

Down side higher fuel consumption, additional 1,5l/100km! I really don't care about that though, safety first.




Regarding RFT, my summer tires are Michelin SuperSport something. The winter tires are Pirelli SottoZero RFT. Difference is massive, RFTs are muuuuuuuch harder. If possible avoid the RFT option for summer tires!!!!!!!
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      01-26-2013, 08:31 AM   #64
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Got my xDrive M135i mid November12, actually was the first delivered awd car.

What should I say, it's amazing, traction is superb and in combination with the new ZF 8speed AT simply stunning!!

We picked two M135s, my buddy got a sDrive. He now regretsnot getting the AWD! Especially in bad weatherconditions, needless to say it sticks like glue to the street.

Down side higher fuel consumption, additional 1,5l/100km! I really don't care about that though, safety first.



Regarding RFT, my summer tires are Michelin SuperSport something. The winter tires are Pirelli SottoZero RFT. Difference is massive, RFTs are muuuuuuuch harder. If possible avoid the RFT option for summer tires!!!!!!!
Glad to hear that, I'll go for the xDrive. Do you feel any difference in the steering between both cars?
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      01-26-2013, 09:03 AM   #65
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Well what has to be mentioned is that the standard layout of power on the xDrive is 40:60! This can change depending on conditions to 100:100! The driving mode can be set to SportPlus which onlocks 30:70 distribution and keeps it that way.

When comparing steering, I really do not recall any noticable differences other than that bite that my xDrive has, basically eating asphalt with the will to accelerate, whereas the sDrive starts to drift in EVERY corner or curve if that right foot isn't carefull.

Both cars have the "sport steering option" stiffening with high speed and easing parking manouvers.
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      01-27-2013, 08:23 AM   #66
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Lol I have been following this thread for some time.

All I can say is each person has its own taste. Yes I agree the AWD version will be more safe and easy to drive in wet and slippery conditions. If that's what you are looking for in a car, than go for it. But maybe if you are concerned about safety so much, don't buy a 320HP car? For the weather in Belgium you certainly dont need an AWD car. As you state yourself you spend most time in traffic jams like most of us.

For me personaly when it's wet and slippery I don't push the car to it's limits at high speeds on public roads. Maybe have some low speed fun at roundabouts when nobody else is around but thats about it. I enjoy driving a lot more in dry and 15+ degrees temperatures. And thats when I enjoy the car the most. FYI I bought the RWD version of this car.

As for the person that did the testdrive... The only winter tires available in the same tiresize as the original wheels are the pirelli sottozero runflat. Run flat tires make the car feel a lot harder. Also out of personal experience I can say they have a lot less grip than regular winter tyres. But to be honest, besides if there is snow I get around nice and safe with the summer tires as well. On snowed roads that's where they make the most difference. Hence I am currently running the car with 225/40/18 michelin pilot alpin a4's winter setup on the original wheels. I have a nice summer set ready with the original tyres

Also with the roads being full of salt and with the low temperatures of the last 2 weeks offcourse grip levels are far less. But if you play around with the throttle and the ESP partially off you can get away pretty quick without being dangerous at all. Comparing with a chipped 2.0l VW Scirocco it even spun the wheels in 4th gear on the highway doing 160. So I dont need to mention how bad grip was in 1st/2nd/3rd gear with this car. Not so with the M135i. It pulls away very quickly from stand still. I guess you just need to dose the gaspedal a bit.

And Koen if you really like the X-Drive version of the car, all I can say is go ahead and buy it. I am sure it's a pretty good ride. Its about personal preference. But no need to convince other people that prefer RWD over AWD that the X-Drive is the better car. Nor won't I come here to say the X-Drive sucks and the RWD owns :-)

To each his own I say. And I am very happy with the RWD version even in the rainy country
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