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      12-15-2012, 10:33 AM   #1
BMWDAD
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6mt vs 8 auto

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quote from Motor Trend on 6mt in 328i

There's no easy way to say this, so here goes: Some days, I wish we'd just gotten the eight-speed automatic in our long-term 328. As a dyed-in-the-wool car enthusiast, I'm not supposed to say that, but it's true. The manual transmission in our 328 is just ok. The shifter itself feels like it's made of rubber and snaps into gear like the door on my microwave latching. It doesn't feel particularly mechanical and it doesn't really like being hurried.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2F8PXudNa

When the M235i arrives in the USA I only have thought about the 6mt as a choice. It seems on this forum most M135i owners have opted for the 8 auto.

.........I will NEVER be able to test drive a stick in the USA, so I will have to rely on the this forum.

1. my 6mt in my 335i is okay, even will a full ssk from bmw.

2. reviews of the 6mt in the 1 coupe and 1M are not an issue.

3. the 8 auto gets very good reviews and I have not read any 6mt reviews.

thanks in advance please discuss
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      12-15-2012, 10:47 AM   #2
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We have the 6mt in a 116i, and I like it. Just like the steering, it is precise without all that much mechanical feel (compared to older cars). The clutch pedal is easy to modulate. I like that I can shift without the cruise control being disabled.
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      12-15-2012, 10:56 AM   #3
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Befor buying my 116i last December i had driven a X3 Auto for the previous four years. I never thought I would be happy with manual transmission but budget restrictions meant I had no choice. I have to say I have found it a joy to live with. Not only is the shift precise and easy on the hand but the clutch is light and progressive. When I change the car in a couple of years I will not be too disapointed if I have to buy another car with manual transmission so long as its as good as this one!
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      12-15-2012, 12:04 PM   #4
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so far so good.................anyone with a M135i?
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      12-15-2012, 05:25 PM   #5
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Not driven a M135i but have driven several manual f20's.

The manual gearbox is ok and just ok. It is springy and rubbery as described and doesn't liked tobe rushed. This is true especially when cold as first and second can be very stiff.
On Right Hand Drive models the clutch pedal is offset which doesnt help.

As for the zf 8 speed auto? I have owned slow shifting slurry conventional autos, automated single clutch manuals, and the latest dual clutch boxes from VW. The zf 8 speed beats them all easily, it's smooth when you want it to be but lightning quick and direct when it needs to be. Manual changes are delivered the instant you ask for them and change speeds are not far off dct quick.

The uk Top Gear team are known for their love of a manual box and for how they hate flappy paddle boxes. But after a few laps of a race circuit they said the auto was "Brilliant". After testing theM135i auto they awarded it sports car of the year.

It's down to personal choice but it is not as clear cut as it was just a few years ago.

Cheers
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      12-15-2012, 06:28 PM   #6
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thank you logiclee.

I personally think BMW is moving to outstanding autos and will phase out the manual.

I have not seen the Top Gear article yet. Can you post a link.

And sports car of the year??? over the boxster S and toyota gt86????

Last edited by BMWDAD; 12-15-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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      12-15-2012, 06:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWDAD View Post
thank you logiclee.
I personally think BMW is moving to outstanding autos and will phase out the manual.
The strange thing is that the ///M-cars seem to become among the first models you can't get with a clutch pedal. It used to be the other way around.
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      12-15-2012, 07:29 PM   #8
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I like the manual in my 125i and in all my other BMWs and don't really get all the flack the manual gearboxes have been getting lately.

But I have to admit that the sport auto is very quick and clever. Also I think it suits the character of the 125i very well, as the 125i is really less of a hot hatch and more of a high speed cruiser than one might think at first.

Not so sure about that with the M135i.
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      12-16-2012, 03:09 AM   #9
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Torque converter gearbox on a 320hp hot hatch sounded odd not long ago.

If I am not mistaken, the manual on M135i is a new Getrag dry sump box, so I hope it will be better than the one on 328 the guy in the article was talking about.

Also, would that be turbo lag instead of poor throttle response that the guy was experiencing? And I don't buy his idea that torque converter will make the situation better. It only makes you feel that the slowness is due to the torque converter, and forgive the throttle/turbo lag.
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      12-16-2012, 04:08 AM   #10
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From what I can see in the ETK, the 116i and 125i have the same Getrag gearbox (with different bell housing), while the M135i has another Getrag model.

Part 23007617492 (Rmfd-6 speed gearbox) was found on the following vehicles:

F10: Details on F10
F10 535i Sedan, Europe

F11: Details on F11
F11 535i Touring, Europe

F20: Details on F20
F20 M135i 5 doors, Europe

F21: Details on F21
F21 M135i 3 doors, Europe

F30: Details on F30
F30 335i Sedan, Europe

Last edited by ovekvam; 12-16-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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      12-16-2012, 04:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendDriver View Post
Torque converter gearbox on a 320hp hot hatch sounded odd not long ago.

If I am not mistaken, the manual on M135i is a new Getrag dry sump box, so I hope it will be better than the one on 328 the guy in the article was talking about.

Also, would that be turbo lag instead of poor throttle response that the guy was experiencing? And I don't buy his idea that torque converter will make the situation better. It only makes you feel that the slowness is due to the torque converter, and forgive the throttle/turbo lag.
The zf box is described as having "Agressive torque convertor lockup" by ZF. It has a torsional torque damper system on the lockup clutch. With 8 ratios 1st is over very quickly and the box can lockup once it's in 2nd.
It feels more like a dual clutch to drive as once moving it's in higher gears and locked up. There is no increasing revs without an increase in speed.
Too be honest with maximum torque available from 1250rpm and with the use of twin scroll turbo, lag isn't a major issue. Certainly nothing like what you get with a Subaru STi or a Mitsubishi Evo.

Cheers
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      12-16-2012, 04:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
The strange thing is that the ///M-cars seem to become among the first models you can't get with a clutch pedal. It used to be the other way around.
When you consider that most of the premium sports cars and gt manufacturers don't sell manuals anymore you can understand the trend.

Ten years ago it would have been unthinkable but gearbox technology has really moved on recently. You can't even buy a manual Ferrari now.

Cheers
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      12-16-2012, 05:09 AM   #13
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Idle rev is slightly below 1k rpm, so torque jump incredibly quick from below 1k to 1,250 rpm and then stay there. It reduced the length of the period of lag, but it becomes more noticeable. So that feels more like slow throttle response than turbo lag. Am I thinking correctly?
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      12-16-2012, 06:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendDriver View Post
Idle rev is slightly below 1k rpm, so torque jump incredibly quick from below 1k to 1,250 rpm and then stay there. It reduced the length of the period of lag, but it becomes more noticeable. So that feels more like slow throttle response than turbo lag. Am I thinking correctly?
The turbo lag is present also at high RPM, at least in our 116i. It is most noticeable when going directly from coasting to full throttle, like you typically do in a hairpin turn. It feels like around one second from you hit the throttle until the engine is producing the required torque. Very annoying compared to a naturally aspirated engine that responds immediately. Makes it difficult to be competetive in autoX, where every tenth of a second counts.
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      12-16-2012, 07:27 AM   #15
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again from Motor Trend

The bigger issue is BMW's electronic throttle pedal. I've disliked it since my first experience with the first-generation Mini Cooper. We've also dinged it in other long-term reviews, like our old 5 Series GT. It feels completely disconnected from the engine, like a video game steering wheel and pedal combo. There's a lag in throttle response when you first tip into the pedal that's very frustrating when trying to slip a clutch. It's even more infuriating when you're trying to rev-match your downshifts smoothly. It makes the engine slow to rev and the relationship between pedal travel and engine RPM is non-linear, making it difficult to get the revs you want. Fortunately, switching the car to "Sport" greatly improves the throttle pedal's response to inputs, but it still feels detached, like you're making throttle requests, not giving commands.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2FDWUcPvi
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      12-16-2012, 07:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWDAD View Post
again from Motor Trend

The bigger issue is BMW's electronic throttle pedal. I've disliked it since my first experience with the first-generation Mini Cooper. We've also dinged it in other long-term reviews, like our old 5 Series GT. It feels completely disconnected from the engine, like a video game steering wheel and pedal combo. There's a lag in throttle response when you first tip into the pedal that's very frustrating when trying to slip a clutch. It's even more infuriating when you're trying to rev-match your downshifts smoothly. It makes the engine slow to rev and the relationship between pedal travel and engine RPM is non-linear, making it difficult to get the revs you want. Fortunately, switching the car to "Sport" greatly improves the throttle pedal's response to inputs, but it still feels detached, like you're making throttle requests, not giving commands.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2FDWUcPvi
These engines don't have throttle valves, like old cars. There is a motor actuating the eccentric shafts in the Valvetronic mechanism. When driving the N13, I think the initial response is pretty quick. The lag you notice is due to the turbo taking time to build up pressure. The flywheel is also a bit too heavy, making the engine rev up (and particularly down) rather slowly. The pedal is not to blame.
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      12-16-2012, 08:17 AM   #17
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The new 8-spd auto tranny is quite impressive. I drove a new 328i with it. The gears shift rapidly and the 2 liter turbo has plenty of torque so I never lacked for power.

Having said that, I then drove a 135i with a manual and as the saying goes, game over! The throws are short and smooth. I also just like working a clutch and selecting my own gears. If I were driving the car in city traffic regularly I might feel different about my choice of transmission, but that's not an issue for me.
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      12-16-2012, 08:59 AM   #18
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The new 8-spd auto tranny is quite impressive. I drove a new 328i with it. The gears shift rapidly and the 2 liter turbo has plenty of torque so I never lacked for power.

Having said that, I then drove a 135i with a manual and as the saying goes, game over! The throws are short and smooth. I also just like working a clutch and selecting my own gears. If I were driving the car in city traffic regularly I might feel different about my choice of transmission, but that's not an issue for me.
THANK YOU I really want a 6MT, and I look forward to the coupe reviews in the USA for the M225i coupe.
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      12-16-2012, 12:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
These engines don't have throttle valves, like old cars. There is a motor actuating the eccentric shafts in the Valvetronic mechanism. When driving the N13, I think the initial response is pretty quick. The lag you notice is due to the turbo taking time to build up pressure. The flywheel is also a bit too heavy, making the engine rev up (and particularly down) rather slowly. The pedal is not to blame.
Although there is some lag it's very limited and certainly one of the least laggy petrol turbo's I've driven.

I still think there is an issue with the pedal mapping. In Eco Pro mode there's absolutely no connection between how much pedal you use and how much response you get.
In Comfort it's better but you still press the pedal an inch or two and then wait for the engine to catch up. Sport mode throttle response feels about right to me but then you also get the Sports Steering, Gear Changes and Chassis response depending on spec.

Cheers
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      12-16-2012, 12:30 PM   #20
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I still think there is an issue with the pedal mapping. In Eco Pro mode there's absolutely no connection between how much pedal you use and how much response you get.
In Comfort it's better but you still press the pedal an inch or two and then wait for the engine to catch up. Sport mode throttle response feels about right to me but then you also get the Sports Steering, Gear Changes and Chassis response depending on spec.

Cheers
Lee
I think it feels quite OK in Comfort Mode. In Sport Mode, it feels like you have wide open throttle at half pedal. The rest of the pedal movement does not add any power. But the engine feels slightly more responsive also. I would have liked to have that mapping with DSC Off.
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      12-16-2012, 01:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I think it feels quite OK in Comfort Mode. In Sport Mode, it feels like you have wide open throttle at half pedal. The rest of the pedal movement does not add any power. But the engine feels slightly more responsive also. I would have liked to have that mapping with DSC Off.
Yes I agree, you should be able to remove DSC and still be in Sport mode.

I find the pedal mapping still feels a bit elastic in comfort, it makes the engine feel more laggy than it is.
Sport mode feels crisper but I agree 100% is about half the pedal travel. That's a trick most small french cars use to make them feel responsive.

On the BMW the accelerator has way more travel than normal with it being floor mounted. My VW has a floor mounted pedal too and to be honest I think I prefer a normal lever mounted pedal.

I'm still not adjusted to it I think is the main reason, my VW Tdi reacts far quicker to pedal input but again I think that is mapped so full power is obtained around 75% travel and the pedal travel is shorter.

Cheers
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      12-21-2012, 04:41 AM   #22
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I've got the 6MT in my 125d and to be honest, its not great. 1st to 2nd when cold is very resistant, and even when warm its not great. Its also not easy to modulate engine speed/revs during this change and it took me quite a few miles to drive around the 'lurch'.

I've found I can minimise the problem by stretching 1st to about 3500 revs and then riding the clutch for a fraction of a second on the change up.

I haven't driven the 8-speed auto, but I suspect it makes a huge contribution to the journalistic reviews comments about 'virtually no lag'. My manual has plenty but I quite like the sensation of boost building rapidly so I don't mind it.
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