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      01-12-2012, 10:38 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
How else can M division cop out?
- "We won't build SUVs" - enter X5 and X6 "M"
- "We won't turbocharge" - enter M5, 1M
- Bespoke engines - 1M uses N54

For hardcore M fans, it's a disappointment. Build quality is dropping, and the ubiquitous nature of the M brand is disappearing.
Might want to look up "ubiquitous" and you'll find that it means "found everywhere". The M brand is ACQUIRING a ubiquitous nature, not losing one.
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      01-12-2012, 10:38 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance View Post
Thats just Audi being behind the curve. Their base engine still is no match for BMW's base engine (207hp 2.0 turbo versus 240hp 2.0 turbo) but then again the VW Group has always traditionally lagged in engine development.

Heck, they are still trying to sell the terrible 2.0 liter NA motor in the new Jettas... yep, the EXACT same 115hp lump that was in their 1996 offerings. That's a 15 year old engine!!! Its why you never see VW or Audi on Ward's 10 best engines. They are lazy when it comes to engine development.
I agree on some points. Especially with BMW's new turbo 4s etc. Audi is starting to slip but they have their strong points too. The 350bhp 5 cylinder in the RS3 is a gem. Let's not forget before the M3 and C63 came around Audi introduced the high-rev V8 to that market with the RS4. I'm also very interested to see how this new 4.0 V8 in the new S6/8 performs.

I still stick to my point that Audi has a better structure with base models/S/RS. It's a clearer structure. BMW is now planning to use the M badge throughout their entire range now from stock model (M-sport) through to true M cars. We guys know our stuff but what is the average person going to know about a M750d?

Edit: It seems I forgot about the C55 AMG lol.
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      01-12-2012, 10:42 AM   #69
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Just trying to figure out how the new line slots into the existing 3 lineup, since it's the bread & butter:

335i = stock suspension, stock engine
335is = tweaked stock suspension, tweaked stock engine
M335i = ?
M3 = M suspension, M engine, M styling & body parts

So what does the M Performance line get? Even more tweaked suspension and engine? Or the same tweaks as the is line, but with M styling?
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      01-12-2012, 10:43 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plien69 View Post
Just trying to figure out how the new line slots into the existing 3 lineup, since it's the bread & butter:

335i = stock suspension, stock engine
335is = tweaked stock suspension, tweaked stock engine
M335i = ?
M3 = M suspension, M engine, M styling & body parts

So what does the M Performance line get? Even more tweaked suspension and engine? Or the same tweaks as the is line, but with M styling?
Detuned M suspension, detuned M engine, toned down M styling & body parts?
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      01-12-2012, 10:44 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
What is this about losing loyal customers if there are other M-fettled cars? If a customer cannot stomach to see an M135i, and thinks less of the ///M3 and can't enjoy it for what it is and always has been, good riddance, he was never a loyal customer then.
No matter what you call it, it's whoring out the M brand (read: watering down). Look here, There is not a single member on this forum who can question my loyalty to BMW, M, and especially the M3. I'm on my 4th M3 and 6th 3-series.

Will I buy another M3, I don't know, it comes down to the car just like it always has. But bullshit like this is a strong indicator that BMW may not be doing what is best for M and solely thinking about milking the M brand. If that's the case, I really don't know what to expect out of the next M3 and these decisions do put more doubt in my head.

When they announced turbos, I said its probably for the best even though we thrive off the high redline. When they considered V6, I thought OK I could live with that even if it's breaking tradition, it's probably for the best. When they announced 4-series as a coupe, I figured, hey, they need to stay competitive. When they put speakers inside the M5 with Pre-recorded engine sounds, I thought well, it's for the older M-driver, won't affect the next M3. When they said M does not need a supercar, BEACAUSE THE M5 is a supercar... I thought whatever, as long as they stay true to M and keep making monster M3s.

Well, there comes a time where certain things shake up your confidence no matter how loyal you are and this is one of those times.

What's wrong with making the "is" or something else the "in-between" they are looking for? People are willing to pay for the badge and say they have an M, so let's whore it out and milk it for what it's worth! That's what's wrong with using "is" or something else.

M-EVERYTHING!
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      01-12-2012, 10:55 AM   #72
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I could be off, but I am pretty sure that the 335is had the N54 engine.

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Originally Posted by e92_m3 View Post
+1!

I didn't know that dropping the N55 engine from the 335is coupe into a 135i

Just because the 135i acquired the N55 engine from the 335is, it does not mean it deserves the "M" name. They should call it a 135is.

Just my $0.02.
I do agree with the 135is moniker. I heard thats what the 135i + Sport package is called in other regions.
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      01-12-2012, 10:58 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Detuned M suspension, detuned M engine, toned down M styling & body parts?
Isn't that what the 335is is for? A bit more performance without jumping into a full fledged M car? So you want a M but at the same time you don't want one? I think the is line makes a lot of sense because it isn't just body and badge tweak. Instead of making a new line, why not extend the M-Sport or is line with an option to tweak performance instead of having a M Performance line?

Personally, I don't care because what I drive is for me anyway and it's not like we BMW drivers don't already have the douche label slapped on us. If BMW doing what they're doing makes us look like even bigger douches, so be it. Hah...
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      01-12-2012, 11:08 AM   #74
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Where in the announcement did BMW say anything about reducing the performance or production of its traditional ///M models? If anything, producing a somewhat less cutting edge performance range will allow even greater differentiation and "purity" for the "true" ///M cars - less compromise, less need to cater to the playboy executive who only drives an M car around city streets.

Put it this way, do you buy the badge or the car? I think BMW knows exactly what ///M means to the company and has no intention of dissipating the goodwill or ethic of ///M. To do so would defeat the primary objective which is to sell more cars!

Cries of devotion to the ///M moniker per se (rather than the vehicle) sound somewhat hollow.
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      01-12-2012, 11:15 AM   #75
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If you look how the automotive landscape has changed and especially from BMW's point of view. The best selling 1er , 3er and 5er are Diesels , 7 and the X models again the best sellers are Diesels in europe.

BMW M Will not be the last manufacturer to do this , expect AMG and Audi RS To follow, Porsche probably too.

Performance diesel is a good place to start because other than Alpina no one has really moved to introduce such a Powerful diesel apart from the Audi Q7 V12 which like all Audi's had the power but not the dynamic ability to match. Even that was limited production.

X6M550d is thinking along those lines Performance with the driving ability and excellent efficiency as an "Alternative" Not many can go for the X6M due to economic or tax reasons - X6 M550d is the logical step for those that want high performance with greater efficiency.

M550d xDrive is the ultimate diesel Sedan and it answers the questions the M5 could not answer - including the Diesel M and xDrive questions. A best description of the M550d xDrive is that it is completely understated to what it is.

M135i takes the inspiration from the previous 135i M-Sport and adds the unique and specific aerodynamic packet , although this time it is introduced as a hatch. M135i is the substitute until the next generation full blooded M appears in the next three years.
The chassis is equipped to handle the power after being given a severe going over by M engineers which will result in a very sportier car compared to the current 1er models.
M135i will also appear in both Coupe and Cabrio models in 2013, which will inherit M235i. The M235i Coupe and Cabrio will be the first models to the US under M Performance Automobiles.

The Trio Axis of (Alpine White M Power) Will be previewed in February prior to a World Premiere at the Geneva Show in March.
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      01-12-2012, 11:16 AM   #76
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i would have rather them add the "s" to the cars and not a prefix of 'm'. leave the m badge to the cars they already have, dump the x5m/x6m badges and make the 1seriesm just a 135is
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      01-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #77
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I have to say that many of you guys are really funny, trully. I never got the point of why anyone else cares about what any one else drives or how many people drive the "same" thing.

BMW is a car company in business to make money and produce fine vehicles. That will still continue tomorrow with this announcement. Why anyone cares if they add styling cues and additional performance from their M subdivision is beyond me. It really is nonsense and BMW really could not care less if it loses a few customers that cant take it that their neighbor may have another car with an M on it somewhere. Please! Whoring out the brand happened long ago, but the brand has not only survived but flourished. It is the mind set of certain individuals, as demonstrated in different parts of this entire thread that makes me dislike Ms because of the people that drive them and think they are somewhat priviledged.

I drive the S85 ///M6, the pinnacle of BMW and M success, and probably the last trully hardcore offering to come out of M, imho. But you know what, who cares at the end of the day? I have met many people who drive the beast, along with M5 owners and I never thought, damn, theres too many of us to enjoy my exclusivity to make me feel better about myself because I have something that almost no one else has. But thats exactly the envy that I hear across this thread, envy that someone else has something similar to what you have, and somehow that makes your purchase less special??? This is the reason many across the world look down on us in the US, because we talk silly like spoiled children that have to have the one and only. Well I hate to tell ya, but BMWs are a dime a dozen so to speak vs trully exclusive cars.

In europe everyone appreciates any bmw regardless of the badge because they know what goes into all of them the same, the same dna so to speak. So when some on this side of the world make silly statements about brand dilution because of a shared letter, I have to laugh hard to myself because its like watching children play.

Get over it, if you want exclusivity, but a Ferrari, not an M3 or an M anything, bmw produces as many cars as they can sell, there is no exclusivity except in ones mind.

However, Id say to just appreciate the position you may be in if you can go for the M3 for ex or any bmw for that matter, because if you arent buying the car as a poseur for status, then you wont care if your neighbor is driving one too.

In terms of the M announcement, I think its great and about time, who wants to deal with aftermarket tuners and body kits when you can order it right from BMW the way they know some of us that are more sports oriented want the cars and not deal with all the tuner hassels. You want a little more performance, why NOT get it stright from the factory, it only makes 100% sense and is a true win-win, the customer gets what they want, and BMW makes addition revenue to fund more cars.

And while some may say that the M of today and the recent past are daily drivers with the perfect balance, well thats not really true as we all know.
In the US, where the speed limit in every part of the country is well below 100mph, there is technically no reason to have a vehicle that can exceed that limit, if you know what I mean. Im not saying to limit it, but its a point that should be well understood. So if BMW can now make a car thats very sporty, with a bit more power and driving dynamics focused than the "normal" car, and has the great design features that M is known for, thats a big win for everyone.
No one in the US needs 500+hp for a daily drive, yes its more fun than should be legal to drive the S85 every day, but in actuality, I dont use half the power most of the time, and the same is true for the M5 or even the M3, and possibly even the funny named 1 series with the M on the trunk which is a very focused track ready car.
We're just spoiled here in the US and thats all this bickering by some really comes down to.
Just appreciate what you have yourself, and dont worry if I have the same thing or something that you percieve makes your car any less special, because thats just silly.
I for one cant wait to see what the offerings turn out to be, im sure my next car will be one of these new Ms
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      01-12-2012, 11:28 AM   #78
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Any time there are new car offerings I think its great for the consumer, more choices to get the car you exactly want. So yay for us.

Only one caveat: As long as there is no M badge above the R rear tail light on these new models (the only place I feel an M badge belongs btw...) then I am okay with it. Call me a purist.

But either way, probably won't stop me from taking a long and hard look at the new m3/m4 once I have my car paid off in 3 years.
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      01-12-2012, 11:32 AM   #79
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It's sort of insulting to say the hardcore M fans are "funny". I grew up wanting an M3 as soon as I was interested in cars.. so I got familiar with M philosophy. Now that I do finally own M cars, having their philosophy change so drastically is negatively affecting my interest in the vehicles. I know they will make more money this way, but to say we are "funny" for caring about it is a little short sighted on an M3 enthusiast forum.
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      01-12-2012, 11:32 AM   #80
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Yes, even though M Performance goes further by having both petrol and diesel models.
Good point, south. Although I will not be surprised to see Audi respond in time with their own performance diesels. As a side note, I wish BMW still had a V8 diesel like Audi and Mercedes do (though for how long, I don't know). A V8 diesel performance model would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by ferrari6891 View Post
The funny thing is, the regular 335 was putting up S4 numbers, so I don't understand where this new M Performance slots in
Well, then it seems the BMW Performance models will perhaps perform better than the competition.

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Originally Posted by plien69 View Post
Just trying to figure out how the new line slots into the existing 3 lineup, since it's the bread & butter:

335i = stock suspension, stock engine
335is = tweaked stock suspension, tweaked stock engine
M335i = ?
M3 = M suspension, M engine, M styling & body parts

So what does the M Performance line get? Even more tweaked suspension and engine? Or the same tweaks as the is line, but with M styling?
I would guess that once the E92 goes away and the 335is is discontinued, BMW will create a F32 M440i (or something similar) to replace it.
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      01-12-2012, 11:39 AM   #81
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I agree. I don't see any reason to water down the M brand name. It is either a M or it isn't. You can drive a balls out 335is or whatever, but it isn't a M.
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      01-12-2012, 11:40 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Rich@GTBPerformance View Post
Thats just Audi being behind the curve. Their base engine still is no match for BMW's base engine (207hp 2.0 turbo versus 240hp 2.0 turbo) but then again the VW Group has always traditionally lagged in engine development.
I don't agree that Audi is behind BMW (or anyone else) from a technological perspective. If you look across their engine lineup, they have something that will go up against pretty much every BMW engine.

The fact that they choose not to offer all of these engines in all products or markets where they could is based upon their marketing approach and not lack of technical know how. I am sure they would offer the higher output 2.0 TFSI engines in a greater number of their products if they determined that the market was there and it would increases profits. I will say that I would agree with those who wish they would do just that.
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      01-12-2012, 11:40 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
It's sort of insulting to say the hardcore M fans are "funny". I grew up wanting an M3 as soon as I was interested in cars.. so I got familiar with M philosophy. Now that I do finally own M cars, having their philosophy change so drastically is negatively affecting my interest in the vehicles. I know they will make more money this way, but to say we are "funny" for caring about it is a little short sighted on an M3 enthusiast forum.
Its not insulting at all unless one is posing, I grew up the same way loving the brand and the cars, and have owned them for my past 20+ years on the road. Its a fact, when you are envious of someone else, its comical. If it affects you, find another brand, but theres nothing that you or I can do to change this. I was a hater when M announced trucks and turbos and I wont be buying the new M6 due to this change in engine philosophy, but its not the case that I wont by another BMW, I just know now that the company has a different focus and I dont have to have the M to enjoy my ride. Time marches on, you either accept it or it pass you by, but it wont change. Just appreciate what you have and dont worry that I have something as nice, or nicer, it doesnt affect your life, and that my only point. There is no exclusivity in these cars, just in ones mind.
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      01-12-2012, 11:41 AM   #84
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M Performance = old Sport Package

Maybe I misinterpreted the press release....but while I was reading it, all I could think of was the following:

-When I drove the newest 5 series (sport package), it felt more Lexus than BMW in its driving dynamics. Nice aesthetics, but BMW traditionalists will not like the steering feel or lack of sensation of speed. I'll pass.

-I haven't driven the new M5, but from what I've read (and from feedback from a BMWNA friend) - they fixed all that.

Seems like BMW is creating a more concrete separation between product lines:
-Standard cars: for Lexus, Cadillac, and MB traditionalists.
-M Performance line: those who want real BMW dynamics, but can't afford or don't want the edge of an M.
-Real M cars: (somewhat) for M loyalists.

I'm an M guy - I currently have an E46 ZCP, and my all time favorite motor is the s62 (E39 M5). I've driven plenty of the newer stuff, and owned an M6 for a few months, but just couldn't get away from the late 90s- early 2000 cars. I like their NA motors, reduced weight, and the aesthetic philosophy.

The new 5 and 6 series are being more geared towards comfort. So if you want a big BMW with true BMW capabilities, you need the //M. That said, I can't deny the rush of a sport package 135i, 335i. The torque and handling is great...these cars are so good to drive, that the M cars are really for people who want M cars. Now they want to know how far you're willing to //M - do you want just the aesthetic and handling, or are you really after that motor?

Although the execution is flawed (they should keep an M badge for the all-out //M), I think the philosophy behind the move could be sound (for BMW). The catch I'm expecting is that BMW will use the move to justify another price hike for the true M cars (good for BMW, bad for us).

Thoughts?
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      01-12-2012, 11:41 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I think this sucks and waters down the M brand. Every BMW is going to have an M badge on it. The cars we laughed at which slapped an M before the numeric designation like M750iL are coming true.

Unless this opens room for the real M cars to go balls to the wall and break away from the luxury market grip to become more hardcore sports cars, then I can't see ANY good coming from this to M enthusiasts or the M brand. M ALL THE THINGS!
True, but it does grant a bit more "stealth" the the true ///M cars. I don't mind people THINKING that I have a slightly upgraded 3, so long as I'm driving the M3.
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      01-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #86
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M630

I'm sure for some it's all about the badge but I know for others, especially the enthusiasts here, it goes beyond that. Those who follow BMW and M, it's about the history and they don't believe it should be messed with. You can say it's just a badge but you can't ignore the fact that, to the car community, the M has meaning. It's supposed to represent the halo car. So when you introduce the M Performance line, it's almost a slap in the face, not because you might see M badges everywhere, but instead it's a slap to the history of what M stands for. I just don't see why they would need to have this new line when they had a another model that worked and made sense.

That's just me.
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      01-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #87
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I still stick to my point that Audi has a better structure with base models/S/RS. It's a clearer structure. BMW is now planning to use the M badge throughout their entire range now from stock model (M-sport) through to true M cars. We guys know our stuff but what is the average person going to know about a M750d?
As I said above, Audi also has S Line which could be said to dilute the S brand in the same way that MSport could be argued to dilute the M brand.

I somewhat agree what the Audi approach of reserving the RS brand for only top notch offerings is a more pure solution than BMW's "M's for everyone". However, in the end, BMW's strategy will allow them to have a more unified marketing strategy, and probably be able to reach more customers at a low cost. IMHO.
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      01-12-2012, 11:52 AM   #88
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I'm not a fan of this move at all. It is indeed watering down the M brand. You lose the exclusivity of driving an M car.
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