[mdt]

Is it just that the electronic stability program trigger is less sensitive?

Has anyone done any track days with it on and/or off? I'm curious as to how interventionist both settings are. I haven't been prepared to drive the car on the road with Sports+ on for any length of time, but others may have a different approach.

TIA.

[creepy coupe]

Sport + reduces the amount of nanny aids the car deploys.

[westphone]

Yup, less sensitive electronic stability P (ESP)
SPORT: Cuts power when any slip is detected
SPORT+: Cuts in a little later ("feels" fraction of a second)
Long press traction button ESP OFF comes on, in this mode ESP does not cut in at all, but the throttle is set to COMFORT.

I have few track time, and there are many more than capable people to answer your question with regards to track days. When I am in the mountains I have ESP OFF, however in the rain I have in SPORT+ Hope this helps.

[Bradbury]

As it is today, a short press on the DTC-button while in Sport, and it's the same as if you put it in Sport+. Right?

I'm thinking Sport+ should be more drastic. If you put it in Sport+, you should really mean it! The AC should automatically be shut off in S+. As should the radio. The windows and sunroof should close. Maybe even more stuff should happen when you switch to S+...?

[ovekvam]

I have tried the Sport and Sport+ settings on the track (summer and winter), but lost a lot of speed and control because of the stability control. Only useful setting for me for sporty driving is DSC Off. Sport+ would probably be suitable for rookies.

Sport+ is however useful for road driving on snow, as it allows some wheelspin that enables the tires to dig into the snow and find some traction.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by Bradbury

As it is today, a short press on the DTC-button while in Sport, and it's the same as if you put it in Sport+. Right?

Not the same. With Sport+, you have Sport mapping of your engine, and with DTC, you get Comfort mapping.

[mdt]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

I have tried the Sport and Sport+ settings on the track (summer and winter), but lost a lot of speed and control because of the stability control. Only useful setting for me for sporty driving is DSC Off. Sport+ would probably be suitable for rookies.

That's a shame. I drove a 991 at Phillip Island with PASM on, which is the standard stability control. I knew ESP was on because it made me feel like a driving legend--that is, to the extent that it cut power or braked individual wheels, it seemed to only make me go faster.

It sounds that the M35i ESP is set to a far lower level, which is a bit disappointing, particularly if it encourages people to want to turn it off altogether, which brings an entirely new set of risks.

With Porsche driving days, you're covered by insurance, unless you turn the PASM off. If you do that and crash, you'll be writing out a cheque. That's the way ESP should be IMO. The default setting for track driving.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by mdt

It sounds that the M35i ESP is set to a far lower level, which is a bit disappointing, particularly if it encourages people to want to turn it off altogether, which brings an entirely new set of risks.

I prefer to do the car control myself, and would probably switch it off in all cars when driving on a track. It depends on you car control skills and driving style. I like to push the car beyond the limits of its grip, and want it to slide around quite a bit in the corners. Stability control systems will always interfere when you do that.

Particularly for winter driving on tracks on frozen lakes, I want the car to go sideways more or less all the time, so my goal is very different from the DSC, which wants to keep the sliding to a minimum.

If you have a smooth driving style trying to stick to static friction, I guess you would hardly notice the driving aids in Sport+ mode.

[westphone]

Oh yeah there was a thread discussing having DSC OFF and sports mapping to everything at the same time, particularly to the throttle response. Well the computer guy here worked on it for a bit, but apparently it "conflicts with something," and it's not just tick boxes. Just passing the information along.

[mdt]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

Particularly for winter driving on tracks on frozen lakes, I want the car to go sideways more or less all the time, so my goal is very different from the DSC, which wants to keep the sliding to a minimum.

If you have a smooth driving style trying to stick to static friction, I guess you would hardly notice the driving aids in Sport+ mode.

Sure, ice driving is a different thing. I did Camp4 with Porsche in Finland and the first thing we had to do was turn PASM off.

The second part of your post is encouraging though, so if you're smooth enough, it might not trouble you too much.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by mdt

The second part of your post is encouraging though, so if you're smooth enough, it might not trouble you too much.

My experience is that the tire choice is rather important as well. Those who prefer to drive the car as it was on rails, should go for sticky tires with good steering response. That means rather wide low profile tires with large and stable tread blocks (preferably R-compounds). With such a setup, you are not likely to slide much, and the driving aids will not interfere until you get in trouble.

For those (like me) who prefer to do their own car control, and slide the car around a bit, it is better to go for narrower high profile tires with more flexible tread. That enables a smooth and predictable breakaway. The DTC/DSC does however not like that kind of driving, and will frequently correct you. Those tires will provide their best grip at quite large slip angles, and they will not be allowed, at least not for long. Fortunately we have DSC Off.

The Toyota GT86 is an example of a car set up from the factory with the latter kind of tires, the same type used on the Prius. That makes it safe and easy to drift without driving aids enabled. It also makes the car slower and more fun to drive.

[mdt]

I hadn't thought of that distinction. Nice one.

[ttimbo]

I haven't tried the M135 on a track yet, but in my experience with previous cars, the very worst sort of intervention is the traction control that cuts power, preventing you from getting power out of a corner. I'm not sure that will be too much of an issue, given the M135 already has good power. But I'll have to find out

[ovekvam]

In Sport+, there is almost no traction control, only stability control. As long as the car doesn't step sideways, you are allowed to put a lot of power down, and spinning the wheels. I am not sure if the fake differential brake system is working in Sport+. It certainly does in DSC Off.

In regular Sport mode, the traction control will cut in early, and deny you from getting wheelspin by cutting the throttle. Seems to me like the fake differential brake is not active in Sport mode.

[mdt]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

In Sport+, there is almost no traction control, only stability control. As long as the car doesn't step sideways, you are allowed to put a lot of power down, and spinning the wheels. I am not sure if the fake differential brake system is working in Sport+. It certainly does in DSC Off.

In regular Sport mode, the traction control will cut in early, and deny you from getting wheelspin by cutting the throttle. Seems to me like the fake differential brake is not active in Sport mode.

In that case, there's little argument for running the car in anything other than Sports+ at the track.

Does Sports+ do anything over and above Sports in relation to chassis settings and throttle response?

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by mdt

In that case, there's little argument for running the car in anything other than Sports+ at the track.

Well, I still strongly prefer DSC Off.

Originally Posted by mdt

Does Sports+ do anything over and above Sports in relation to chassis settings and throttle response?

No, it doesn't.

[westphone]

Just wondering do you find ESC OFF with a COMFORT mode throttle easier to control the throttle, or would you prefer ESC OFF with SPORT throttle setting, as the SPORT throttle setting is more abrupt but quicker with the power delivery? Let's say if we have the choice in ESC OFF mode.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by westphone

Just wondering do you find ESC OFF with a COMFORT mode throttle easier to control the throttle, or would you prefer ESC OFF with SPORT throttle setting, as the SPORT throttle setting is more abrupt but quicker with the power delivery? Let's say if we have the choice in ESC OFF mode.

In the 116i, I would prefer the Sport mapping, but maybe not with the M135i.

[SJP013]

Hi All

I've had my M135i for a few weeks now and have had a few spirited drives (for those in sydney, heres a couple of recommended… North: http://goo.gl/maps/71iHD South: http://goo.gl/maps/pBxjz).

Over this relatively short period, I've had a good play with Sport, Sport+, and DSC OFF modes. The drives have combined long sweeping fast roads, tight twisty stuff, climbs, dips, hairpins etc.

After this, I'm firmly of the opinion that there needs to be a "Sport++" mode. Below is a summary of what the settings have translated to in the real world so far.

Sport:
Settings: Traction control ON, Adaptive suspension ON, DSC ON.
Good overall with the more aggressive steering, throttle and drivetrain setting. But traction control very limiting especially at the apex on average Sydney roads + torque of the m. It's a good safe setting and much more fun that Comfort mode but starts to get really frustrating trying to get the power down out of tight corners. I normally switch this one all the time for 'normal' driving.

Sport+:
Settings: Traction control OFF, Adaptive suspension ON, reduced DSC.
This is definitely most fun and you need to be in sport+ to enjoy the car on the climbs and tight twisty stuff. Car is much more direct and 'feels' more sporty.
A good balance between letting the wheels spin and getting the power down HOWEVER the DSC I believe still comes in too early when you start getting a little attitude in the rear. They obviously bring it in as a pure safety precaution however in twisty climbs where you're have hard acceleration out of tight hairpins, you expect a little tail happy moments, but the DSC rains down to ruin the parade, and when you need power most, you don't have it.

So the next test was turning DSC off totally…..

DSC OFF:
So being in sport+, and turning DSC off, you would expect it to stay in sport +, just remove the DSC, but NO – you end up back with Comfort settings – slow steering, comfort throttle, and adaptive suspension off! Having said that, you can now truly feel the power delivery and grip in the rear without electronic intervention – and drive the car like 'the old days'. But with the suspension, throttle and steering maps in comfort – it's just not ideal.

So I've switching back and forth between sport+ and DSC off… each time I switched between them, it confirmed to me that the car really needs a "sport++" mode (and an LSD).

My suggestion for sport++ is: adaptive ON, NO DSC, NO traction.

SO – Does anyone know if any of the tuners have had success with developing an additional driving mode as per the above? OR adjusting sport+ to include fully removed DSC?

Thanks and cheers to all.

Scott
SJP013 – Sydney, Australia.

[Bradbury]

Is it like this on the F10 M5 as well? I would thing that if any cars had the combination of Sport throttle, Sport steering and DSC off, it would be the Fxx pure M-cars. If it's the same in the M5 and the upcoming M4/3, then I would very much like to know why it is like this. There must be a good reason. Or maybe not...

[ovekvam]

So, what du you M135i owners think about the fake differential brake feature in Sport+? Is it enabled or not?
It is difficult to tell with a 116i.

[johnnydad]

Originally Posted by SJP013

Hi All

I've had my M135i for a few weeks now and have had a few spirited drives (for those in sydney, heres a couple of recommended… North: http://goo.gl/maps/71iHD South: http://goo.gl/maps/pBxjz).

Over this relatively short period, I've had a good play with Sport, Sport+, and DSC OFF modes. The drives have combined long sweeping fast roads, tight twisty stuff, climbs, dips, hairpins etc.

After this, I'm firmly of the opinion that there needs to be a "Sport++" mode. Below is a summary of what the settings have translated to in the real world so far.

Sport:
Settings: Traction control ON, Adaptive suspension ON, DSC ON.
Good overall with the more aggressive steering, throttle and drivetrain setting. But traction control very limiting especially at the apex on average Sydney roads + torque of the m. It's a good safe setting and much more fun that Comfort mode but starts to get really frustrating trying to get the power down out of tight corners. I normally switch this one all the time for 'normal' driving.

Sport+:
Settings: Traction control OFF, Adaptive suspension ON, reduced DSC.
This is definitely most fun and you need to be in sport+ to enjoy the car on the climbs and tight twisty stuff. Car is much more direct and 'feels' more sporty.
A good balance between letting the wheels spin and getting the power down HOWEVER the DSC I believe still comes in too early when you start getting a little attitude in the rear. They obviously bring it in as a pure safety precaution however in twisty climbs where you're have hard acceleration out of tight hairpins, you expect a little tail happy moments, but the DSC rains down to ruin the parade, and when you need power most, you don't have it.

So the next test was turning DSC off totally…..

DSC OFF:
So being in sport+, and turning DSC off, you would expect it to stay in sport +, just remove the DSC, but NO – you end up back with Comfort settings – slow steering, comfort throttle, and adaptive suspension off! Having said that, you can now truly feel the power delivery and grip in the rear without electronic intervention – and drive the car like 'the old days'. But with the suspension, throttle and steering maps in comfort – it's just not ideal.

So I've switching back and forth between sport+ and DSC off… each time I switched between them, it confirmed to me that the car really needs a "sport++" mode (and an LSD).

My suggestion for sport++ is: adaptive ON, NO DSC, NO traction.

SO – Does anyone know if any of the tuners have had success with developing an additional driving mode as per the above? OR adjusting sport+ to include fully removed DSC?

Thanks and cheers to all.

Scott
SJP013 – Sydney, Australia.

I haven't honestly done very much driving at all in All Off mode so can't usefully comment, but seeing your comments on the other aspects it's like you've read my mind. And driven the same roads

I've found you have to be very subtle with the right foot even in Sport+ to get nice, smooth slip angles and avoid the remnant of DSC kicking in. I suspect that fitting a Quaife would allow enough extension of this for normal road driving where I'd prefer to leave some smarts on (for insurance purposes even) but I would like to try a motorkhana or track day eventually and the sharper throttle and Adaptive would be pretty useful.