[Doctor///M]

Keep buying manuals folks!!!

[Law]

Originally Posted by Doctor///M

Keep buying manuals folks!!!

Vote with your wallet, as they say

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by Law

will build manual transmissions as long as people buy them

We're doomed... I applaud BMW for trying as long as it has and I will continue to buy cars with a MT for as long as I can (and then probably will buy used cars with MT), but the demand will continue to shrink. And it looks like once the demand is down to approximately 7%, the manual will be gone.

In the latest Roundel, a BMW exec who writes a column for the magazine basically implored anyone who cares about MTs to actually ORDER them, not just appreciate the fact that the MT is available. (He was grousing about a guy who was telling him how much he loved that BMW offered a MT in the F8X...but then said he bought the DCT so his wife could drive it.)

Save the Manuals.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Law

The answer to your question has been answered already.
As long as there is enough demand, it will be supplied.
Van Meel himself said that "in the M5 and M6 it [demand for manual trans.] went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever."

Perhaps some data can help illustrate what is meant by "demand".
For the E60 M5, 6MT was offered exclusively for N.America.
Total # E60 M5 sold in NA: 9491
Total # 6MT: 1364
Percentage of MT: 14%
BMW carried over the 6MT option for the F10 M5, also exclusively N.America
Total # F10 M5 sold in NA: 8088
Total # 6MT: 577
Percentage of MT: 7%

Even with the low [relative to M3] manual take-rate of 14% on the E60 M5, BMW was still able to make a business case for the MT in the next gen. (F10 M5).
But with the F10 what we see is a 50% decline in demand down to 7% and now the MT has been eliminated from the M5.
At that point, the manual trans. offering could no longer be justified.

Not really, they'll just stop offering manuals at that point (like what they did with the E65 7-series, F10 550i 2014MY+, etc.).

OK: BMW decided not to offer a manual in the next-gen M5 -- a big, six-figure sedan in which a manual really doesn't make a whole ton of sense anyway.

Yet the article in the OP claims that manuals will still be available on certain M cars. How would BMW justify the cost of such a promise if, say, less than 7% of M2 buyers -- a car that, along with the M3, that lends itself much more to working well with a manual -- eventually don't tick that manual box? How about less than 7% of next-gen Z5 buyers?

All I'm saying is that one way to pass the extra cost of development on is to charge the customer for the manual-transmission option. As you know, that was done for many years with autos largely because of two things: they were more expensive because they were more complex, and they were not popular in places outside the U.S.

Since manuals are disappearing globally, the development cost will inevitably go up because economies of scale dictate it. Why should every single buyer of a next-gen M3 pay for all the development and production cost of a manual transmission for it? Cover at least part of that cost with a charge for the option, and it becomes possible for longer.

[tc328]

Buy that man a beer

[Richbot]

577 manual f10 M5's = approximately $50,000,000 in gross revenue

That's significantly more than zero

What they mean is they don't care if some customers want it, it's not profitable to offer it. They just plopped the same ZF box they've been using forever in the f10 and development costs I'm sure we're more than zero but come on. They just don't want to. It adds constraints to interior design, development pace, etc. they don't want to. And they shouldn't want to because most modern buyers couldn't give two shits.

But Bmw continues to fail to differentiate itself in the marketplace with its new cars. I have certainly purchased my last new BMW.

Also, No fwd m cars doesn't mean no awd GLA style 2-series active tourer M car. Lots of wiggle room there.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

A decade ago BMW promised it would never go to turbocharging.

Where's my salt?

Which means there is really no use in the manufacturer even attempting to make a guarantee.

Manufacturers chose to utilize turbocharging in a response to increased emissions restrictions. It wasn't as if they simply chose to implement turbos. Their hand was forced.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

BMW M was forced to go turbocharging or get left in the dust by its competitors. There is only so much horsepower/torque you can extract out of a NA motor and with tighter emissions regulations BMW like other companies had no choice.

If BMW stuck with NA then the same people complaining about turbocharging will complain "why does my M car have no torque?"

Alan

Actually that's not the real reason turbocharging has come across the lineup but it is true for some models.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

OK: BMW decided not to offer a manual in the next-gen M5 -- a big, six-figure sedan in which a manual really doesn't make a whole ton of sense anyway.

Yet the article in the OP claims that manuals will still be available on certain M cars. How would BMW justify the cost of such a promise if, say, less than 7% of M2 buyers -- a car that, along with the M3, that lends itself much more to working well with a manual -- eventually don't tick that manual box? How about less than 7% of next-gen Z5 buyers?

All I'm saying is that one way to pass the extra cost of development on is to charge the customer for the manual-transmission option. As you know, that was done for many years with autos largely because of two things: they were more expensive because they were more complex, and they were not popular in places outside the U.S.

Since manuals are disappearing globally, the development cost will inevitably go up because economies of scale dictate it. Why should every single buyer of a next-gen M3 pay for all the development and production cost of a manual transmission for it? Cover at least part of that cost with a charge for the option, and it becomes possible for longer.

Makes sense.
But at that point, it makes much more sense (for BMW) to just axe the manual transmission and offer strictly 2-pedals.
Even for cars like the M2 and M3, if the demand falls to <7%, it's a safe bet to assume that BMW is just going to get rid of the option altogether.

BMW isn't going to cater to the <7% of buyers. Charging the <7% a premium might or might not cover the costs of making an MT for such a tiny market. It's too risky. If demand has already shown a trend of decline and currently sits at <7%, who's to say it won't drop to 5%? 3%?

This is why voting with your wallet is more important now than ever. Once the decision is made [by BMW] to axe the manual trans., there's almost no turning back.

[raisingAnarchy]

Ahh of course. Classic M car values like adding electrification and AWD to increase straight line acceleration and disconnect the driver more completely from the experience.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Law

Makes sense.
But at that point, it makes much more sense to just axe the manual transmission and offer strictly 2-pedals.
Even for cars like the M2 and M3, if the demand falls to <7%, it's a safe bet to assume that BMW is just going to get rid of the option altogether.

BMW isn't going to cater to the <7% of buyers. Charging the <7% a premium might or might not cover the costs of making an MT for such a tiny market. It's too risky. If demand has already shown a trend of decline and currently sits at <7%, who's to say it won't drop to 5%? 3%?

I'm right there with you. (Disclosure: I play devil's advocate for a living. )

I, too, don't think BMW will do it -- and that's why I raised the initial question in this thread. As other posters have noted, producing something for branding perception (i.e., M cars with manuals) may outweigh the cost ineffectiveness for a time. But there's plainly a tipping point where even that won't be deemed cost effective for the brand -- and as watered down as M Division is becoming, retaining manuals as an option, in any form and at any cost, won't be done solely by principle. Bean counters hate principles!

[Law]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I'm right there with you. (Disclosure: I play devil's advocate for a living. )

I, too, don't think BMW will do it -- and that's why I raised the initial question in this thread. As other posters have noted, producing something for branding perception (i.e., M cars with manuals) may outweigh the cost ineffectiveness for a time. But there's plainly a tipping point where even that won't be deemed cost effective for the brand -- and as watered down as M Division is becoming, retaining manuals as an option, in any form and at any cost, won't be done solely by principle. Bean counters hate principles!

Well, you offer interesting alternatives that, if implemented by BMW, might be able to see the manual trans be offered in more cars.

As much as many of us wish they would retain manuals as a principle of being the "Ultimate Driving Machine", the bean counters run the show now.

I will applaud BMW though, for still offering MT, even if the selection is getting smaller.
Its competitors gave up a long time ago, so at least BMW gives us the chance to "vote"

[Jono2112]

My big question is: will m still be ///M??? Will m sport even be a little ///M at all? Will a real m be really an ///M??? Or will it be a badge that you can either get on eBay for $9.97, or at your BMW dealer for $3,000 to $13,000 for the ///M badge before three numbers, or $12,000 to $24,000 for the ///M badge with only one number after it (or an X followed by one number before it)?
While fwd, rwd, or awd and na or turbo; and petrol, diesel, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, or all electric; and mt, auto, or dct; and dsc, dtc, or nanny-less; and lane assist, brake assist, autonomous driving, or old fashioned hands on the wheel; and etc,. etc., etc..., all play their role in making a car a baby carriage, a people hauler, a sporty car, a luxury car, a sports car, or a track weapon, WHAT MAKES IT AN ///M? I don't know an easy answer, but whatever it is, that is what makes the difference and makes me pick the BMW. And only through a long test drive, or renting a car, or borrowing a friends car, or doing a weekend at the ///M school can you get stung by the ///M and fall in love and pay the premium for that ///M-ness. Whatever that ///M feeling means to you. Maybe ///M will make the first fwd, electric, automatic transmission, self driving car that is the ultimate driving machine. However, will any ///M enthusiasts ever test drive it? That is the rub for BMW and ///M.
However Audi/VW have left the door open by concentrating on hp, 0-60, and top speed, while even their RS cars handle like crap!!! Not only have they never matched BMW x drive, but have they ever even driven a wrx??? Why so much understeer and punishing stiffness?? This is a huge opportunity for BMW and you can't blame them for taking it. But will they alienate the ///M fans?
For me, I want rwd, gas, turbo if I must, manual transmission, and all the nannies (especially the auto rev matching) should have an off switch. I will pay $1,000-$2,000 for the manual transmission. And please, put a temp and oil pressure gauge in ALL cars with any M on it!!! If BMW and ///M screw up too much, I'm going back to Porsche, if Porsche learns anything about customer demand for third peddles and manual transmissions.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Ummmmm yea.....moving from primarily RWD to FWD is in point of fact a radical change and BMW's focus on performance and RWD vehicles and lack of drive pollution in steering is what has distinguished them from Audi and others.

It certainly will lead to loss of BMW customers if there's really nothing to distinguish BMW from Audi or any number of other manufacturers

Yeah...I'm not going to get an M3 because of this.

Mercedes did this with the CLA and nobody cared. Just buy a different model.

[mkoesel]

Note that for non-M vehicles, BMW already does effectively charge for the manual transmission by making the automatic transmission standard, setting the asking price of the vehicle accordingly, and then offering the manual as a no-cost option (rather than an option that actually reduces the cost).

In the future, I would not be surprised to see the same happen to the M2 and M3/M4. I actually thought they would do that with the F80/F82, but they held off. They did put the DCT "in your cart" by default on the configurator for bmwusa.com though. Not sure if they still do.

[AntDX316]

I read somewhere the asian market is looking for FWD BMWs.

[S65V8]

I don't think BMW went to turbocharging M cars purely to keep up with competition and the "HP wars", but because of emissions. If Performance was their only concern, then they could of still kept the M cars NA, like Porsche did with their GT cars.

Ultimately, emissions, keeping costs down, and appealing to a mass base (more power, more luxury) became more important to BMW M, than sticking true to their heritage in NA racing derived engines. I don't blame them, it's a business afterall...then again, Porsche has taken a different route altogether...

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by SROC5

I don't think BMW went to turbocharging M cars purely to keep up with competition and the "HP wars", but because of emissions. If Performance was their only concern, then they could of still kept the M cars NA, like Porsche did with their GT cars.

Ultimately, emissions, keeping costs down, and appealing to a mass base (more power, more luxury) became more important to BMW M, than sticking true to their heritage in NA racing derived engines. I don't blame them, it's a business afterall...then again, Porsche has taken a different route altogether...

The other aspect of turboshargers on M cars is that its really hard to tell they're turbo charged.....the implementation feels more like NA

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

BMW M was forced to go turbocharging or get left in the dust by its competitors. There is only so much horsepower/torque you can extract out of a NA motor and with tighter emissions regulations BMW like other companies had no choice.

If BMW stuck with NA then the same people complaining about turbocharging will complain "why does my M car have no torque?"

Alan

Actually what forced , forced induction on the worlds auto makers are emissions and efficiency requirements. You simply can't get to the required standards without forced induction. The few cars that are offered without it are so low volume that they don't make a dent in the average. The days of normally aspirated engines are pretty much done so anyone criticizing BMW for making turbo charged cars isn't informed. Fact is no manufactuer should say never or always because they only have control over what sells and doesn't sell and because they have no control over the regulatory environment. 20 years ago when turbo charged cars sucked pretty much everyone said no turbo ever but things change, hell did any of us think the iPhone would exist 20 years ago?

[clbmw]

Sounds like the M2 is here to stay in RWD format.

Wonder what looms for the rather well rated M140i and M240i when the next gen arrives.

[Alan l.]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Actually what forced , forced induction on the worlds auto makers are emissions and efficiency requirements. You simply can't get to the required standards without forced induction. The few cars that are offered without it are so low volume that they don't make a dent in the average. The days of normally aspirated engines are pretty much done so anyone criticizing BMW for making turbo charged cars isn't informed. Fact is no manufactuer should say never or always because they only have control over what sells and doesn't sell and because they have no control over the regulatory environment. 20 years ago when turbo charged cars sucked pretty much everyone said no turbo ever but things change, hell did any of us think the iPhone would exist 20 years ago?

Pretty much what i was saying or trying to say. The rules/regs keeps getting tighter so cars are getting lighter and engines are smaller with force induction. Back in the day companies could just keep adding cylinders or displacement to attract buyers but those days are long gone. Right now its smaller packaged engines with FI. Next will be use of hybrid systems to take things even further.

Alan

[adc]

Originally Posted by KevinM

We're doomed... I applaud BMW for trying as long as it has and I will continue to buy cars with a MT for as long as I can (and then probably will buy used cars with MT), but the demand will continue to shrink. And it looks like once the demand is down to approximately 7%, the manual will be gone.

In the latest Roundel, a BMW exec who writes a column for the magazine basically implored anyone who cares about MTs to actually ORDER them, not just appreciate the fact that the MT is available. (He was grousing about a guy who was telling him how much he loved that BMW offered a MT in the F8X...but then said he bought the DCT so his wife could drive it.)

Save the Manuals.

Have been voting manuals with my wallet since 2000. My next car will be a manual too, just not sure if it will be a BMW.

And an X3M with the S55 and real brakes would be dope, just take my money already.