BMW 1-Series Forum (F20) 135i - 1Addicts.com > Second Generation 1 Series Forum > 2012 BMW 1-Series Sporthatch (F20) Discussion > Winter Tyre Users
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      02-19-2013, 04:36 AM   #1
BenN
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Winter Tyre Users

Does anyone else find that they struggle for grip under harsh acceleration with Winter Tyres, on a dry road; when the temperature is below 7 degrees (so tyres should be better than summer)?

Im currently running a set of 205/55/R16 V Hankook ICept Evo's on aftermarket alloys, and wondered how everyone elses car's feel on the slimmer tyre width? I also run the same tyres (except H speed rating) on my Mrs' Leon, down from the standard 17" sport rims, and they seem fine on that car, but it is FWD

The tyres grip well around corners and under braking, especially well in the snow and ice. I just find that in my 120d, even in eco mode, if i put too much power down whether it be in a straight line or through a corner, the backend skips and the traction control light starts dancing , dont get me wrong, its fun when it does it in the corners!

I did < 50 miles on my Summer Bridgestone Runflats so im not sure how the power would transfer through those, id hope better since the M-Sport rims and tyres are wider on the rear axle compared to the front.

Thoughts....
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      02-19-2013, 05:01 AM   #2
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I am running pilot alpins 225's all round on the original 18 inch wheels on my m135i and no traction problems here. I do run most of the time in sport+ so traction halfway disabled.
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      02-19-2013, 07:33 AM   #3
ovekvam
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Winter tires have a softer compound and tread pattern. That means the tire needs to slip more to generate grip than a summer tire. It will give a slightly floating sensation for the driver, but the grip is still there. The DSC system sometimes cuts in too early, thinking the car is starting to slide out of control, even if it isn't. With nordic winter tires (very soft) this can be a big problem. The solution is to run in DTC mode (allows more slip), or run a tire like Michelin X-Ice 3. This tire has small locking edges in the sipes that stop the tread pattern from bending too much.
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      02-20-2013, 09:25 AM   #4
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I know what you mean Benn. On nordic winter-tyres it's even worse than on your central-europe winter tyres I think.
For me it's not possible to drive the car unless you drive in sport+ or traction mode.

I can drive @ 80km/h in eco-pro-mode with cruisecontrol engaged in 6th gear (manual) on a perfect dry road with 100% grip. If I then hit the button on the steeringwheel to up the speed a notch or two, the car will start accelerating slowly but within a second or two the antispin-symbol start flashing and the cruise-control is dis-engaged with some error displayed on the screen stating that the cruise was disengaged due to the loss of grip or something in that direction. Doesn't happen everytime but still often.

so even at the most gentle acceleration on super-low-revs on a road with perfect grip a non-existing/imaginary wheel-spin is detected. Overtaking another vehicle is unthinkable without entering traction or sport+ mode first. If one would attempt an overtake without taking those actions first (traction or sport+) they are in for quite a surpise when they throw themself out in the wrong lane, stepping on the accelerator expecting to actually have a decent acceleration but rather find themselves left with the engine strangled down to 1 hp and a flashing antispin-light making the car hardly accelerate at all even on a road with perfect grip.

It's the ultimate death-trap really. If one want to have someone killed, just lend them your bmw and encourage them to go experience the awsome driving dynamics/ultimate driving machine on country-roads. "hey, overtaking vehicles is really effortless in this quick and nimble car, you should try that"

quite a dissapointment... I guess a properly working anti-spin-system in both summertime and wintertime is too much to expect from a "premium bmw".. just like having a car without rust in it is too much to expect from bmw these days.

but to get back on topic; perhaps this is not the problem you're having? when I disable antispin I find the actual grip to be good. Do you have problems getting the power down even in traction-mode or sport+ ?
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      02-20-2013, 10:01 AM   #5
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Thanks Wolz, its good to hear im not the only one experiencing this then. My car's not as bad as your describing, although i have had a few of those moments where the TCS light flashes unnecessarily, cutting the power. My problem is more the lack of grip from the winter rubber, the stability system seems to cope fairly well with this for the most part tho, cutting the power just at the right time. I wonder whether the diesel is particularly worse due to the masses of torque sent to the rear wheels at low revs, where as the petrol is alot more progressive: i notice your in the same engine as i am. What spec/size winter tyres are you running? I usually ride around in Eco or Comfort, rarely touch sport as it just spins up the rear tyres, and i'd like to keep my Winter rubber for a few more seasons ... bring on the summer, then i can give this car a good drive!!
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      02-20-2013, 10:53 AM   #6
ovekvam
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It is all about the tyre model. I have given you the model name of a tyre that solves the problem completely, after many years of testing different brands. It is your choice. :-)
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      02-20-2013, 12:53 PM   #7
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205/55/16 nokian

I have nokian 205/55/16 which are very soft and it doesn't make any problem even if I hit kickdown aroun 3000rpm on 2nd gear, but I have much less power ajd torque then 120d.
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      02-20-2013, 03:56 PM   #8
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I have falken eurowinter in 225/45 R17 and the grip on dry is excellent, a bit less good on snow but quite easy to control any slip...
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      02-20-2013, 05:33 PM   #9
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I'm a bit surprised that a 120d would have such issues with tyre grip in the UK, unless it is lack of weight in the 1-series, or it's the tyres themselves.

I have run winter tyres on an E91 330d touring, now on an F11 535i touring and I've not had issues with traction or grip. I use the full power (including kickdown) and don't have any traction interference. 330d had Vredestein Wintrac Xtreme, the 535i has Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D fitted.

If I pull off hard in the 535i I may have a little 'chirp' from the tyres, but definitely plenty of grip once rolling.

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      02-21-2013, 12:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I'm a bit surprised that a 120d would have such issues with tyre grip in the UK, unless it is lack of weight in the 1-series, or it's the tyres themselves.

I have run winter tyres on an E91 330d touring, now on an F11 535i touring and I've not had issues with traction or grip. I use the full power (including kickdown) and don't have any traction interference. 330d had Vredestein Wintrac Xtreme, the 535i has Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D fitted.

If I pull off hard in the 535i I may have a little 'chirp' from the tyres, but definitely plenty of grip once rolling.

HighlandPete
The tyres have plenty of traction, but they require some slip to provide it. The DSC is set to react to very small amounts of slip, and will not allow the soft tyres to build up grip. It does not matter if it is a 120d or a 114i. You can tell the car your tyres should be allowed more slip by selecting DTC or Sport+. Or you can use tyres that do not need so much slip to provide normal grip.

This is not an F20 issue. Even my 323ti from previous century had the same problem with the ASC system when running soft winter tyres. I had the lamp blinking in fifth gear on dry tarmac with unsuitable tyre models.
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      02-21-2013, 04:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
The tyres have plenty of traction, but they require some slip to provide it. The DSC is set to react to very small amounts of slip, and will not allow the soft tyres to build up grip. It does not matter if it is a 120d or a 114i. You can tell the car your tyres should be allowed more slip by selecting DTC or Sport+. Or you can use tyres that do not need so much slip to provide normal grip.

This is not an F20 issue. Even my 323ti from previous century had the same problem with the ASC system when running soft winter tyres. I had the lamp blinking in fifth gear on dry tarmac with unsuitable tyre models.
So what you are saying (as I have a typical tyre for my winter climate), some models must have more interference from the DSC. I don't typically use DTC, as I don't need to on cold dry tarmac, there just isn't DSC interference on the 330d, or on the 535i. Get on snow and it is of course different, but even on wet roads a low temperatures I have not found any issues.

Perhaps it is me, as a driver, how I accelerate? I don't just jump on the throttle, all smooth movements as I was taught many years ago. I come from the age when jumping on the throttle in a BMW caused many to end up in the hedge, or worse. E28, E30 and the like.

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      02-21-2013, 05:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
So what you are saying (as I have a typical tyre for my winter climate), some models must have more interference from the DSC.
My experience is that most BMWs have the DSC sensitivity set quite high. It works well with summer tyres, but not with tyres that need lots of slip to build up grip. You probably have one of the tyre models that works well with the DSC.

If you have one of the tyres that cause DSC problems, you will see the lamp blinking even with smooth driving on dry tarmac. It can be very annoying.

Here is how Michelin sipes are designed, reducing the tread flexibility:
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      02-21-2013, 06:20 AM   #13
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I got nokian hakka R, but had the same problem on bridgestone blizzak. Perhaps the only tyre that works is the one ovekvam recommends, who knows. In that case, one would expect bmw to be so kind and inform the customers that there is only 1 tyre model that works. Not every cusomer spend time on forums or go about trying every wintertyre out there. That's a bit too much to ask for imo.

It seems like the issue is alot worse on stronger engines, seeing that I got this problem and also BenN (not as bad though), whereas honziss does not have the problem on his 116d. Honziss got the same dimension as me btw, perhaps even same model? hakka r?

I guess the problem might be isolated to or atleast more prominent on the 1er due to the fact that it's a small car with short overhang at the rear. If there is no passengers or luggage in the boot there is not much weight put on the rear axel. That in combo with a somewhat powerful engine and really soft rubber is no goodie.

the fact that the issue has been present for several models over the last 15 years (give or take?) is even more outrageous. Why is this issue still present?
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      02-21-2013, 12:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolz
I got nokian hakka R, but had the same problem on bridgestone blizzak. Perhaps the only tyre that works is the one ovekvam recommends, who knows. In that case, one would expect bmw to be so kind and inform the customers that there is only 1 tyre model that works. Not every cusomer spend time on forums or go about trying every wintertyre out there. That's a bit too much to ask for imo.

It seems like the issue is alot worse on stronger engines, seeing that I got this problem and also BenN (not as bad though), whereas honziss does not have the problem on his 116d. Honziss got the same dimension as me btw, perhaps even same model? hakka r?

I guess the problem might be isolated to or atleast more prominent on the 1er due to the fact that it's a small car with short overhang at the rear. If there is no passengers or luggage in the boot there is not much weight put on the rear axel. That in combo with a somewhat powerful engine and really soft rubber is no goodie.

the fact that the issue has been present for several models over the last 15 years (give or take?) is even more outrageous. Why is this issue still present?
BMW will tell you that you can buy a winter tyre set with a star mark which means that has been approved for use on the car by BMW. To sum up they will tell you please buy your winter tyre set at our dealership (for double the price)
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      02-21-2013, 02:17 PM   #15
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it is..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolz View Post
I got nokian hakka R, but had the same problem on bridgestone blizzak. Perhaps the only tyre that works is the one ovekvam recommends, who knows. In that case, one would expect bmw to be so kind and inform the customers that there is only 1 tyre model that works. Not every cusomer spend time on forums or go about trying every wintertyre out there. That's a bit too much to ask for imo.

It seems like the issue is alot worse on stronger engines, seeing that I got this problem and also BenN (not as bad though), whereas honziss does not have the problem on his 116d. Honziss got the same dimension as me btw, perhaps even same model? hakka r?

I guess the problem might be isolated to or atleast more prominent on the 1er due to the fact that it's a small car with short overhang at the rear. If there is no passengers or luggage in the boot there is not much weight put on the rear axel. That in combo with a somewhat powerful engine and really soft rubber is no goodie.

the fact that the issue has been present for several models over the last 15 years (give or take?) is even more outrageous. Why is this issue still present?
It is nokian wr a3, size 205/55/16, rft. If it's ok on 116d on 1-2nd gear, then it must be ok on 120d on 6th gear also.
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      02-22-2013, 01:51 AM   #16
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I dont see a problem running in sport + all day long with dtc partially disabled :-) if it can be done with a m135i then it can be done as well with a 120d.

Fyi running michelin pilot alpins a4
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      02-22-2013, 01:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhold View Post
I dont see a problem running in sport + all day long with dtc partially disabled :-) if it can be done with a m135i then it can be done as well with a 120d.
In Sport+, DTC is enabled. DSC is partially disabled.
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      02-23-2013, 04:34 PM   #18
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Thanks for all the input guys. As ovekvam says, the tyre model will definitely change the behaviour of the car, it's the same with summer tyres I guess. I think I've said elsewhere, Mitchell's tyres IMO are great, so it's good to hear that the winter rubber is also good, shame I didn't find out before getting the hankooks - i was on a budget when buying tho! Although as wolz says, without the research or experience you don't find out what's good and bad. Never had any problem with the hankooks on my golf, so maybe it's just down to the extra torque, the fact the f20 is soo light and with little weight over the rear axle when no passengers are present probably doesn't help. It's good to hear I'm not the only one tho, it's not unnerving, I just have to be conscious of it, it handles great whilst moving, I guess it's just the same as the 'chirp' mentioned above on pulling away. It's interesting Ovekvam mentions the sipes and their design on the mitchelins, the hankooks have what they market as 3D sipes to help with performance, definitely a better design than some manufacturers!! Once again, thanks guys
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      02-23-2013, 04:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenN View Post
... the fact the f20 is soo light and with little weight over the rear axle when no passengers are present probably doesn't help.
What car did you have before? The F20 is heavier than the cars I've had before, and it has n quite even weight distribution even when empty.
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      02-23-2013, 05:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenN View Post
... the fact the f20 is soo light and with little weight over the rear axle when no passengers are present probably doesn't help.
What car did you have before? The F20 is heavier than the cars I've had before, and it has n quite even weight distribution even when empty.
A FWD Golf MK6 2.0 TDi 140, it felt heavier than the F20, might not have been tho, but all the weight was over the front axle in that car, so it helped with grip!
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      02-26-2013, 01:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honziss View Post
It is nokian wr a3, size 205/55/16, rft. If it's ok on 116d on 1-2nd gear, then it must be ok on 120d on 6th gear also.
I have the same on my 118d, and I have no problem with slip unless I'm on ice or snow.
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