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      06-10-2015, 06:00 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by socal TW
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Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
Musk says... $35K USD before incentives.
The sad part is, that is the END of the 3 series. Every single basic 3 series driver will be in that Telsa 3 - I may get one as a daily.
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      06-10-2015, 07:24 AM   #46
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Talking BMW iX, COOL!

Sounds extremely smart to make an BMW iX!

I hope it looks way cooler and tougher then the i3. These i cars are amazing, but I would like to see wider wheels on them for more road contact and grip.

BMWi should focusing on a cool looking four door BMWi model as well.
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      06-10-2015, 08:04 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Kyle B View Post
EVERYONE in the EV market cares about Tesla. They are the benchmark, especially in the premium EV segment.
Only real problem with the Tesla company is the inability to make money even with all of the government subsidies. As with every other company, I am interested in knowing when they be able to make money, then be able to do it without government subsidies.

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Originally Posted by C17MooseDriver View Post
Until BMW or any other manufacturer sets up a super charging network, I wouldn't look twice at their EV cars. What's the point of a car that you can't drive long distance in?

BMW are building EV cars, Tesla is building an EV infrastructure.
This infrastructure is far away from being at all practical and only useful in an emergency or you want to prove a point. Imagine if you were in Atlanta and asked someone where the nearest gas station was and told you where the two in the city were located and you will need to sit there for 45 minutes (if there is an open pump) once you start fueling.

Except for a small amount of maintenance (not much on a 4 cylinder engine) I still can't see why I wouldn't rather have a hybrid that I can go anywhere in, not worry about running out of fuel, or not be able to go somewhere if I forget or can't plug it in.
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      06-10-2015, 10:18 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle B View Post
EVERYONE in the EV market cares about Tesla. They are the benchmark, especially in the premium EV segment.
Only real problem with the Tesla company is the inability to make money even with all of the government subsidies. As with every other company, I am interested in knowing when they be able to make money, then be able to do it without government subsidies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C17MooseDriver View Post
Until BMW or any other manufacturer sets up a super charging network, I wouldn't look twice at their EV cars. What's the point of a car that you can't drive long distance in?

BMW are building EV cars, Tesla is building an EV infrastructure.
This infrastructure is far away from being at all practical and only useful in an emergency or you want to prove a point. Imagine if you were in Atlanta and asked someone where the nearest gas station was and told you where the two in the city were located and you will need to sit there for 45 minutes (if there is an open pump) once you start fueling.

Except for a small amount of maintenance (not much on a 4 cylinder engine) I still can't see why I wouldn't rather have a hybrid that I can go anywhere in, not worry about running out of fuel, or not be able to go somewhere if I forget or can't plug it in.
I'd move Atlanta is scary in your car with the doors looked sitting at a stop light regardless of your car type. Not buying a drop of gas is great beyond belief. I see no point in a hybrid unless it offers a serious performance side.
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      06-10-2015, 11:18 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
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Originally Posted by matbl View Post
This would be interesting to get scott26's opinion on.
Especially since he previously stated that the next BMWi would be an i5 in 2020.
Scott?
As the report says it is speculation. It has been discussed But a BMWi SAV crossover could be very interesting indeed.
The next BMWi vehicle is still coming around 2020.
I would buy this on a heart beat. It would make a good companion to the i3 i am getting next summer.
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      06-10-2015, 02:05 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by sdshah View Post
Should be fun to go 175 miles and then have to go home and charge up...
If they offer it with REx range anxiety and/or limitations disappear. I drove my i3 with REx from Atlanta to Memphis (~425 miles) my first day of ownership.

There is a lot of miss information out there about the i3 and EV's in general.

I hope it is true, I'm on week 5 of i3 ownership and I'm never going back. We have an aging Honda CRV that will need to be replaced with an EV-SAV.
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      06-10-2015, 02:12 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The issue here is that there are forthcoming eDrive BMW X models arriving now and in the not so distant future that an SUV BMWi vehicle may be counter productive.

The X5 4.0e xDrive is about to arrive on the market as will the X1 2.3e XDrive late next year.
The next generation BMW X3 will be offered the X3 3.0e xDrive. And then the upcoming BMW X5 and X7 will be offered with Performance orientated Power eDrive with xDrive.

As of now BMWi are focusing on the four door BMWi model.
Excellent points yet I fear if they do not release an i SAV they will loose customers to other brands. PHEV SAV's and Cars are great for some people, but for those that have converted to EV only, reverting to a PHEV just won't do. I am still new to the EV game but it seems like a lot of EV owners feel like PHEV's just complicate ICE vehicles with expensive parts and lousy EV only range. A dual motor i specific SAV with REx would be a perfect replacement for our aging ICE SUV and an excellent compliment to my i3 with REx.
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      06-10-2015, 08:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
I hope it is true, I'm on week 5 of i3 ownership and I'm never going back. We have an aging Honda CRV that will need to be replaced with an EV-SAV.
I'm on week 1 with my i3 REx. Isn't it amazing how all ICE cars feel like stone-age junk now with their need to build revs and their "transmissions"?

Seriously though, theres no going back from electric power I fear. It's just too effortless and too smoooooth. The charging network needs a lot of work but does anyone seriously think this isn't going to increase each year? There will only be more EVs over time, not less.

Any you'll get more conventional looking calls like the eGolf if the i3 is too painfully futuristic looking for your tastes. I'd say it is for most!
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      06-10-2015, 08:52 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle B View Post
EVERYONE in the EV market cares about Tesla. They are the benchmark, especially in the premium EV segment.
Only real problem with the Tesla company is the inability to make money even with all of the government subsidies. As with every other company, I am interested in knowing when they be able to make money, then be able to do it without government subsidies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C17MooseDriver View Post
Until BMW or any other manufacturer sets up a super charging network, I wouldn't look twice at their EV cars. What's the point of a car that you can't drive long distance in?

BMW are building EV cars, Tesla is building an EV infrastructure.
This infrastructure is far away from being at all practical and only useful in an emergency or you want to prove a point. Imagine if you were in Atlanta and asked someone where the nearest gas station was and told you where the two in the city were located and you will need to sit there for 45 minutes (if there is an open pump) once you start fueling.

Except for a small amount of maintenance (not much on a 4 cylinder engine) I still can't see why I wouldn't rather have a hybrid that I can go anywhere in, not worry about running out of fuel, or not be able to go somewhere if I forget or can't plug it in.
If you think the current supercharging network is only for emergencies, then you are seriously behind on what Tesla has accomplished. Plus, they are adding to their super charger network every year.

There's plenty of YouTube videos of people driving their Teslas coast to coast, without spending a dime on gas. I think that shows it's quite practical. It just takes some planning but it's no where considered an "emergency" to use the supercharging network
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      06-10-2015, 10:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by C17MooseDriver View Post
If you think the current supercharging network is only for emergencies, then you are seriously behind on what Tesla has accomplished. Plus, they are adding to their super charger network every year.

There's plenty of YouTube videos of people driving their Teslas coast to coast, without spending a dime on gas. I think that shows it's quite practical. It just takes some planning but it's no where considered an "emergency" to use the supercharging network
THey are building them along the major highways for the most part. If you stay along them, yes, you can put a lot of miles on your Tesla. But, it will be a very long time before you can chose any route, anywhere, and get a recharge in a reasonable time. IF you can find an EVSE, most of them are still only in the 30A or less range...try filling up your 85Kw Tesla with one of those...you'll quickly wish for an ICE, or a hybrid!

There are 6 major vehicle manufacturers that chose the J1772 port (the European is functionally identical except they chose a different plug - hard to get all of the Euro countries to agree). Their combined manufacturing capabilities make chademo unlikely to predominate in a few years. Euro zone mandated all new DC fast charging stations must be CCS compatible, and they can support chademo as well, but do not have to. Personally, having one opening for recharging is nicer than two different ones...if it fits, it will work, whether level 1, 2, or CCS. I do not see J1772 being recinded in favor of chademo, I see it's rollout to accelerate as more and more vehicles show up in the next few years. I do not see the Leaf's volume keeping pace with all of the J1772 equipped vehicles of all of the manufacturers that have agreed to use it. The other chademo players, at least in the USA, are only sold in very small quantities, and often, only in limited areas. The majority of J1772 equipped vehicles have much larger distribution channels for their upcoming and existing models.

Sort of like going from cassette to CD, and then DVD, and now BluRay.
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      06-10-2015, 10:18 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ssstraub View Post
I'm on week 1 with my i3 REx. Isn't it amazing how all ICE cars feel like stone-age junk now with their need to build revs and their "transmissions"?

Seriously though, theres no going back from electric power I fear. It's just too effortless and too smoooooth. The charging network needs a lot of work but does anyone seriously think this isn't going to increase each year? There will only be more EVs over time, not less.

Any you'll get more conventional looking calls like the eGolf if the i3 is too painfully futuristic looking for your tastes. I'd say it is for most!
Congrats on your i3, if you haven't found the i3 FB group, check it out, lots of good stuff on there. https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/

Yes, when I drive our CRV or any other ICE I just feel like WTF during and afterwards. I've been following the i3 since I can ever remember it being rumored, spy photo's, etc. Did the i3 event test drive prior to release and then took one home for an extended test drive last fall. Once you drive one, it just GROWS on you, like an electric fungus. Its not perfect, its not for everyone but it is a great car. The styling really grows on you too. I've always like hatchback's, wagon's and small SUV's, the i3 is like all 3 combined but also a coupe but then it has those rear doors almost lifted from early 2000's extended cab trucks but then it also so much more. If I can scrounge up the extra coin (having to get used to having car payments again after not having any for nearly 5 years) I'm going to lower her down to help with the body roll, then she'll be near perfect (well, except I wish I could have gotten the sunroof in the US!). Tint and just a few minor mods so far, loving it more and more each day. This is coming from someone that drove an e46 ZHP daily for nearly 9 years and swore I would never sell that car. I do still look for the clutch pedal and shift lever from time to time and every now and then when I go to exit the i3 I try to remove the nonexistent keys from the steering wheel column. Old habits die hard!

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      06-12-2015, 05:54 AM   #56
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This is typical BMW marketing hype. They claim to be deciding on building a battery electric to complete with the Tesla X, which is coming on sale in a few months and has 20,000 orders in the bank. Any car design is at least a 5-year endeavor from concept to factory production, so BMW is at least 5 years behind Tesla in selling a EV SUV. And BMW has not sold one battery electric vehicle ever. Tesla's been in business for 12 years and it the market leader and dare say state-of-the-art leader in realistic EVs.

Again another BMW marketing hype to laugh at.
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      06-12-2015, 09:53 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
And BMW has not sold one battery electric vehicle ever. Tesla's been in business for 12 years and it the market leader and dare say state-of-the-art leader in realistic EVs.
Did you miss the BEV i3? It's the most effiecient BEV available. The REx is only an option...

That word "realistic" is misleading. My average daily drive is 25 miles, so it's definitely realistic to me. I wouldn't have bought the car if I drove 200 miles a day. We are a 2 car household so trip are covered as well, even if we could take the REx cross country if we so chose. I can't carry sheets of plywood either, but I'd rent a truck for $25 to do that the few times it's needed.

Tesla took the approach of adding MOAR batteries and ended up with a much larger and heavier car that also takes far more amps to charge in a reasonable time. It's a workable approach but there are tradeoffs.

Where Tesla is objectively years beyond the rest of the industry is their attitude around software updates, especially post-sale. Not only do I have to go to a dealer to update the "car" software on my i3, it's like pulling teeth to get them to do so and the job is at least 3 hours.
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      06-12-2015, 10:06 AM   #58
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Congrats on your i3...
Thanks, you too. We have quite a lot in common:
-Both coming from satisfying, decade long ownership of an E46 with a manual transmission
-Test drove i3 at an event and extended test
-Haven't had car payments for 5 years
-Now in identical i3s with same color and wheels
-Still getting used to that upright driving position
-Views on exterior styling went from "huh?" to "I kinda like this" (it's no E46, but what is?!)



The interior, however, I loved almost immediately. The amount of open space around the dash (especially on the lower part) is great vs any other car I've been in. Most cars are downright claustrophobic feeling now.
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      06-12-2015, 11:36 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ssstraub View Post
Did you miss the BEV i3? It's the most effiecient BEV available. The REx is only an option...

That word "realistic" is misleading. My average daily drive is 25 miles, so it's definitely realistic to me. I wouldn't have bought the car if I drove 200 miles a day. We are a 2 car household so trip are covered as well, even if we could take the REx cross country if we so chose. I can't carry sheets of plywood either, but I'd rent a truck for $25 to do that the few times it's needed.

Tesla took the approach of adding MOAR batteries and ended up with a much larger and heavier car that also takes far more amps to charge in a reasonable time. It's a workable approach but there are tradeoffs.

Where Tesla is objectively years beyond the rest of the industry is their attitude around software updates, especially post-sale. Not only do I have to go to a dealer to update the "car" software on my i3, it's like pulling teeth to get them to do so and the job is at least 3 hours.
Yeah, you're right I did forget the i3 LOL, but it's forgettable to me I guess (yes, I have test driven one - electric torque blah, blah, blah) and an 80 mile range is such a small market. I was really thinking the Tesla as a conventional car with realistic range for a much larger market share of drivers.

And the efficiency is 124 MPGe for the i3 vs. 95 MPGe for the Tesla (EPA numbers), so you'd say the i3 wins hands down; an engineering triumph! However, lets look at it a bit differently... If you calculate the efficiency per cubic foot of total space (passenger and cargo) the numbers swing the other way. The Tesla moves 1.26 cubic feet per MPGe and the i3 only moves .80 cubic feet (foot) per MPGe, so the Tesla actually is more efficient at doing what cars are supposed to do, move people and stuff comfortably. The i3 is small and cramped in the back seat; really a pain in the ass to get in there, and the trunk is small. The Tesla actually behaves like a real car, which is why people like it. So yeah, the i3 wins the efficiency award for EVs at 124, but when you factor in real world aesthetics like usable size and EV range, the Tesla is the better choice.

And I guess I was thinking about BMW before the i3 really. I mean few months of sales of an i3 does not make BMW the world-class leader in EVs like all its marketing hype thinks it is of everything it hypes about. The point I was trying to make is Tesla is far ahead of BMW regarding design and development of an EV. I'll even say that GM is far ahead of BMW in EVs too. GM introduced the EV1 20 years ago now.

And yeah I get it, the S has a bigger battery, which hurts the efficiency, but isn't that really the issue with all EV designs and somewhat the fatal flaw of the concept as a whole? Sure the i3 has carbon fiber construction, but that’s not much of a game changer for me. I just find it funny that the i3 gets painted with the BMW legacy handling traits, but you can’t really drive it anywhere where you can take advantage of the handling (i.e. out in the country).

I'm more interested in the upcoming Chevy Bolt, 200 mile range and $35K, looks more in the sweet spot market-wise to me. That car I'd get for my commute.

Enjoy the i3. It's cool, but has a limited sales market, as we've already seen. Makes sense in a city (if the charging availablity works for you), but for all the available mass-transit already in place.
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 06-14-2015 at 06:27 AM..
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      06-12-2015, 11:48 AM   #60
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I hate all the people that bring up the "but you can't drive it everywhere right NOW!" argument. No shit! But we have to start somewhere. The same thing happened with gas powered cars.

I applaud the early adopters of EV's. My hat to you good sirs/madams.

I am also jealous that I can not get an EV charging station in my condo ....... yet. There may be an i3 parked in my spot some day.
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      06-12-2015, 01:16 PM   #61
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If EVs are going to be the future of automobiles, manufacturers have to do something to stop the bleeding. It doesn't seem like enough people buy another after owning one. That says a LOT.

http://www.edmunds.com/about/press/h...dmundscom.html" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.edmunds.c...dscom.html</a>
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      06-12-2015, 10:52 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW
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Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
Musk says... $35K USD before incentives.
The sad part is, that is the END of the 3 series. Every single basic 3 series driver will be in that Telsa 3 - I may get one as a daily.
Lol you guys are funny, you know nothing about the model 3 except the price and already its the only car you can imagine buying. What if it only gets 100 mile range? What if it is slow? At 35k theres no way it will be everything the model S is
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      06-13-2015, 05:19 AM   #63
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Lol you guys are funny, you know nothing about the model 3 except the price and already its the only car you can imagine buying. What if it only gets 100 mile range? What if it is slow? At 35k theres no way it will be everything the model S is
I find it funny that people expect that a vehicle designed for the principle purpose of saving precious energy and eliminating carbon pollutants from the air (which it really doesn't) to save the Earth has to not be slow. I'm not sure one can use technology to change the laws of physics, which dictate accelerating a mass requires a certain amount of energy, so accelerating a mass at a faster rate takes more energy. It's usually the other way around...
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      06-13-2015, 05:57 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
I hate all the people that bring up the "but you can't drive it everywhere right NOW!" argument. No shit! But we have to start somewhere. The same thing happened with gas powered cars.

I applaud the early adopters of EV's. My hat to you good sirs/madams.

I am also jealous that I can not get an EV charging station in my condo ....... yet. There may be an i3 parked in my spot some day.
Except gas cars were competing with the horse...
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      06-13-2015, 06:30 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
Lol you guys are funny, you know nothing about the model 3 except the price and already its the only car you can imagine buying. What if it only gets 100 mile range? What if it is slow? At 35k theres no way it will be everything the model S is
I find it funny that people expect that a vehicle designed for the principle purpose of saving precious energy and eliminating carbon pollutants from the air (which it really doesn't) to save the Earth has to not be slow. I'm not sure one can use technology to change the laws of physics, which dictate accelerating a mass requires a certain amount of energy, so accelerating a mass at a faster rate takes more energy. It's usually the other way around...
Im not sure really I get your point, but if it is that people should sacrifice speed and sportiness of a car for the environment than tesla is a direct contradiction of this - being a rocketship of a car that has ultimately limited green value when you consider the electricity is majority fossil fuel. Today people want an alternative that is competitive in all aspects that they enjoy about their current car, or if there are downsides they must be counterbalanced by the upsides. Many green cars are completely lopsided in this regard, which is why they dont sell at all, tesla has done a great job keeping this balance as even or positively-favored, but I still see a gap in what you get for an 80k telsa in overall car and what you get for an 80k M3. But thats just me
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      06-14-2015, 06:19 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
Im not sure really I get your point, but if it is that people should sacrifice speed and sportiness of a car for the environment than tesla is a direct contradiction of this - being a rocketship of a car that has ultimately limited green value when you consider the electricity is majority fossil fuel. Today people want an alternative that is competitive in all aspects that they enjoy about their current car, or if there are downsides they must be counterbalanced by the upsides. Many green cars are completely lopsided in this regard, which is why they dont sell at all, tesla has done a great job keeping this balance as even or positively-favored, but I still see a gap in what you get for an 80k telsa in overall car and what you get for an 80k M3. But thats just me
[Please note I'm not a Greenie by any stretch and don't believe cars are killing the Earth]

My point is the electric car has been recently reintroduced mainly for the purpose to satisfy the left-leaning Green Peace types who believe the "carbon footprint" of automobiles is harming the environment and causing "Global Warming", or worst-yet-sounding... "Climate Change". With that ideology in mind, making an electric car with a high capacity for acceleration is counterproductive to the purpose of forcing the societal switchover to electric vehicles. The purpose of the EV is to reduce carbon emissions to prevent climate change, make the immediate atmospheric area around the vehicle more breathable, and to conserve energy. So EVs should have reasonable acceleration to safely meet current traffic requirements (i.e. not 0 - 60 in 3.2 seconds) and be as efficient as possible.

You stated we all are calling good on the forthcoming Tesla 3 all but for just knowing the price and not much else. Except that Tesla has stated the car will have a 200-mile range. Seeing that Tesla stated the S would have a 300-mile range (and it does in an ideal situation), we can believe Tesla when it says the 3 will have 200 miles. Now about the price of $35K. Based on Tesla's website you can get a base-model Model S for 57,500, but that's a bit of smoke and mirrors; being that the car is actually $75,000, then less the $7,500 tax rebate, and an estimated $10,000 in fuel savings over 5 years, so I'd expect the Tesla 3 to have a real price of around $53K.

To your point about the Tesla S and it's excellent acceleration capability, think about how more efficient the car could be without a 0 - 60 time of 3.2 seconds and the two motors needed to achieve it. The base version of the S makes 60 mph in 5.2 seconds, perhaps a second too fast if you wanted to trade the energy for for some more range. Tesla makes versions of the S to hit 60 MPH in 3.2 sec. to prove EVs don't have to be slow (your point), but for efficiency sakes it's too fast. That type of acceleration means chassis and suspension parts have to be robust (so as not to beak from the torque loading), and the brakes have to be bigger to slow the thing down (it does carry a very heavy battery) and the wheels bigger (heavier), etc. Make the S slower and some more weight can come out of it, which gains efficiency or range.

If the Tesla 3 gets to 60 MPH in 6 seconds to achieve a range of 200 miles and that requires a smaller battery that recharges to 80% in 20 minutes, then I could see buying one.

The 2017 Chevy Bolt looks promising in this regard too. I'm looking forward to the race between Tesla and GM to see who gets their car out first. My money is on GM.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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