[SteveC]

Originally Posted by schaeffs

Tight Chassis? Ooh err!! ...

Bit of a stretch, don't you think

Originally Posted by schaeffs

Also - I'm talking about an X5 M50d in Eco Pro - I'd imagine a 116i in Eco pro would be a different proposition and not the best model for the feature...

Not if its anything like the Eco Pro in the M135i.....Eco Pro literally kills that car's performance

Personally I like to drive a responsive car, even when I'm only driving it slowly.

What I hate about Eco Pro is the way it changes controls, so the car feels not only loose and sloppy but also I've no longer any idea how much throttle to dose to adjust my speed. Its generally a lot more than I was expecting so Eco Pro takes my educated right foot and turns every throttle adjustment into a conscious movement. Eco pro actually trains you to become heavy footed.
As I stated in my post above, the only good thing about Eco Pro is that it collects all the economy measures together under 1 button, which you can easily avoid using

[matthewcornish]

I didn't buy an M135i to save the planet but I do drive it in Eco Pro around towns / cities all the time and find it to be just fine. If you need a sudden spurt then just plant your foot or switch yourself into a higher driving mode. It's no big deal. Passengers tend to appreciate the eco pro driving style...

Obviously the rest of the time I'm driving around in Sport / Sport+

[schaeffs]

I think it's a case of getting used to Eco Pro - I have in the X5 and whilst it does totally change the character of the car once you understand what it's trying to do it's definitely acceptable. Having said that I love the sport plus in the X5 - it's epic and even makes the engine sound better!!

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by schaeffs

once you understand what it's trying to do it's definitely acceptable.

Eco = Economical and Pro = Professional Oh now I get it......its for economical kerb crawling....I see what you mean. Once you get it, then yes, it is quite acceptable

[matthewcornish]

Originally Posted by schaeffs

I think it's a case of getting used to Eco Pro

Yeah that's all it is

Originally Posted by schaeffs

Having said that I love the sport plus in the X5 - it's epic and even makes the engine sound better!!

Yeah so then driving in town you end up wanting to hear the increased burbles you get from the exhaust while pootling around in 2nd - which sounds rather pleasing echoed off the buildings so you end up driving in Sport+ all the time

Originally Posted by SteveC

......its for economical kerb crawling....

[schaeffs]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Eco = Economical and Pro = Professional Oh now I get it......its for economical kerb crawling....I see what you mean. Once you get it, then yes, it is quite acceptable

Haha - I heard that's what the boys like doing up North!

The car is of course much better in sport or sport plus - but don't knock Eco-pro it's another option for owners to use. If you don't like it don't press the button - plenty will however!

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by schaeffs

Haha - I heard that's what the boys like doing up North!

The car is of course much better in sport or sport plus - but don't knock Eco-pro it's another option for owners to use. If you don't like it don't press the button - plenty will however!

It's all make believe marketing Eco Pro.

[No one]

Originally Posted by RiczPT

It's good for mpgs, because most of the time it's a challegnge to get as much of bonus miles as possible!

But there's so little possible! I tried Eco Pro in jams - it's nice to see some gain (even negligible) but once I push harder it's taken away... I stopped playing with it: not a bit of sense to me in fact. Yet, it might be useful for really long steady speed runs when those bits should make something. Let it be there available.

Acceleration-wise, I don't seem to experience really much of degradation - when flat down it feels fairly much the same as in the Sport+ I always use. I fortunately miss the adaptive steering (Servotronic), suspension and gearbox , I even miss the auto climate to notice the saving adaptation, so it looks like throttle mapping (only?).

Regarding one button. I have to push two in fact: to activate the mode and to disable the engine auto stop/start Eco Pro implies - when slow rolling you never know if shutting the engine makes sense. What is a bit annoying is that I can't engage the auto stop/start just in place when I'm stuck with the traffic light: it takes some motion first to start working.

I always drive in Sport+: the Comfort feels sloppy, no need for tight Sport traction, and the DSC OFF (besides implying the Comfort throttle ) looks irresponsible on public roads even though I never had (and hardly missed ) even the ABS on my previous cars. I only used DSC OFF to get out of a snowdrift, which, I must say, my car performed surprisingly well (more confidently than my previous FWDs) .

[Kiwi]

This is so true and my experience with some BMW's and the 1 series. I've been driving around in Sport Mode with my new 116i (now a 118i due to BMW changing the badge on new face-lift 1 series) and the car just fly's and very responsive like a go-cart. I did try comfort mode for awhile but the slug was embarrassing to drive.

"Mazda MX-5 Program Manager Nobuhiro Yamamoto has revealed the roadster won't be getting any high-performance variants.
Speaking to Top Gear at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, Yamamoto said "It's important not to get hung up on numbers" because "the driving experience and feeling is more important than power"

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

This is so true and my experience with some BMW's and the 1 series. I've been driving around in Sport Mode with my new 116i (now a 118i due to BMW changing the badge on new face-lift 1 series) and the car just fly's and very responsive like a go-cart. I did try comfort mode for awhile but the slug was embarrassing to drive.

The power is the same in Comfort Mode and Sport Mode. You just have to push the throttle pedal further in to get the full potential. I drive faster lap times with DSC Off (which uses Comfort pedal mapping) than Sport+.

And the N13 engine is nowhere near the response of a natually aspirated gokart. It has lots of turbo lag.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

The power is the same in Comfort Mode and Sport Mode. You just have to push the throttle pedal further in to get the full potential. I drive faster lap times with DSC Off (which uses Comfort pedal mapping) than Sport+.

And the N13 engine is nowhere near the response of a natually aspirated gokart. It has lots of turbo lag.

Don't agree at all so we will just have to disagree.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Don't agree at all so we will just have to disagree.

I guess it should be possible to measure this over OBD2, by logging throttle input and turbo boost pressure. Then we can compare Comfort Mode and Sport Mode.

A properly tuned gokart will respond just as fast as you can push the throttle down. The lag on the N13 feels like around a second or so. In autoX, I lose approximately one second per hairpin turn to the naturally aspirated cars because of this. If the course has five hairpins, I will be five seconds behind. Not good in a sport where the top cars are seperated by tenths or hundreths of a second.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

I guess it should be possible to measure this over OBD2, by logging throttle input and turbo boost pressure. Then we can compare Comfort Mode and Sport Mode.

A properly tuned gokart will respond just as fast as you can push the throttle down. The lag on the N13 feels like around a second or so. In autoX, I lose approximately one second per hairpin turn to the naturally aspirated cars because of this. If the course has five hairpins, I will be five seconds behind. Not good in a sport where the top cars are seperated by tenths or hundreths of a second.

My 116i doesn't lose a second in sports mode it picks up in a split second. I smile around town with it's quick response. In comfort mode yes pick up is slow and Eco Pro it's ridiculously slow.

Owners have to get past the micro dollar saving and enjoy BMW's in Sport mode.

Go-Kart is the only way I can explain Sports Mode. I don't know what else I can compare the 116i too. The 116i even spins its rear tires for a split second on some surfaces when putting the foot down a little more than normal.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

My 116i doesn't lose a second in sports mode it picks up in a split second. I smile around town with it's quick response. In comfort mode yes pick up is slow and Eco Pro it's ridiculously slow.

Owners have to get past the micro dollar saving and enjoy BMW's in Sport mode.

I think it is easier to modulate the power accurately with the full pedal travel than only half pedal travel like Sport Mode, but I guess that is just a matter of preference. The disadvantage with Sport Mode, is that the stability control makes the car unable to corner on the limit. The car starts braking for you. In DSC Off, you get the fake differential brake, and no stability control. That way you can drive faster, and get less wheelspin.

In our 116i, I can not really tell a difference when it comes to turbo lag in Sport or Comfort. I guess we need some data logging to see if I am right or not. It feels like around a second in Sport Mode as well.

In Eco Pro Mode, the throttle response is significantly slower, and the power seems to be reduced too.

I drove a new Fiesta 1 litre turbo recently. It had around 2 seconds of turbo lag, so I guess the BMW is still pretty good compared to other turbo cars.

[///M-pressed]

I usually drive around in the Sport because of the throttle response. I put the car back in ECO PRO. Lasted about two seconds before I hated it. And this is in a 125i, so I can't imagine a 116..

[///M-pressed]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Don't agree at all so we will just have to disagree.

He's right, it's like the sport button on the E46 M3. It just opens the throttle bodies more but it doesn't necessarily give the car more power. It feels that way I know, but in reality it ain't.

[No one]

The turbo lag comes from dropping the revs, doesn't it? I noticed that once I've stepped off the accelerator it feels like I have time for a cup of tea before the engine pulls after stepping on again.

"Don't let the revs go down on me": it's interesting to operate the engine properly to explore it's full potential rather than stupidly invest into more power to present just a part of it (effectively) as "a lot" compared to the weaker . I guess if you intend to pull away you should have the proper revs (turbine pressure) just ready for the moment.

Regarding noticing or not noticing the lag with the same engine. Besides personal perception and driving style it could be the gearbox (manual 6 against auto 8) that matters too. When I drove an auto (new/current) 320i loaner I noticed quite a difference about kickdown from my manual 118i: in "Sport and Sport" (the "car and gearbox" modes) the 320i took a breath and then accelerated just amazingly, tearing the space if not time , "like a scalded cat" (no cats mistreating! ) while mine goes on in a calmer manner . Not exactly slower, I believe, but quite differently as it feels.

[No one]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

my new 116i (now a 118i due to BMW changing the badge on new face-lift 1 series)

"BMW changing the badge on new face-lift 1 series" does not affect non-facelifts. So your 116i is still a 116i both officially and effectively no matter what. If you still wish to re-badge for "clarity" you should probably make it "135+1" (hp) , or simply de-badge .

[ovekvam]

The turbo lag is present at all engine speeds. The turbo is driven by exhaust energy, and when you go off the throttle, the intake valves are closed. This causes the exhaust flow to stop, and the turbo will spool down. Excess pressure is let out by a valve. Eventually the turbo will be spinning very slowly. Once you go back on the throttle, it has to spin itself up again, and this takes time. At high RPM, you have more exhaust flow, so it will spin itself up faster. The engine will also need more air from the turbo at high RPM, so it needs to spin up to a very high speed to produce boost.

To test turbo lag, go off the throttle a few seconds, and then floor it. Notice how long time it takes from you hit the throttle to the engine is at full power for the given RPM.

[No one]

All right, accepted: not exactly engine RPM but rather throttle (the turbine's RPM in fact). What I must have actually meant was some throttle was needed to keep the engine RPM from falling to idle. I'll check again on occasion.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by No one

All right, accepted: not exactly engine RPM but rather throttle (the turbine's RPM in fact). What I must have actually meant was some throttle was needed to keep the engine RPM from falling to idle. I'll check again on occasion.

Yes. Some rally cars inject fuel into the exhaust on trailing throttle to keep the turbo spooled up. Sounds like fireworks, and makes the turbo very short lived, but the throttle response is awesome.

One way to avoid turbo lag coming out of corners, is to use left foot braking, as in braking with you left foot while keeping the throttle pedal floored. Once again, mostly for rally use, and not recommended for public traffic!

[No one]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

One way to avoid turbo lag coming out of corners, is to use left foot braking, as in braking with you left foot while keeping the throttle pedal floored. Once again, mostly for rally use, and not recommended for public traffic!

I disregard left foot braking: never even tried. I mean some "shape up" throttling over stepping off completely could be useful when changing gears (the gearbox takes some time to synchronize) or changing lanes (I tend to decrease acceleration).