[kent11202]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I am a lawyer. One of the things 44 years of practicing law has taught me is not to listen to lay people's legal advice.

In this case it seems that there is arguably a verbal contact, reliance on representations and a change of position. (This is called "detrimental reliance" and leads to "promissory estoppel" A lawyer may help but before then reminding BMWFS of the representation of its agent on which you reasonably relied and took action might be helpful.

Good luck.

Malibu is, in my opinion, spot on when it comes to the "detrimental reliance" issue. I once purchased a new home, sold my other one and only then learned the property lines showing on their documents were WRONG and the lot was actually a bit smaller. I contacted the developer, and without benefit of counsel, used the term "detrimental reliance." Within two days they fell all over themselves to come up with a favorable decision I could live with. (as in several $$$$$ and a significant number of upgrades).

As far as the jerks at BMWFS goes, I would keep pushing them HARD - ask them if they have anyone working there with decision making authority that HASN'T had their heart removed.

Absent resolution in your favor, I suppose you could tell them you will assume the lease and let the damn thing sit unused for the next year - if doing so results in some sort of mechanical issues, so freaking what? I'm sure there's nothing in the lease agreement REQUIRING you to drive X miles per year but they would probably try to say you didn't maintain it properly - just get around that by taking it in for any "time" sensitive maintenance.

Now with all that ranting over, get back to the dealer. I'm sure they would like to keep you as a future customer and will bend over backwards.

Sorry for your loss - take care of your Mom and yourself - that's the most important thing right now.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

IANAL, but you might want to mention to BMWFS next time you talk with them, that you are chronicling this whole process on social media. Don't make any threats, or anything like that, because that will not turn out well for you, just say to them something along the lines of this "In the interests of full disclosure, I am chronicling this process on social media (Facebook, Twitter, BMW enthusiast forums, etc...) in order to educate other people on the process so that they may avoid any of the pitfalls they are encountering"

That may encourage BMWFS to treat you better in this period of grief.

I find this advice dubious. BMW NA didn't care about bad publicity when Husker Motors in Nebraska tried to stiff an eBay M3 bidder who had the winning bid in a no reserve auction, discussed here.

I know because I represented dooma350, the successful bidder and spent a lot of time talking to BMW NA's general counsel about the matter. Social media publicity (including over 1,000,000 views when I became involved) didn't move BMW NA. There was a hundred pages of bad legal advice on that thread, a lot of it from lawyers and law students who completely overlooked the fact that the Nebraska (or California) Uniform Commercial Code governed the transaction. (The dealer was in Nebraska, the buyer in California.)

[kent11202]

I can't get this situation out of my mind. The fact they told you they would auction it off for $10,000 LESS than it's WORTH sounds very much like a blackmail threat to me!

Further, you mentioned your Mom LOST your Dad's Social Security. I think you need to look into that more closely. Unless she was getting a Social Security benefit equal or greater than his, she may very well be entitled to a survivor benefit that is larger than what she's getting now. I'm no expert on this subject but have been told by the SSA that if I check out, my wife will lose her benefit but get mine which is higher.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I find this advice dubious. BMW NA didn't care about bad publicity when Husker Motors in Nebraska tried to stiff an eBay M3 bidder who had the winning bid in a no reserve auction, discussed here.

I know because I represented dooma350, the successful bidder and spent a lot of time talking to BMW NA's general counsel about the matter. Social media publicity (including over 1,000,000 views when I became involved) didn't move BMW NA. There was a hundred pages of bad legal advice on that thread, a lot of it from lawyers and law students who completely overlooked the fact that the Nebraska (or California) Uniform Commercial Code governed the transaction. (The dealer was in Nebraska, the buyer in California.)

Like I said, IANAL, and I can not speak to the legal aspect, but that is a completely different issue. Dealer mistake versus this being a BMWNA/BMWFS mistake. As I'm sure you're aware, dealers are independent entities, not beholden to corporate for many things.

Certainly, bad publicity hurts both the dealer, and BMW directly, but after skimming through the salient points on the thread you linked, that was in 2008. Again, I'm sure you are aware, but social media has changed drastically in the past 7 years and most major corporations are much, much more aware of the negative (or positive) impact social media has nowadays.

Either way, two completely different situations, two different time periods. I doubt the issue/thread you linked to has any relevant bearing whatsoever on the OP's current situation.

OP, best of luck to you, and again, as I mentioned, I would go with chronicling this on social media. In my opinion, it has a strong possibility of helping your case, and very little chances of hurting your case.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Like I said, IANAL, and I can not speak to the legal aspect, but that is a completely different issue. Dealer mistake versus this being a BMWNA/BMWFS mistake. As I'm sure you're aware, dealers are independent entities, not beholden to corporate for many things.

Certainly, bad publicity hurts both the dealer, and BMW directly, but after skimming through the salient points on the thread you linked, that was in 2008. Again, I'm sure you are aware, but social media has changed drastically in the past 7 years and most major corporations are much, much more aware of the negative (or positive) impact social media has nowadays.

Either way, two completely different situations, two different time periods. I doubt the issue/thread you linked to has any relevant bearing whatsoever on the OP's current situation.

OP, best of luck to you, and again, as I mentioned, I would go with chronicling this on social media. In my opinion, it has a strong possibility of helping your case, and very little chances of hurting your case.

But you did speak to the legal issue, and were wrong. And now you're changing the subject where I've responded to someone else's suggestion that "bad publicity" may work.

It won't. BMW NA was taking a pounding in the disappointed M3 bidder thread I linked. BMW NA didn't care. Even though the thread had gone viral with over a million hits.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

But you did speak to the legal issue, and were wrong. And now you're changing the subject where I've responded to someone else's suggestion that "bad publicity" may work.

It won't. BMW NA was taking a pounding in the disappointed M3 bidder thread I linked. BMW NA didn't care. Even though the thread had gone viral with over a million hits.

I'm not sure where you think I spoke to the legal issues; I did not intend to do so, and if I did, I apologize. As an aside, please point out to me where you think I did speak to legal issues. Also, I'm pretty sure I wasn't changing the subject; I have only spoken to the social media/publicity aspect in all my posts.

I did, however, speak directly to the publicity, and again, you are flat out wrong in trying to make a comparison to the 2008 incident. Social media has changed so much in the past 7 years, that there is no comparison whatsoever. If you disagree, please do some research into various social media issues in which corporations have been publicly shamed in the past ~12 months. Almost invariably, said corporations have caved, and either fully, or partially acceded to the explicit or implicit demands that accompanied said shaming. Contrast that with 2008, in which, while Twitter was a thing, it was not anywhere near the popularity it is now (growth in Twitter form 2008 to 2010: "This grew to 100 million tweets posted per quarter in 2008. In February 2010, Twitter users were sending 50 million tweets per day." Ref: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...s-per-day.html ) In fact, I would submit that comparing the power of social media in 2008 to 2015 is like comparing the telegraph to the smartphone. Or perhaps an abacus to IBM's Watson. Sure, they share some basic characteristics, but are truly separated by multiple orders of magnitude.

Again, to the OP, I recommend the social media avenue. It will likely help, and almost definitely not hurt. Not to be crass, but it plays directly to people's emotions; that of a grieving widow and son, fighting the faceless corporation.

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

I'm not sure where you think I spoke to the legal issues; I did not intend to do so, and if I did, I apologize. As an aside, please point out to me where you think I did speak to legal issues. Also, I'm pretty sure I wasn't changing the subject; I have only spoken to the social media/publicity aspect in all my posts.
. . .

This was your legal advice:

If the contract doesn't say anything about "in case of death" you are not responsible for anything! One suggestion is to start changing docs that your father owned or was co owner on, like the title of other cars, warranty deeds, mortgage, and so on.

I'm not sure how you missed it. I highlighted the first part of it in my previous post.

I disagree with you on the social media publicity. BMW FS won't care and, unfortunately, this dispute won't have the same interest to the BMW community as a BMW authorized dealer welshing on a great deal earned by the highest bidder at an auction on a brand new M3.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

This was your legal advice:

I'm not sure how you missed it. I highlighted the first part of it in my previous post.

I'll just go ahead and say it: Reading comprehension FAIL, to use the lingo of kids today. That was not me that posted that. Here, I'll go ahead and quote the original poster of that:

Originally Posted by M3Bimmer77

...
If the contract doesn't say anything about "in case of death" you are not responsible for anything! One suggestion is to start changing docs that your father owned or was co owner on, like the title of other cars, warranty deeds, mortgage, and so on.
...

As I said multiple times, IANAL, but yes, I agree with you that the above advice is wrong. However, as you seem to have missed, multiple times, especially when quoting it, it was not me who said that.

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I disagree with you on the social media publicity. BMW FS won't care and, unfortunately, this dispute won't have the same interest to the BMW community as a BMW authorized dealer welshing on a great deal earned by the highest bidder at an auction on a brand new M3.

As for this, I have submitted my arguments as to why you are wrong, succinctly summarized as 2008 is not 2015. Why you seem to miss that fact, and why you seem to be so argumentative towards advice that has a good chance of helping the OP, and very little chance of hurting his case, I'll just chalk it up to you being a lawyer, and thinking that being argumentative is a good trait. It probably is, in the courtroom, but in real life, not so much. Admitting when you are wrong in real life is generally much more important.

Regardless, I'm done addressing you, and will stick with my advice to the OP: take it to social media.

[MalibuBimmer]

You're right. I mixed up your social media advice with another poster's legal advice. For that I apologize.

As for the social media advice we disagree. I don't think this story has "legs" or, in the jargon of today, that it will "resonate." And even if it did I doubt BMW FS would do anything about it.

The best way to proceed is as I originally suggested.

[Mr. Hankey]

Hey all, I really appreciate everyone's input and help. No need to bicker over this, I can appreciate where everyone is coming from and have gotten a few ideas from the thread. It has been helpful.

I'm not one to jump to defcon 5 out of the gates. The dealership has really been an ally in this one and they are working on it. Like I said if they can sell it and make a profit, good for them (also they aren't paying BMW finance charges for it to sit on their lot currently, so isn't costing them anything).

Regarding social security question, it isn't obviously as cut and dry as I said. My moms payment did increase, but not to his full payment as she isn't full retirement age so is only getting a percentage. The drop in combined social security payment monthly to her is enough that she can't afford the lease payment, and eat. He wasn't irresponsible, he could afford the payment and had a bit of a buffer to have a nice few years of retirement.

I will see how it goes with the dealer, problem is I'm 8 hours away so tough to do this long distance. If I need to play hardball, I will play hardball...there are a lot of resources to bear here, but again against a faceless corporation who is playing statistics for every $1 they can recover.

[Mr. Hankey]

So here's an update and hopefully the last: Got my mom's estate attorney involved. Very quickly we learned that BMWFS couldn't really tell us much about the car as they had no proof that the car was returned to the dealership for over a month (so assumption was my mom still had possession of the car and therefore should still be paying).

Dealer should have assessed the car for damage and notified BMWFS through the computer system the day it was turned in to them (I had notified BMWFS by phone and faxed letter that same day, we signed papers that day as well at dealer so have proof car was returned). Once dealer reports this to BMWFS then they can then assign a value to the car and offer it to the dealer to buy from BMWFS (wholesale) for sale or BMWFS takes it back and off to auction. So the problem all along was the dealership never told BMWFS they had the car, yet were trying to sell it (again, if they could, great). What they were doing though is ensuring that my mom was still getting bills for the lease, plus some ridiculous finance charges (more than the payments). Attorney spoke to someone much higher up than I could get at BMWFS and was basically reassured that it would go away and told not to make any payments dated past turn-in date and not to pay any finance charges. Even if BMWFS sells the car at auction for way under what they consider its value (which she was told rarely happens anyway) BMWFS would review the case and in the event of a death typically write it off. Only in "special situations" will they go after the estate (i.e. car was trashed and would not sell anywhere near wholesale value).

Will take 2-4 months for BMWFS to auction it off and reconcile everything, so we will see. There is a chance that the estate will be responsible for some of the value of the car if sold for way under valued price, but sounds like not much of one, and any money owed cannot be more than the value of the remaining lease payments. So even if my mom got hosed for the full amount, it wouldn't be horrible in the end, and it would likely be much less than that if she did owe anything.

In any event this has really opened my eyes to leasing, and glad I have and will always continue to just buy my cars.

[Mandi90TT]

Thanks for the update. Hope everything goes smoothly

[kent11202]

I'm glad you are able to get some answers through your attorneys efforts but this entire thing still bugs me.

The fact that BMW says liability would be limited to no more than the amount of the remaining lease payments sounds like a company with zero compassion. This kind of situation has to be extremely rare. I am so distrustful in this situation, I can't help but wonder if the vehicle would get sold at wholesale value to some "buddy" of the dealership.

I mentioned this to a friend of mine and he told me what happened with his MBZ lease. He had leased it under his name only, got diagnosed with cancer and approached the dealership because his surviving spouse (if he bought the bullet) would not be able to make the payments.

Did MBZ jerk him around, threaten action or threaten to sell it for dirt cheap and bill her the difference? Not! A couple of days after the initial contact, they asked him to bring the car in. They actually took it off his hands at no cost to him - in fact, because the dealership/MBZ apparently have that little thing called compassion, they credited him with more than the trade in value so he also ended up with a ride home and received a check from MBZ a couple weeks later. He beat the cancer and returned as a customer.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by kent11202

I'm glad you are able to get some answers through your attorneys efforts but this entire thing still bugs me.

The fact that BMW says liability would be limited to no more than the amount of the remaining lease payments sounds like a company with zero compassion. This kind of situation has to be extremely rare. I am so distrustful in this situation, I can't help but wonder if the vehicle would get sold at wholesale value to some "buddy" of the dealership.

I mentioned this to a friend of mine and he told me what happened with his MBZ lease. He had leased it under his name only, got diagnosed with cancer and approached the dealership because his surviving spouse (if he bought the bullet) would not be able to make the payments.

Did MBZ jerk him around, threaten action or threaten to sell it for dirt cheap and bill her the difference? Not! A couple of days after the initial contact, they asked him to bring the car in. They actually took it off his hands at no cost to him - in fact, because the dealership/MBZ apparently have that little thing called compassion, they credited him with more than the trade in value so he also ended up with a ride home and received a check from MBZ a couple weeks later. He beat the cancer and returned as a customer.

Unfortunately there are fewer and fewer large companies willing or able to provide that type of compassion (or customer service) nowadays. BMW certainly is seemingly not one of them, and is such a big international bureaucracy that it acts stupidly sometimes. I guess in the end they don't care that anyone in my family--who can afford these cars--will never consider one again because of this. But there will always be someone else waiting in line to get one, because they're too big to fail. It will catch up to them, but that's not my battle or concern. I know their engineering is very focused, but with their huge push for market share and x number of cars on the road they have surely lost sight of what matters, and it's also reflected in their vehicles to some extent, just like Toyota did. The hybrids and electrics will have to save them from themselves cheapening all their other cars.

Other than that pointless rant, in the end I'm bothered by how my mother was treated by some know it all phone operator at BMWFS. He clearly was paying attention in the collections class. The financial end of it I unfortunately understand from their perspective, just disagree with the tactics, lack of communication, and why couldn't someone just explain this clearly the first time. 5 hours on the phone over all calls we made between BMWFS and the dealership...no one could give a concise or honest answer until an attorney got involved.

Despite that, this still isn't over...hopefully there's no $4500 bill for remaining lease payments that shows up 2-3 months from now...this remains in limbo until then.

[wdb]

Thanks for the update.

[MKSixer]

Thanks for the update.
Keeping this away from your mom in her time of extreme grief is exemplary and you are to be commended as a great son.
Cheers-mk

[kent11202]

Originally Posted by rhk118

Despite that, this still isn't over...hopefully there's no $4500 bill for remaining lease payments that shows up 2-3 months from now...this remains in limbo until then.

God, I am SO freaking pissed about this I can't believe it! If it's not too late, maybe your attorney can get a straight, and legally binding, statement from BMW that your Mom will owe NOTHING. If they don't agree to do that and say she will be liable for the $4,500 in remaining payments, take the freaking car back from the dealer, pay the payments (one at a time) and park it in the hope it rots as I suggested in previous post - it's no more expensive than what they are telling you now.

Maybe there is some sort of "Consumer Advocate" with a local TV show that might help?

If I had the $$$ to spare, I'd pay the damn payments for her and let it rot until the lease was up. At least then it would be worth even less and it would be THEIR problem whereas if you turn it in and pay off the lease now you are effectively subsidizing BMW.

This situation, as compared to my friend's MBZ experience, isn't exactly giving me warm and fuzzy feelings about BMW and I doubt I am alone in that given we have over 250,000 members on this board.

Rant over (at least for now)

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by rhk118

So here's an update and hopefully the last: Got my mom's estate attorney involved. Very quickly we learned that BMWFS couldn't really tell us much about the car as they had no proof that the car was returned to the dealership for over a month (so assumption was my mom still had possession of the car and therefore should still be paying).

Dealer should have assessed the car for damage and notified BMWFS through the computer system the day it was turned in to them (I had notified BMWFS by phone and faxed letter that same day, we signed papers that day as well at dealer so have proof car was returned). Once dealer reports this to BMWFS then they can then assign a value to the car and offer it to the dealer to buy from BMWFS (wholesale) for sale or BMWFS takes it back and off to auction. So the problem all along was the dealership never told BMWFS they had the car, yet were trying to sell it (again, if they could, great). What they were doing though is ensuring that my mom was still getting bills for the lease, plus some ridiculous finance charges (more than the payments). Attorney spoke to someone much higher up than I could get at BMWFS and was basically reassured that it would go away and told not to make any payments dated past turn-in date and not to pay any finance charges. Even if BMWFS sells the car at auction for way under what they consider its value (which she was told rarely happens anyway) BMWFS would review the case and in the event of a death typically write it off. Only in "special situations" will they go after the estate (i.e. car was trashed and would not sell anywhere near wholesale value).

Will take 2-4 months for BMWFS to auction it off and reconcile everything, so we will see. There is a chance that the estate will be responsible for some of the value of the car if sold for way under valued price, but sounds like not much of one, and any money owed cannot be more than the value of the remaining lease payments. So even if my mom got hosed for the full amount, it wouldn't be horrible in the end, and it would likely be much less than that if she did owe anything.

In any event this has really opened my eyes to leasing, and glad I have and will always continue to just buy my cars.

More importantly than the leasing vs. buying, when someone from BMW, or any other company, tells you something of such importance, like early termination of your auto lease, you absolutely need to get something in writing. "But Joe at BMW of Palookaville told me I could do this" won't get you very far; and I'm sure you can imagine that there are those customers that would try to take advantage of such a situation if it was that easy. I hope everything turns out ok--it must be miserable having to deal with this.

[shark715]

You might want to discuss with your attorney what would be the likely result if you simply ignore BMWs attempts to collect from your father's estate. The reality is that it doesn't sound like there is enough money involved that they would ever actually sue. I absolutely would've never voluntarily gave them a copy of the death certificate nor the will. Make it as difficult as possible for them, and the likely result is that they will just go away, despite that the lease no doubt contains a provision that they could sue the estate for all of their costs in collecting the amounts due. You need not be concerned about your father's estate's credit score.

While someone might comment that my suggestion is unethical, my response would be that the world is full of unethical people and companies, and my suggestion is to do upon others as others would do upon you.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by shark715

You might want to discuss with your attorney what would be the likely result if you simply ignore BMWs attempts to collect from your father's estate. The reality is that it doesn't sound like there is enough money involved that they would ever actually sue. I absolutely would've never voluntarily gave them a copy of the death certificate nor the will. Make it as difficult as possible for them, and the likely result is that they will just go away, despite that the lease no doubt contains a provision that they could sue the estate for all of their costs in collecting the amounts due. You need not be concerned about your father's estate's credit score.

While someone might comment that my suggestion is unethical, my response would be that the world is full of unethical people and companies, and my suggestion is to do upon others as others would do upon you.

http://www.eldercarelawjacksonville....s-die-florida/

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by tex2670

More importantly than the leasing vs. buying, when someone from BMW, or any other company, tells you something of such importance, like early termination of your auto lease, you absolutely need to get something in writing. "But Joe at BMW of Palookaville told me I could do this" won't get you very far; and I'm sure you can imagine that there are those customers that would try to take advantage of such a situation if it was that easy. I hope everything turns out ok--it must be miserable having to deal with this.

In retrospect when I was dealing with the acute aftermath (in complete shock mind you) I didn't have the awareness to get that in writing. BMW was one of at least 12 businesses/Insurance companies...etc. I was dealing with. There was a LOT of information to keep track of. When I made the call to them they literally made it seem like this happens all the time, they need a copy of the will and death certificate and notification as to which dealer the car was returned to and they would take it back. It seemed too good to be true...and it was.

Originally Posted by shark715

You might want to discuss with your attorney what would be the likely result if you simply ignore BMWs attempts to collect from your father's estate. The reality is that it doesn't sound like there is enough money involved that they would ever actually sue. I absolutely would've never voluntarily gave them a copy of the death certificate nor the will. Make it as difficult as possible for them, and the likely result is that they will just go away, despite that the lease no doubt contains a provision that they could sue the estate for all of their costs in collecting the amounts due. You need not be concerned about your father's estate's credit score.

While someone might comment that my suggestion is unethical, my response would be that the world is full of unethical people and companies, and my suggestion is to do upon others as others would do upon you.

Depends on the individual law of the state where the deceased lives as to what BMW can "go after" and whom they can "bill." The attorney made a couple of calls and wrote a couple of letters. She said just what you are saying after that. Ignore them. The mid-level BMWFS manager said the same...don't pay us, in my experience it will likely go away...then gave the disclaimer that "If anyone asks I didn't tell you that"...If they really want the money we will hear from a law firm in the next several months representing BMW...

Originally Posted by zx10guy

http://www.eldercarelawjacksonville....s-die-florida/

Thanks for the link, again state by state probate and estate laws are different as to what companies can do and who they can go after.

As far as I'm concerned this is over. There may be a bill from BMW or threats from a law firm acting on their behalf in a few months and there may not be. My mom is still distressed that this is "unfinished," as am I, but at this point we have done all we can do. Like I said before, if they come after my mom for any amount of money there won't be any rolling over here...but we will see how it goes, completely in their court (no pun intended).

[tturedraider]

So sorry for your loss and this mess you're having to deal with. This seems so weird, because, unless I'm mistaken, there is a clause in BMWFS leases that allows for early termination without penalty if a person moves out of the country during the lease term. Do you remember reading anything like that when you read the contract?

If I am correct about this it certainly seems they would make a similar concession for the death of a lessee, even though it is true most contracts are not released because of death.